I need serious help with this Gospel issue

[JesusServant]

Reformationist slightly touched on this as well in another thread, but I don't want to railroad it.

I have the hardest time understanding the simplest teaching in the Gospel. Whether one believes in free-will or predestination, there comes a problem.

We are told in the Word that love is unconditional and that God loves us. That means that God must love us unconditionally, right? That being said, if He loves us then how could He allow any of us to burn in an eternal hell?

Let's say you have a son, and some of you probably already do. You will love that son unconditionally no matter what mistakes or sins he commits in his life. And you would certainly do everything in your power to make life the best for him. You certainly would not want him to eternally be punished, because your love is unconditional.

So if God loves us, how could He create us, then allow us to burn in an eternal hell? Regardless of what we've done. I'm not saying we should all go on a killing spree and get to live in eternal bliss. I just have a hard time rationalizing these three things that are connected.

Please help...

Thanks

 

[love&forgiveness]

Reformationist slightly touched on this as well in another thread, but I don't want to railroad it.

I have the hardest time understanding the simplest teaching in the Gospel. Whether one believes in free-will or predestination, there comes a problem.

We are told in the Word that love is unconditional and that God loves us. That means that God must love us unconditionally, right? That being said, if He loves us then how could He allow any of us to burn in an eternal hell?

Let's say you have a son, and some of you probably already do. You will love that son unconditionally no matter what mistakes or sins he commits in his life. And you would certainly do everything in your power to make life the best for him. You certainly would not want him to eternally be punished, because your love is unconditional.

So if God loves us, how could He create us, then allow us to burn in an eternal hell? Regardless of what we've done. I'm not saying we should all go on a killing spree and get to live in eternal bliss. I just have a hard time rationalizing these three things that are connected.
Thanks

what if you had many children ,some who loved you and you could trust to help the others and obey what you tell them for their own good.

but then you have some who try pollute the others minds to disobey you ,they constantly ignore what you tell them for their own good.

what are you to do there's some who want your love and some who don't and try to lead others away from you.

now there is another thing you do ,you come to them as equals as a child of yourself ,you knowing all and able to obey all show them how it's done.
you then suffer the death that all the disobient choose and are guilty of.
you die the death of the disobedient to show them your love for them and that you've not forgotten them and would welcome them back with open arms ,if only they are willing to come back.

your children are divided but you love them all ,you teach the obiedeint ones to go after the disobedient ,and try to persuade them back ,and tell them that their father still loves them and tell them of what you did for them and that you want them back.

it's only those who want to be with you that can ,have you not done all you can for them.

those who chose not to be with you chose that themselves ,you 've still offered them the love that you always have.
they choose hell.
now what exactly hell is i'm not sure.

don't know if this will help in any way as we have not the understanding ,wisdom and love that God as.
only He knows all but what we do know is He is the greatest and His way is perfect ,what more could we want than to be with Him ,the one who offers us all and the only one who does offer us a love that no human is capable of or fully understanding really.
God bless.
paul

 

[SavedByGrace3]

The problem you are having is very common, and is seen in many people who try and understand God and their relationshop with God throught the principles of the "General Attributes of God".
Jesus came to show us the Father. He is the exact image of the Father. He is the "view" of the Father that God intends for us to use in our relationship with Him. If you take the "General Attributes of God", aka the "OMNIs", and try to buid your image of God upon that foundation, then you will be confused. This is why those who study theology are so subject to this problem. Most theology bases its' understanding of God on the GAoG rather than on Jesus. Those going down this road can find themselves practicing "mere theism" rather than Christianity.
Here are some tests to see if you are suffering from the errors of "mere theism"(answer y/n):
1. When you offer a prayer to God that is based on a promise you find in the Bible, do you think God might say no?
2. Do you find yourself having to get saved over and over again because of individual sins you commit?
3. Can you sin from your heart?
4. When you offer a prayer in the name of Jesus for a legitimate item such as health and having needs met, do you think God might say no?
5. Do you have to sin a little every day?
6. Does God initiate things like sickness, poverty, mental anguish, or demonic oppression to accomplish things in our lives?
7. Do you think you have to do things to improve upon your right standing before God.
8. Do you think that God is "to big" for us to know?
9. If a man reads the gospel in 1 Corin 15 and calls on the name of the Lord as described in Rom 10, can God decide not to save him?
10. Does God, by virtue of who He is, have a different standard of what is "good" than what we consider "good"?
11. Is God's standard of perfection to high for us?
12. You have repented and believed the gospel. Are you still plagued by doubts that you might not be one of the "chosen"?
13. Are your requests for benefits obtained by the suffering of Jesus on the cross still subject to the immediate and individual approval of God?
14. Can you change what you believe by force of will based on logic and reason?
16. Has God left anything undone toward the completion of your justification, redemption, or sanctification?
17. Is God counting our sins against us in regards to our relationship with Him?
18. Can God hear a prayer that is not offered up in faith?
19. If you sin a sin of the flesh, are you blocked from the throne of God?
20. Does an act of fornication cause you to be "un-born again"?

