I keep being told that God objects to abortion...

BNR32FAN said:

The bakery pays taxes to so I don’t see how this is even relevant. Each person is paying their part in taxes. If I’m not mistaken self employment tax is higher than what a working individual pays.

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I guess that doesn't matter. Because gays pay taxes they are therefore entitled to everyone's services.

What an argument.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

I guess that doesn't matter. Because gays pay taxes they are therefore entitled to everyone's services.

What an argument.

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And the counter argument is "force gays to pay taxes, while simultaneously allowing them to be discriminated against by those their tax dollars fund.."

I know which side I'm more comfortable supporting.

parousia70 said:

And the counter argument is "force gays to pay taxes, while simultaneously allowing them to be discriminated against by those their tax dollars fund.."

I know which side I'm more comfortable supporting.

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How is the bakery funded by tax dollars when they pay taxes?

BNR32FAN said:

The bakery pays taxes to so I don’t see how this is even relevant. Each person is paying their part in taxes. If I’m not mistaken self employment tax is higher than what a working individual pays.

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If the bakery bought and built is very own interstate highway system, launched its own navy, funded it's own Fire, police, EMT, built, funded and operated its own k-12 education system from which it drew its workforce from, laid it's own phone and internet lines, etc..your point would be valid.

But it can't do that all by itself.. it needs the investment of ALL OF US (even the gays and the blacks and anyone else they find "icky") to be able to enjoy all those things it REQUIRES in order to hang up a shingle and say "we're open for business".

parousia70 said:

And the counter argument is "force gays to pay taxes, while simultaneously allowing them to be discriminated against by those their tax dollars fund.."

I know which side I'm more comfortable supporting.

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Literally everyone who works is forced to pay taxes. You're the only one here comfortable with forcing one particular group to do something they don't want to do. That is, Christians must be forced to comply with abortion, with homosexuality with any of the liberal priorities you favour.

Your position would be more consistent if you were okay with forcing every creative person to do something they don't want to do but that isn't your position. At least I don't believe that's your position because I couldn't imagine you being okay with forcing a pro-choice graphic designer to make a pro-life flier.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Literally everyone who works is forced to pay taxes. You're the only one here comfortable with forcing one particular group to do something they don't want to do. That is, Christians must be forced to comply with abortion, with homosexuality with any of the liberal priorities you favour.

Your position would be more consistent if you were okay with forcing every creative person to do something they don't want to do but that isn't your position. At least I don't believe that's your position because I couldn't imagine you being okay with forcing a pro-choice graphic designer to make a pro-life flier.

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Its about offering gays the same, off the shelf product you offer to heteros.

If you offer Wedding cakes to hetero's, then guess what?
So in that sense, yes... If I were pro choice personally, and ran a flyer company, I'd gladly charge pro lifers to make pro life flyers all day.

Enterprise, by nature, is Amoral. If I make and sell lightswitches, it makes no difference to the moral makeup of my business what goes on inside the room that they are installed into. It likewise has ZERO effect on my own moral compass.
I make a lightswitch, I sell it to you. You install it into your Church? great? into you Synagogue? great. Into your Mosque? great. into your S&M dungeon? great. Into your NICU? Great. Into your Satanic Temple? Great. Into your Marijuana grow room? great. Into your Long term care facility? great. into your Homeless shelter? great. into Maralago? great. I'm in business to sell lightswitches. Lightswitches are amoral. And mine are very artistic... I put a lot of creativity into them. They are beautiful.

I'm not in business to pass judgment on, or even care where you use them after you purchase them. I need to focus on selling you more of them, I don't have time to care where people use them, as long as more and more people DO use them, as many as possible. I want to corner the market, which requires everyone of every stripe buy and use my beautifully creative lightswitches. I didn't go into business, nor will I grow my business and keep it profitable (which is a requirement, by law, for a business) by refusing to do business with a certain segment of the population I happen to find "icky". I want ALL people to buy my lightswitches, even the icky people. And I will happily bury my competition who only wants to sell their lightswitches to "morally upstanding citizens..."

