I have got questions for you!!!!!!!!!

mlqurgw · Jan 17, 2009

DarkNLovely said:
Wait a minute! Hold on, hold on! I thought that Limited Atonement meant that you believe that God chose certain people to go to heaven and certain people to go to hell. So the reason I asked "Do you do missions?" is because if we are all destined for our fate anyway, what's the point? But are you telling me now that when you say "Christ died for the elect!" You mean that he died for those who choose salvation, and not necessarily those He hand-picked? I'm so confusued! My poor little brain!

You are confused because of what you have heard that is false accusations against Calvinism. It confuses because the truth is so simple. Calvinists believe that Adam fell in the Garden and by that Fall plunged all his posterity into the ruin of total depravity. That doesn't mean that all men( used in the generic sense)act as depraved as they are but that the effect of spiritual death affects us in total. God in mercy chose some, based on His sovereign will alone not on any foreseen faith, from before the foundation of the world to be the objects of His love and gave them to His Son in a Covenant of Grace. The Son came into the world and actually accomplished the redemption of all those given to Him in sovereign election. The Spirit makes all those elect sinners who have been redeemed by Christ to hear the Word of the gospel of their salvation and applies it to their hearts in effectual mercy. Calvinists evangelize because we do not know who are elect and who aren't. We preach the Gospel of salvation accomplished by the death of Christ to all men because we actually, contrary to what is said about us, do love them. We just don't compromise the message of the Gospel out of a supposed love for them. We preach the Gospel to all men because we are commanded to. Unconditional Election and Particular Redemption does not teach that any sinner who wants to trust Christ can't because he may not be elect. The truth is that any sinner who sees his need of Christ and believes did so because God chose him, Christ died for him and the Spirit made him believe. Election doesn't keep anyone out who wants in and doesn't put anyone in who doesn't want to be there.

Spectre01 · Jan 17, 2009

"I understand that there is the belief in Limited Atonement so do you guys do missions or try to convert others or anything like that?"

I used to wonder about this same question before I looked into Calvinism/Reformed theology, and I have to say that looking at it from a Calvinistic view makes more sense to me. Some people would ask you, "If certain people are predestined to here or there, whats the point in evangelism?". But the Bible clearly tells us that no man in his natural state seeks after God. Since that is true, Calvinists would be more prone to evangelize, because they know that God has indeed predestined His elect to be saved, which means that the evangelist is ultimately guaranteed success in his work.

DD2008 · Jan 17, 2009

Post deleted

arunma · Jan 17, 2009

DarkNLovely said:
Wait a minute! Hold on, hold on! I thought that Limited Atonement meant that you believe that God chose certain people to go to heaven and certain people to go to hell. So the reason I asked "Do you do missions?" is because if we are all destined for our fate anyway, what's the point? But are you telling me now that when you say "Christ died for the elect!" You mean that he died for those who choose salvation, and not necessarily those He hand-picked? I'm so confusued! My poor little brain!

Many people think that Biblical doctrine precludes human free will. This is not true. The Scriptures teach that God has the ability and the right to override human free will in order to bring a person to faith in Christ, but this does no negate the fact that we have autonomy and can be held responsible for our actions. The Bible teaches in Romans 10 that salvation comes by hearing the word of Christ. This is why missions and evangelism are of the utmost importance.

cygnusx1 · Jan 17, 2009

Let us be clear about Limited atonement (I prefer Definite Atonement) ;

If God decided , on top of those elected to be saved , another million souls , another thousand , another hundred , even just another ONE person , Christ would NOT have to die again in order to save that ONE soul !

There is a universality in the atonement , in the sense that it is a perfect atonement suitable for all sinners , hence we have every reason to preach salvation ACCOMPLISHED as well as PROPOSED to everyone !

The fact that the atonement is efficacious ONLY for those saved (the elect) in no way diminishes it's universal suitability and sufficiency FOR EVERY SINNER.

The Gospel is a wide as "whosoever" and as narrow as "whosoever will" .