(There are many more... these are just off the top of my head)

If you find yourself answering yes to some of these questions, then your faith may be corrupted (or downgraded) to that of mere theism.

 

[Rafael]

You have to remember, God has chose to redeem (buy back) that which is already dead and cursed to die by its own choice. How much more love can He show over going to the cross and paying the price for sin? He has turned the tables on evil and made everything work together for good to those that love Him and are the called according to His purpose. God's omniscience is power we barely comprehend - knowing everything from begininng to end and standing outside of the temporal we are trapped in. By reason of His omniscience and this power we have benefit, in that He is able to take bad and turn it to good - such as what happened at the cross where Christ's suffering became blessings of eternal life to all the brethren of the first born. Trying to explain how He does this with His power is almost too much for words, although we try oft times in vain.

 

[JesusServant]

what if you had many children ,some who loved you and you could trust to help the others and obey what you tell them for their own good.

but then you have some who try pollute the others minds to disobey you ,they constantly ignore what you tell them for their own good.

what are you to do there's some who want your love and some who don't and try to lead others away from you.

now there is another thing you do ,you come to them as equals as a child of yourself ,you knowing all and able to obey all show them how it's done.
you then suffer the death that all the disobient choose and are guilty of.
you die the death of the disobedient to show them your love for them and that you've not forgotten them and would welcome them back with open arms ,if only they are willing to come back.

your children are divided but you love them all ,you teach the obiedeint ones to go after the disobedient ,and try to persuade them back ,and tell them that their father still loves them and tell them of what you did for them and that you want them back.

it's only those who want to be with you that can ,have you not done all you can for them.

those who chose not to be with you chose that themselves ,you 've still offered them the love that you always have.
they choose hell.
now what exactly hell is i'm not sure.

don't know if this will help in any way as we have not the understanding ,wisdom and love that God as.
only He knows all but what we do know is He is the greatest and His way is perfect ,what more could we want than to be with Him ,the one who offers us all and the only one who does offer us a love that no human is capable of or fully understanding really.
God bless.
paul

Thanks for your response Paul, it's much appreciated and I've considered what you are saying. But if I love my children unconditionally and want them to love me unconditionally then I cannot threaten them into loving me with the threat of torment. That is fear and we are taught in Scripture that love works out fear for fear is not love. Therefor, we have a paradox.

 

[Oblio]

But if I love my children unconditionally and want them to love me unconditionally then I cannot threaten them into loving me with the threat of torment. That is fear and we are taught in Scripture that love works out fear for fear is not love.

This is one of the reasons why the Western evangelical model of sinners in the hand of an angry God is so offensive to historic Apostolic Christianity. The Orthodox view is that Christ saves us from eternal separation rather than basking in communion with His love. Sin and the fall is a disease, Christ is the Great Physician that loves us and heals us.