Unless you are prepared to argue that Gun manufacturers are morally, or even legally on the hook for mass shootings, you argument holds no water.

Its not about the straw man of requiring a sculptor to change the oil in your car as you appear to want to falsely frame my argument.....

parousia70 said:

Its about offering gays the same, off the shelf product you offer to heteros.

If you offer Wedding cakes to hetero's, then guess what?

Its not about the straw man of requiring a sculptor to change the oil in your car as you appear to want to falsely frame my argument.....

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If I recall, in any of these cases regarding cakes the particular point of complaint has always been the unwillingness of the owners to make specific custom cakes for the person. That is, the gays wanted a specifically and specially made cake and the owner refused upon learning that it was for a homosexual event. At least with Jack Phillips. He also refused to make Halloween cakes and erotic cakes as well I think. He also allowed anyone to walk in and buy what was offered in the display cabinet.

Also, how is what I said a strawman? Would you force a pro-choice creative to produce a work they intellectually cannot support? I doubt it. You seem far too leftist for that.

This derailing has gone on long enough hasn't it? Are you able to answer my original question? I've conceded (for the sake of argument) that a majority of abortions are not for convenience purposes. Why are you opposed to outlawing the convenient abortions? As a Catholic should you not want to limit abortion as much as possible considering how evil it is?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

This derailing has gone on long enough hasn't it?

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Sure.. there are plenty of threads about Christian bakeries that want special rights to have their cake and eat it too...

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Why are you opposed to outlawing the convenient abortions? As a Catholic should you not want to limit abortion as much as possible considering how evil it is?

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Where did you find me say I was opposed to that?

parousia70 said:

If the bakery bought and built is very own interstate highway system, launched its own navy, funded it's own Fire, police, EMT, built, funded and operated its own k-12 education system from which it drew its workforce from, laid it's own phone and internet lines, etc..your point would be valid.

But it can't do that all by itself.. it needs the investment of ALL OF US (even the gays and the blacks and anyone else they find "icky") to be able to enjoy all those things it REQUIRES in order to hang up a shingle and say "we're open for business".

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Oh, so because the gay person paid taxes the baker loses his freedom of religion even tho the baker also paid taxes?

BNR32FAN said:

Oh, so because the gay person paid taxes the baker loses his freedom of religion even tho the baker also paid taxes?

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How do you figure that?
The Butcher, Baker or candlestick maker remains free to worship the God (or Gods) of His/Her/Their choice.

That said entrepreneur chooses to undertake a Capitalist Enterprise, which is by definition a non-religious, a-moral endeavor, is wholly separate and distinct from His ability to worship freely.

The fact I sell lightswitches has nothing to do with who and how I choose to Worship. Nor does my being lawfully restricted from refusing to sell a married gay couple a lightswitch for their bedroom infringe upon my freedom to worship the deity of my choosing.

In our society, when government requires me, by threat of violence and force, to pay into the pool that your widget business must pull from to operate, you don't then get to say you wont sell me your widget because you think I might be putting my willy somewhere you believe your God tells me not to or you think is icky.

In this country 'Freedom of religion' is nowhere defined as the ability of you to Force your religious views on me, by requiring I comport to them before you will do business with me, when I am already required to fund the infrastructure your business relies upon, and indeed can not operate without.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Also, how is what I said a strawman? Would you force a pro-choice creative to produce a work they intellectually cannot support?

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Looks like you answered your own question.

I doubt it. You seem far too leftist for that.

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It's "Leftist" to Support a Christian Baker in His bid to refuse to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple?

That's a new one. Creative for sure.

parousia70 said:

How do you figure that?
The Butcher, Baker or candlestick maker remains free to worship the God (or Gods) of His/Her/Their choice.

That said entrepreneur chooses to undertake a Capitalist Enterprise, which is by definition a non-religious, a-moral endeavor, is wholly separate and distinct from His ability to worship freely.

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Being force to participate in a marriage that is unholy is not freedom of religion. Having the freedom to not participate is freedom of religion.