DarkNLovely · Jan 18, 2009

mlqurgw said:
You are confused because of what you have heard that is false accusations against Calvinism. It confuses because the truth is so simple. Calvinists believe that Adam fell in the Garden and by that Fall plunged all his posterity into the ruin of total depravity. That doesn't mean that all men( used in the generic sense)act as depraved as they are but that the effect of spiritual death affects us in total. God in mercy chose some, based on His sovereign will alone not on any foreseen faith, from before the foundation of the world to be the objects of His love and gave them to His Son in a Covenant of Grace. The Son came into the world and actually accomplished the redemption of all those given to Him in sovereign election. The Spirit makes all those elect sinners who have been redeemed by Christ to hear the Word of the gospel of their salvation and applies it to their hearts in effectual mercy. Calvinists evangelize because we do not know who are elect and who aren't. We preach the Gospel of salvation accomplished by the death of Christ to all men because we actually, contrary to what is said about us, do love them. We just don't compromise the message of the Gospel out of a supposed love for them. We preach the Gospel to all men because we are commanded to. Unconditional Election and Particular Redemption does not teach that any sinner who wants to trust Christ can't because he may not be elect. The truth is that any sinner who sees his need of Christ and believes did so because God chose him, Christ died for him and the Spirit made him believe. Election doesn't keep anyone out who wants in and doesn't put anyone in who doesn't want to be there.

That still sounds like what I said before, that God has only chosen certain people to be elect and not others, which means that because the non-elect can not choose Christ and His Salvation because of total depravity, the others must have been chosen for hell, right? No offense, but this is why I don't believe in original sin. Funny, I was talking to the Lutherans about this very thing, and what you have just described here is pretty much what they told me about their beliefs. I don't think I'm ever gonna figure this one out.

DD2008 · Jan 18, 2009

DarkNLovely said:
That still sounds like what I said before, that God has only chosen certain people to be elect and not others, which means that because the non-elect can not choose Christ and His Salvation because of total depravity, the others must have been chosen for hell, right? No offense, but this is why I don't believe in original sin. Funny, I was talking to the Lutherans about this very thing, and what you have just described here is pretty much what they told me about their beliefs. I don't think I'm ever gonna figure this one out.

Try these lectures. I think they are very good. You will need to have sound on your computer.

R.C. Sproul Chosen by God Lectures:

1. Predestination Intro: http://www.ligonier.org/media_player.php?tabID=1&id=188

2. Sovereignty of God: http://www.ligonier.org/media_player.php?tabID=1&id=189

3. What is Free Will: http://www.ligonier.org/media_player.php?tabID=1&id=190

4. Man's Radical fallenness: http://www.ligonier.org/media_player.php?tabID=1&id=191

5. Double Predestination: http://www.ligonier.org/media_player.php?tabID=1&id=192

mlqurgw · Jan 18, 2009

DarkNLovely said:
That still sounds like what I said before, that God has only chosen certain people to be elect and not others, which means that because the non-elect can not choose Christ and His Salvation because of total depravity, the others must have been chosen for hell, right? No offense, but this is why I don't believe in original sin. Funny, I was talking to the Lutherans about this very thing, and what you have just described here is pretty much what they told me about their beliefs. I don't think I'm ever gonna figure this one out.

The real issue isn't that they can't choose Christ, though that is true, but that they will not. They do not desire Him. They do not believe that they need Him. They love their sin and drink it like water. The fact is none of the elect or non-elect deserve salvation. The elect are no different from the reprobate except that God chose to save them. He is under no obligation to save any. I must ask on what you base your beliefs in, the Bible or your feelings. The doctrine of God's sovereign electing love is probably the second most prominant doctrine taught in the Scriptures.

Epiphoskei · Jan 18, 2009

DarkNLovely said:
That still sounds like what I said before, that God has only chosen certain people to be elect and not others, which means that because the non-elect can not choose Christ and His Salvation because of total depravity, the others must have been chosen for hell, right? No offense, but this is why I don't believe in original sin. Funny, I was talking to the Lutherans about this very thing, and what you have just described here is pretty much what they told me about their beliefs. I don't think I'm ever gonna figure this one out.

Lutherans and the Reformed are very close on these issues.

It is important to remember that the non-elect aren't being chosen for Hell in the same way the Elect are chosen for heaven. Reprobation, as we call it, isn't the mirror image of Election. Those who are not elect are already dead in their sins. God doesn't need to actively do anything to them in order for them to be condemned. They are already condemned. They are already dead. God passes over them, and without grace, their own sinful nature will not wish to be saved.