 

[JesusServant]

The problem you are having is very common, and is seen in many people who try and understand God and their relationshop with God throught the principles of the "General Attributes of God".
Jesus came to show us the Father. He is the exact image of the Father. He is the "view" of the Father that God intends for us to use in our relationship with Him. If you take the "General Attributes of God", aka the "OMNIs", and try to buid your image of God upon that foundation, then you will be confused. This is why those who study theology are so subject to this problem. Most theology bases its' understanding of God on the GAoG rather than on Jesus. Those going down this road can find themselves practicing "mere theism" rather than Christianity.
Here are some tests to see if you are suffering from the errors of "mere theism"(answer y/n):
1. When you offer a prayer to God that is based on a promise you find in the Bible, do you think God might say no?
2. Do you find yourself having to get saved over and over again because of individual sins you commit?
3. Can you sin from your heart?
4. When you offer a prayer in the name of Jesus for a legitimate item such as health and having needs met, do you think God might say no?
5. Do you have to sin a little every day?
6. Does God initiate things like sickness, poverty, mental anguish, or demonic oppression to accomplish things in our lives?
7. Do you think you have to do things to improve upon your right standing before God.
8. Do you think that God is "to big" for us to know?
9. If a man reads the gospel in 1 Corin 15 and calls on the name of the Lord as described in Rom 10, can God decide not to save him?
10. Does God, by virtue of who He is, have a different standard of what is "good" than what we consider "good"?
11. Is God's standard of perfection to high for us?
12. You have repented and believed the gospel. Are you still plagued by doubts that you might not be one of the "chosen"?
13. Are your requests for benefits obtained by the suffering of Jesus on the cross still subject to the immediate and individual approval of God?
14. Can you change what you believe by force of will based on logic and reason?
16. Has God left anything undone toward the completion of your justification, redemption, or sanctification?
17. Is God counting our sins against us in regards to our relationship with Him?
18. Can God hear a prayer that is not offered up in faith?
19. If you sin a sin of the flesh, are you blocked from the throne of God?
20. Does an act of fornication cause you to be "un-born again"?

(There are many more... these are just off the top of my head)

If you find yourself answering yes to some of these questions, then your faith may be corrupted (or downgraded) to that of mere theism.

1) Only if He knows that what I ask is not for my own good and He chooses no as what is best for me (Thy will be done) - otherwise the answer will always be yes.

2) No. I firmly believe in what God did for me and that my baptism was very powerful and real. There is no need to be 'saved' again, God's mercy is sufficient. Now I have to do my part and line up my own life so that it is pleasing to God. Something I (and all believers) struggle with.

3) No. My sins are of the flesh, but my heart is always at odds with any sin in my life.

4) Of course not. As I matter of fact I don't bother praying for health as God promises it to me. However, I do pray for other believers' health as I see many of them suffering. We could get on a whole other discussion here...

5) No.

6) Of course not.

7) In my mind, yes. I imagine in God's mind, no. However, the Gospel teaches that we must be presentable unto God. A whole other discussion

8) Trick question. He is too vast for our current understanding, however, we can know His character by Jesus' example.

9) No, or He is going against His word. But I can point out 100+ scriptures that hint otherwise and give me reason to be asking the question I did in the first place.

10) Yes.

11) See 10. If God has a different standard of being good or perfect, then how could we possibly achieve that on our own?

12) Hmmm. Tough one. MOst of the time I don't worry about it. Heck, I don't worry at all (worry is a sin). However, I suppose I allow others to influence me and take stabs at my being "saved" or "regenerate". But in my heart, I believe God will not forsake me.

13) They should not be, no.

14) Say what? Lost me there buddy.

16) (You skipped 15) I don't know.

17) I hope not, or I'm toast.

18) He hears all prayers.

19) No.

20) No.

 

[JesusServant]

You have to remember, God has chose to redeem (buy back) that which is already dead and cursed to die by its own choice.

Not necessarily. I know this sounds good, but I never chose to be cursed and die. And I know none of the unbelievers choose that.

How much more love can He show over going to the cross and paying the price for sin? He has turned the tables on evil and made everything work together for good to those that love Him and are the called according to His purpose.

Another thing that I believe through faith but is impossible to locically understand when you see some of the things believers go through. I guess we have to remember that gold is made through refining fire.

God's omniscience is power we barely comprehend - knowing everything from begininng to end and standing outside of the temporal we are trapped in. By reason of His omniscience and this power we have benefit, in that He is able to take bad and turn it to good - such as what happened at the cross where Christ's suffering became blessings of eternal life to all the brethren of the first born. Trying to explain how He does this with His power is almost too much for words, although we try oft times in vain.

I'm sorry, but none of this answers my question. I appreciate your post and time, but it's hard for me to the see the "unconditional love" when all churches tell you there are conditions. It's just frustrating.

 

[love&forgiveness]

Thanks for your response Paul, it's much appreciated and I've considered what you are saying. But if I love my children unconditionally and want them to love me unconditionally then I cannot threaten them into loving me with the threat of torment. That is fear and we are taught in Scripture that love works out fear for fear is not love. Therefor, we have a paradox.

so if you children do wrong ,have no respect for you ,don't listen or obey a thing you tell them ,hurt your other children maybe even kill them ,what do you do?

you've shown them love already as i tried to explain in my other post ,not a great example but the best i can think of at the moment.

what do you do with these rebelleous children now?
what about the good children who want to obey you what do you these these?
the good children have accepted your love and maybe some of those use to be rebellious but saw the error of their ways through your love for them as explained in last post.

what do you do with them all after a certain amount time (as in our lives on earth)?

don't forget they reaped what they sowed of the last life ,their mindsets and hearts or souls are as they were before their time is up (or they die that life).

what do you now do with these two different people who have lived in the same world with the same two choices ,they are now what they are from how they lived their other life?

if you give them yet another chance won't everything be the same again and start all over again in this life ,would they be just as satan was?

that's the best i can do for now .
God bless.
paul

 

[Josh1]

It's pretty simple really. Say you had a child and you told him not to kill this person that they hated for it would take his physical life because the authorities would take him to jail. (spiritual life dead). Your son or daughter disobeys you and kills the person. You see no way to help him but to plead your case before the judge. The judge decides to pardon your child, but only if your child will accept the pardon.

We turned away from God; if you read the Bible, then you would understand that God wants to be worshipped by a free will, not by puppets. He is a God of judgment and mercy, but God could not do anything for the unsaved because they did not want him too. He does not go against your free will. The unsaved choose their destiny. They are not Gods child as you called them earlier, they are satans.(they became satans because they sinned and God can not be joint with sinners, for He is perfect) The only way to become joint heirs to God is accept his will. He provided a pardon for all of us, some will accept, others won't accept. Who would fear God if he didn't come through on His promises? God does love them, but they got to accept. Just like the father wanted and pleaded with his son or daughter to accept the pardon, if they didn't accept, then they chose their destiny. That does not mean their father did not love them. The logic of this argument is faulty. I pray that you can understand. God Bless.

 

[Symes]

JesusServant

Do you ever ave to discipline your children? God must discipline us with love and justice. Along with love God also has the sin problem to contend with. There aare angels and unfallen worlds looking towards earth to see what will happen. The big picture is far greater thaan many understand.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

I wanted address each yes, not according to you personally, but rather according to how the "General Attributes of God" can shipwreak our faith in the gospel.

1. When you offer a prayer to God that is based on a promise you find in the Bible, do you think God might say no?
1) Only if He knows that what I ask is not for my own good and He chooses no as what is best for me (Thy will be done) - otherwise the answer will always be yes.

Look at what the gospel says:
2 Corinthians 1:20 WNT
20 For all the promises of God, whatever their number, have their confirmation in Him; and for this reason through Him also our "Amen" acknowledges their truth and promotes the glory of God through our faith.
Jesus has made all the promises of God good to us. This is the view of God (and the will of God) that Jesus wants us to have. Some might use the "General Attributes of God" to say that this is not true for all. God is still sovereign and does not have to honor the work of Jesus in this regard. The devil raises the question "God is sovereign.... therefore does He have to honor the work of Jesus?" He uses religion to trip us up and doubt the promises that Jesus has made good.

8. Do you think that God is "to big" for us to know?
8) Trick question. He is too vast for our current understanding, however, we can know His character by Jesus' example.