I was reading Edward's Freedom of the Will last night, and he pointed out something important to note in this matter. When we say God is the cause of both election and reprobation, we are redefining "cause" to mean anything upon which something is merely dependent, either in whole or in part. We need to define it thus because we need a word in the English language to express this kind of dependency, and no other words exist. God is the "cause" of Reprobation because by his not electing, men are left in their own sin. He is not the cause of Reprobation in the sense that man is condemned without his own sin and personal unwillingness to be saved from sin as the primary reasons.

desmalia · Jan 18, 2009

DarkNLovely said:
'Sup Calvinists! What's brewin'? Nothing but good stuff I do hope! So I got some quesions that I would like you to help me with please!

Do Calvints have any particualr teaching on the head covering for women?

How do you view marriage?

How do you view saints and Mary?

Do you beliee in the Perpetual Virginity?

I understand that there is the beliefe in Limited Atonement so do you guys do missions or try to convert others or anything like that?

Do you believe in dancing, listening music, television, playing cards, drinking alcohol and smoking?

How do you view that Bible and tradition in realation to one another?

Is this not a funny picture?

Hi DNL, and welcome to the Semper forum!
I remember you from a few threads in the Fundie forum.

I think everyone has already given you some great answers here, and there's not much I can add. I'm glad that you're looking into the meaning of Limited Atonement more, and I encourage you to keep studying it until you really understand it. As has been mentioned, all Christians actually do believe in limited atonement, it's just about how it's limited. Reformers believe it is limited by God's sovereignty, not man's.

And I also encourage you to listen to the Sproul links posted earlier. He does a wonderful job of explaining it.

Alkhazred · Jan 22, 2009

Hi everyone. Tell me, please, should we pray to Jesus or to Our Father? And if to Jesus, what are proofs from the Bible?

larryjf · Jan 22, 2009

Alkhazred said:
Hi everyone. Tell me, please, should we pray to Jesus or to Our Father? And if to Jesus, what are proofs from the Bible?

First, i think you are setting up a false dichotomy. It's not that we should pray to one or the other...they are both persons in the Godhead and we are to pray to God.
Also, one is never without the other. If we pray to the Father it's not that He is without the Son...the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are persons in the Godhead...therefore they are always within themselves (Jn 10:38).

Regarding praying to Jesus we find the following Scriptures...

Jesus tells us to ask Him...
Jn 14:14 - If you ask me http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=jn+14&page=#f5anything in my name, I will do it

Stephen praying to Jesus...
Acts 7:59 - And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Those who are in the Church call upon the name of Jesus (which is prayer)...
1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours

Alkhazred · Jan 22, 2009

larryjf said:
First, i think you are setting up a false dichotomy. It's not that we should pray to one or the other...they are both persons in the Godhead and we are to pray to God.
Also, one is never without the other. If we pray to the Father it's not that He is without the Son...the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are persons in the Godhead...therefore they are always within themselves (Jn 10:38).

Regarding praying to Jesus we find the following Scriptures...

Jesus tells us to ask Him...
Jn 14:14 - If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it

Stephen praying to Jesus...
Acts 7:59 - And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Those who are in the Church call upon the name of Jesus (which is prayer)...
1 Cor 1:2 - To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours

So, I can pray to Jesus Christ about my projects and talk to Him? I mean, it's easier for me to imagine God in Jesus as my personal friend and Savior, because He is very Human.

I've become Christian not so long ago, and such aspects sometimes not very evident to me.

arunma · Jan 22, 2009

Alkhazred said:
So, I can pray to Jesus Christ about my projects and talk to Him? I mean, it's easier for me to imagine God in Jesus as my personal friend and Savior, because He is very Human.

I've become Christian not so long ago, and such aspects sometimes not very evident to me.

Well, it's probably best not to imagine Jesus, since we don't know what he looked like. Indeed, many Christians in the past have committed idol worship by constructing images of Jesus and worshiping them. But he is human, and he became human so that we could know what God is like.

You can certainly pray to Jesus about whatever is happening in your life, knowing that you are praying to the God of the Universe (because Jesus is God). What is most important, though, is that you can pray to Christ Jesus about your sin, knowing that he will forgive it if you trust in him.