Not really a trick question bro. Jesus came to show us the Father. He is the exact image of the Father. Jesus only and always did what the Father would do. When we see Jesus, we see the Father. Some take the "General Attributes of God" and say that the Omni-ness of God renders Him unknowable. We need to believe Jesus, that He was successful in showing us the Father.

John 14:7-10 KJV
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Heb 1
3 His Son is the reflection of God's glory and the exact likeness of God's being

God intends for us to see and know Him through the person of Jesus. We can know everything we have to know about God. As followers of Jesus, we need to decide that He was successful.... He has shown us the Father, and we know Him.

10. Does God, by virtue of who He is, have a different standard of what is "good" than what we consider "good"?
10) Yes.

I am always reminded of the proof text of this concept:
Isaiah 55:8-9 GW
8 "My thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways," declares the LORD.
9 "Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts."

These verses are quoted to mean that our Fathers' higher thoughts are somehow worse thoughts, and his ways are somehow hurtful ways. If only they would read on they would see that these verses are saying the exact opposite:

Isaiah 55:10-13 GW
10 "Rain and snow come down from the sky. They do not go back again until they water the earth. They make it sprout and grow so that it produces seed for farmers and food for people to eat.
11 My word, which comes from my mouth, is like the rain and snow. It will not come back to me without results. It will accomplish whatever I want and achieve whatever I send it to do."
12 You will go out with joy and be led out in peace. The mountains and the hills will break into songs of joy in your presence, and all the trees will clap their hands.
13 Cypress trees will grow where thornbushes grew. Myrtle trees will grow where briars grew. This will be a reminder of the LORD'S name and an everlasting sign that will never be destroyed.

Gods ways send rain to water the land so that there will be crops and food.
His ways includes joy and peace(instead of the sorrow and turmoil we see from men).
His ways includes mountains and hills that break out into song... not woe.
The trees clap thier hands because of His ways.
There are cypress trees instead of thornbushes, and byrtle bushes instead of briars.
All this is a tribute to His name!

The ways and thoughts of God are better. Higher is better, not worse. Again we see the "General Attributes of God" being used to overrule the revelation of God that is in Jesus. Higher is not worse... it is better.

James 1:17 GW
17 Every good present and every perfect gift comes from above, from the Father who made the sun, moon, and stars. The Father doesn't change like the shifting shadows produced by the sun and the moon.
Good things come from God... and there is no changing this. It is always good.

11. Is God's standard of perfection to high for us?
11) See 10. If God has a different standard of being good or perfect, then how could we possibly achieve that on our own?

If good and evil can somehow be incorporated into a new definition of perfection, then we are truly in dire straits. Jesus called us to be perfect even as our Father in heaven is perfect. By placing God above His own definition of good, the "General Attributes of God" effectively remove all concept of what good and evil are. How are we to act if we are to be perfect in the same way He is? If His brand of good includes evil... then where do we go next. It is this sort of logic that brings believers into great confusion.

12. You have repented and believed the gospel. Are you still plagued by doubts that you might not be one of the "chosen"?
12) Hmmm. Tough one. MOst of the time I don't worry about it. Heck, I don't worry at all (worry is a sin). However, I suppose I allow others to influence me and take stabs at my being "saved" or "regenerate". But in my heart, I believe God will not forsake me.

This goes back to a truth that we rarely seen presented by those who promote the "General Attributes of God." This truth is the universal Lordship of Jesus. The GAoG do not hold that Jesus is Lord and Christ over all. It is usually presented that He is only Lord over those that "make him Lord" and He is only Christ over those who ask Him to be. What does the scripture say?

Acts 2:36 GW
36 "All the people of Israel should know beyond a doubt that God made Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Jesus is Lord and Christ, not by some decision on our part, but by a direct decree of God. He is Lord of all!
Acts 10:36 KJV
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)
Romans 14:9 WNT
9 For this was the purpose of Christ's dying and coming to life--namely that He might be Lord both of the dead and the living.
Romans 10:12 WEB
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.


There is nothing we can do to stop Him from being Lord and Christ. The devil in his subtle way suggests to people that we have a choice. In this it is suggested that Jesus is in fact not Lord and Christ. To invite someone to "make Him Lord" only introduces the possibly of a rejection or denial of His God appointed Lordship. This is not what God wants us to do. We are simply to tell people who the Lord is (his name) and tell them to call on that name for salvation.
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on him.

14. Can you change what you believe by force of will based on logic and reason?
14) Say what? Lost me there buddy.

Faith is not a decision. It is a revelation from Christ into our hearts by the Spirit. We are quite helpless and at the mercy of the truth that is revealed to us. The entire concept behind the
"General Attributes of God" is that we can by learning and logic somehow increase faith, increase spirituality, and from a natural perspective come to understand God. We certainly should renew our minds according to the scripture... but that is not faith.

17. Is God counting our sins against us in regards to our relationship with Him?
17) I hope not, or I'm toast.

No need to hope. We do not have to hope for something that has already been done. Once again the "General Attributes of God" place God into a decision making process that the gospel says is not longer taking place. It is finished. There is nothing left for Him to do, say, or decide. It was all decided when Jesus took the cup. The will of God was followed and fulfilled on that day when He went to the cross.

John 1:29 WNT
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and exclaimed, "Look, that is the Lamb of God who is to take away the sin of the world!
If He took it away, then it is gone.

2 Corinthians 5:19 WNT
19 We are to tell how God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not charging men's transgressions to their account, and that He has entrusted to us the Message of this reconciliation.
He is not charging them against us.

This extends to the whole world:
1 John 2:2 WNT
2 and He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

18. Can God hear a prayer that is not offered up in faith?
18) He hears all prayers.

I suppose the word "listen" would be better than "hear."

1 John 5:14-15 KJV
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.

 

[JesusServant]

...................

John 1:29 WNT
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and exclaimed, "Look, that is the Lamb of God who is to take away the sin of the world!
If He took it away, then it is gone.

You misunderstood me in some of my answers my friend. For example, we completely agreed on number 8. There is nothing you said that I disagree with. And I'm short on time, or I would elaborate.

I quoted this piece of your post as I completely agree and have to be reminded of this from time to time. Sometimes I remind others of this. Sometimes, I need to be reminded, so thank you.

 

[JesusServant]

It still disturbs me that the alternative to loving God seems to be burning in Hell. That's just hard for me to swallow. There has to be an explanation.

I thank all of you for your posts, but I am seeing the same answers I've seen time and time again, and it still makes no sense to me logically.

 

[love&forgiveness]

we are answerable to God and His laws ,God is above all and answerable to no one
this life is the only chance we have to prove our love for God.
we choose to live with God or without in this life and that decision will also carry through to the next.
we have the choice ,the unbeliever should be fearful.
but the believer has nothing to fear.
i think we have to teach the two just as God teaches us.
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth ,Jesus taught this.
Jesus spoke some very chilling words ,He spoke these things out of love ,to warn people.
is it loving not to warn of these things?
there are two ways we are to warn of the one and teach and be examples of the other.
i don't think there is anything wrong to be God fearing people it's out of respect to His greatness and power.
fear no man yes ,fear not the things of the world yes ,but to not fear God at all.
it seems a lack of respect to me to have no fear of Gods power.
and there is plenty to be fearful of if you we do not love Him above all things
this world will have us decieved ,it gives us it's version of what love is ,we are not to obey the world but to obey the word of God.
the world as not more love than God ,God is love and as demonstrated this.
the world claims to be changing for the better and claims to be more loving ,be not decieved.
the world teaches us to do as we please and please ourselves.
the saying today is ,it's o.k. it's not hurting anyone else.
be not decieved by these teachings.
these teachings will decieve many into a false understanding of love.
God is love and is word is truth ,stray not from His word.
the world teaches of the worldly love ,but God teaches of Godly love.
God bless.
paul

 

[Carico]

Jesus said "He who seeks, will find." That is not only a promise, it is a fact. God does not plant the desire in someone to let him drown. A"sk and the door will be open." If you have the desire, take comfort in the fact that you've been chosen.