DarkNLovely · Jan 23, 2009

mlqurgw said:
The real issue isn't that they can't choose Christ, though that is true, but that they will not. They do not desire Him. They do not believe that they need Him. They love their sin and drink it like water. The fact is none of the elect or non-elect deserve salvation. The elect are no different from the reprobate except that God chose to save them. He is under no obligation to save any. I must ask on what you base your beliefs in, the Bible or your feelings. The doctrine of God's sovereign electing love is probably the second most prominant doctrine taught in the Scriptures.

Belife in the doctrines of the Bible allow no room for personal feelings or compromise. My faith is based on the Scriptures alone. I have read the Bible from cover to cover God knows how many times, and I honestly do not understand how one can interperate them to mean what Predatinationist believe. You just said that the only reason people are saved is because God chooses them. Well if He rejects the others, then what else is there to conclude but that He destined them for Hell? And if we are born in an inherited state of sin that we can not help and can not choose God, then on what basis are people punished and sent to Hell? If we can not choose not to sin, then we have no need for forgiveness of sins as no matter what we do, we are already elect and can not loose our salvation. Therefore, this leaves me to conclude that God first makes sinners and then condemns them. And I don't belive that. *shrugs*

cygnusx1 · Jan 23, 2009

Alkhazred said:
Hi everyone. Tell me, please, should we pray to Jesus or to Our Father? And if to Jesus, what are proofs from the Bible?

We are to Pray To The Father by the power of The Holy Spirit in Jesus name .

DarkNLovely · Jan 23, 2009

cygnusx1 said:
We are to Pray To The Father by the power of The Holy Spirit in Jesus name .

Agreed. I hadn't thought about "by the Power of The Holy Spirit" but that's right! The WHOLE Trinity is involved!

Epiphoskei · Jan 23, 2009

DarkNLovely said:
And if we are born in an inherited state of sin that we can not help and can not choose God, then on what basis are people punished and sent to Hell?

On the basis of what you just wrote, because we are born into an inherited state of sin. We are condemned, in the Bible, for our sin.

DarkNLovely said:
If we can not choose not to sin, then we have no need for forgiveness of sins as no matter what we do, we are already elect and can not loose our salvation.

That's a form of fatalism, not election. In Calvinism God saves his elect by his Irresistable Grace, which causes us to turn to him in this life. We are not saved regardless of forgiveness of sins, we are saved by forgiveness of sins which God ordained.

DarkNLovely said:
Therefore, this leaves me to conclude that God first makes sinners and then condemns them. And I don't belive that. *shrugs*

"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."

the particular baptist · Jan 23, 2009

DarkNLovely said:
Belife in the doctrines of the Bible allow no room for personal feelings or compromise. My faith is based on the Scriptures alone. I have read the Bible from cover to cover God knows how many times, and I honestly do not understand how one can interperate them to mean what Predatinationist believe. You just said that the only reason people are saved is because God chooses them. Well if He rejects the others, then what else is there to conclude but that He destined them for Hell? And if we are born in an inherited state of sin that we can not help and can not choose God, then on what basis are people punished and sent to Hell? If we can not choose not to sin, then we have no need for forgiveness of sins as no matter what we do, we are already elect and can not loose our salvation. Therefore, this leaves me to conclude that God first makes sinners and then condemns them. And I don't belive that. *shrugs*

People in their fallen state can do nothing BUT sin. Even their good deeds, good thoughts, their compassion, their generosity, all of it, is tainted by sin. Their deeds are then fallen, thoughts are fallen, compassion...fallen, ect.

BTW, God owes men nothing. He didnt have to save not a one. He didnt have to send a Savior. The fact that He plucks some out of the fire is completely His prerogative, His choice. His grace is bestowed by Him on whomever He wishes...so that no man can boast.

You are assuming we believe scripture to say that an elect believer lives like an unbeliever and yet is still saved. From what the others have written i dont see how you got that impression. The fact is those whom God saves He puts His Spirit in them and are granted repentance and faith in Him and we pursue Him all the way into eternity. There is no such thing as a worldly carnal "christian", scripture does not recognize such a thing. People are either committed disciples of Christ or they are not. There are many "churchians", but they are in the "not" category.

You are assuming that God's will is subject to men. Biblical Christianity says that all of creation is subject to the will of God, not the other way around.

ESV Romans 11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

in Christ,
flavio

DarkNLovely · Jan 23, 2009

Epiphoskei said:
"What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."

I have got questions for you!!!!!!!!!

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