 

[Carico]

We can't choose to love Him if we aren't called anyway. So the threat of torment has nothing to do with it. If God is drawing us, then we will find Him, period. If He is not, then we won't. It is only when we find Him that our love begins. Our love comes out of gratitude that He loves us. It is not co-erced. Many people don't care if they are tormented as is very obvious in the non-Christian categories. The ones who are if they go to heel, are the ones who feel convicted and want redemption anyway.

 

[Josh1]

JesusServant:

It still disturbs me that the alternative to loving God seems to be burning in Hell. That's just hard for me to swallow. There has to be an explanation.

I thank all of you for your posts, but I am seeing the same answers I've seen time and time again, and it still makes no sense to me logically.


I ask you to study this out. We made the choice, not God. It is not His decision. We have all gave awesome explantions that has answered your question time and time again. I don't see how you can't understand. If everything was good then we would have no choice, vice versa. God gave us a choice and we chose the wrong one, but in his loving mercy, gave us another chance. How can you not understand? He does not want to be worshipped by puppets. Whosoever will gospel. God Bless.

 

[Josh1]

Btw, Hell was created for the devil and his angels. When we chose the devils side then we chose hell.When Adam sinned, he became an imperfect being. God can not have an imperfect being in heaven, so therefore unless we choose Jesus to wash away our sins, then we get to go the alternate place. God Bless.

 

[BBAS 64]

Reformationist slightly touched on this as well in another thread, but I don't want to railroad it.

I have the hardest time understanding the simplest teaching in the Gospel. Whether one believes in free-will or predestination, there comes a problem.

We are told in the Word that love is unconditional and that God loves us. That means that God must love us unconditionally, right? That being said, if He loves us then how could He allow any of us to burn in an eternal hell?

Let's say you have a son, and some of you probably already do. You will love that son unconditionally no matter what mistakes or sins he commits in his life. And you would certainly do everything in your power to make life the best for him. You certainly would not want him to eternally be punished, because your love is unconditional.

So if God loves us, how could He create us, then allow us to burn in an eternal hell? Regardless of what we've done. I'm not saying we should all go on a killing spree and get to live in eternal bliss. I just have a hard time rationalizing these three things that are connected.

Please help...

Thanks

Good Day JS,

I will do my best to help, though I know it will pale in comparision to Don's response to the question you raise "it is a good one". Your attributation of God's love is a good one, But God's love is not the primary attribute we assoicate with God for if we were to do so we would fall into a universalism style of salvation unsupported by the Scripture. In deserning God we IMO must start with his holiness and righteness.

I do have a son so I can understand where you are comming from in you point of veiw. When my son started to walk I allowed his to slip and fall and get hurt even to the point of bleeding. Some could say that that was cruel and unloving on my part to allow this to happen, but why did I allow these things to occur in this growing process of my son? Because I knew that this was nessary in the progress of his growth, and I could all way save him or help him if he pushed the limits of what I felt he was capabilty. If the occansion a rose where he tried something that was above my abilty to provide for his saftey I would not allow such a thing to take place on his part.

In as far as God's view of his children I see this as a good picture. He can and will provide all for his children in all curcumstances because he can save us from anything including his wrath. Thus the attoning work of Christ oin the cross as the LAMB OF GOD.

I question now comes to who is classifed as the children of GOD.

Well the basis of the question starts in the fact that all have sinned this princlple is show to us though out the Scripture. So God would be Just in his comdemnation of all. The Scripture does not theach that this is the plan of God even though it is the just jugment upon all man kind.

The scripture teachs that some will perish and some will not. The identy of those who will not are seen clearly in John chapter 6.

I know from my POV this can be a harsh, and some time I do not like the implications of this. None the less weather or not it is nice or fair it is what God says it is.

God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy who am I to inquire as to the reason behind this principle. We all deserve to be given the justice that God proclaims. But he gives us mercy instead, if for some reason mercy is what we deserved that it would cease to be mercy.


Hope this helps,

ing for understanding

For His Glory Alone!


BBAS