I have a few questions for Progressive Adventists

[k4c]

Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, shall persecute the saints of the Most High, and shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand for a time and times and half a time.

Can you tell me who the above verse it referring to?

What law and time did he think to change?

How does this apply to New Covenant believers today?

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Of course as with any apocalyptic book there is a host of vague material which is why there has never been uninformativity in their interpretations. they don't match to history and they can't be matched to the future because the future has not occurred yet. The reasonable compromise in this is that such references match the characteristics of what happened to Jerusalem and the temple under the take over by Antiochus Epiphanes with the assumption that something similar based upon certain New Testament verses that Antiochus is an example of how the Antichrist behaves.

In the large scheme of things both Daniel and Revelation as apocalyptic books are meant to encourage in difficult times. That God does not forget and that God will win in the end and set things right. Unfortunately people like to pretend that they know more then they do and they submit that they have found a better answer even if it has as many difficulties as the other answers. They will tend to use the answer that they were handed down first as the prime answer and judge other answers against it rather then objectively examining their preferred answer with those of other answers.

The wiser choice is to leave these things open as they are poor doctrinal fuel for any beliefs other then that God will win in the end.

 

[Kolya]

Of course as with any apocalyptic book there is a host of vague material which is why there has never been uninformativity in their interpretations. they don't match to history and they can't be matched to the future because the future has not occurred yet. The reasonable compromise in this is that such references match the characteristics of what happened to Jerusalem and the temple under the take over by Antiochus Epiphanes with the assumption that something similar based upon certain New Testament verses that Antiochus is an example of how the Antichrist behaves.

In the large scheme of things both Daniel and Revelation as apocalyptic books are meant to encourage in difficult times. That God does not forget and that God will win in the end and set things right. Unfortunately people like to pretend that they know more then they do and they submit that they have found a better answer even if it has as many difficulties as the other answers. They will tend to use the answer that they were handed down first as the prime answer and judge other answers against it rather then objectively examining their preferred answer with those of other answers.

The wiser choice is to leave these things open as they are poor doctrinal fuel for any beliefs other then that God will win in the end.

You've stated that so well! I also agree with the comparison to Antiochus Epiphanes and the coming anti-christ. What laws and what times they relate to is a matter of open conjecture at this time.

I'm sure the Christian Believers that are going to live through that time will understand then what they relate to.

 

[VictorC]

What law and time did he think to change?

My response is on the "can a person love without the ten commandments" thread, since I wrote:
Hence I believe this response belongs here - there is no point in evaluating models of eschatology until the underlying theological foundations are dealt with.
build upon this foundation gold or wood/hay/stubble

Victor

 

[k4c]

My response is on the "can a person love without the ten commandments" thread, since I wrote:
Hence I believe this response belongs here - there is no point in evaluating models of eschatology until the underlying theological foundations are dealt with.
build upon this foundation gold or wood/hay/stubble

Victor

These questions are answered very clearly in the Bible, as well as, our high school history books. Until you answer these questions you will never know why I believe the Sabbath is still honored on the seventh day.

I'm going to post a stort study I did on the beast of Daniel and you will get a glimps of a powerful prophecy for the people of God to be aware of so they can take steps to not be deceived.

 

[Adventtruth]

These questions are answered very clearly in the Bible, as well as, our high school history books. Until you answer these questions you will never know why I believe the Sabbath is still honored on the seventh day.

I'm going to post a stort study I did on the beast of Daniel and you will get a glimps of a powerful prophecy for the people of God to be aware of so they can take steps to not be deceived.

Its not because you have a understanding of Dan 7:25 that you believe in the 7th day sabbath observance. Its becasue you bought and fed into the Seventh day Adventist White lie that you support a Seventh day observance.

Adventtruth.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

My response is on the "can a person love without the ten commandments" thread, since I wrote:
Hence I believe this response belongs here - there is no point in evaluating models of eschatology until the underlying theological foundations are dealt with.
build upon this foundation gold or wood/hay/stubble

Victor

Good solid soteriology must be laid prior to, and take primacy over, eschatology. A sound, stable, radical-grace-filled soteriology must first be established firmly by and upon the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and the recognition that in Him dwelt all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (thus He both declares and displays the full and entire revelation of the BEING of God), before any proper attempt at an eschatology may even be considered to be undertaken. ANY eschatology violative of this sound, stable, radical-grace-filled soteriology proves itself by and in that violation to be a house of cards built from a deck of lies. In the genuine cognizance of the telos bestowed by the Holy Spirit who seals us, soteriology and eschatology become inseparable and each of absolute necessity to the other and revelatory of the other. But any human attempt to build such a relationship outside full grasp of the telos bes doomed to failure and to plummeting into utterly deadly deception. The holier and more pious sounding the counterfeit, the deadlier its deceit and more indetectable (and thus by result, inescapable) its snare.

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Can you tell me who the above verse it referring to?

Antiochus Epiphanes.

What law and time did he think to change?

Antiochus Epiphanes destroyed the temple, thereby shattering the Jewish practices relating to "times" and "laws." He sought to Hellenize the Jews by ordering the worship of Zeus as the supreme god. Antiochus Epiphanes' desecration of the Jewish sanctuary represents the type of 'the abomination of desolation' foretold by the prophet Daniel.

How does this apply to New Covenant believers today?

Antiochus Epiphanes foreshadows the anti-Christ which is yet to come.


BFA

 

[VictorC]

These questions are answered very clearly in the Bible, as well as, our high school history books. Until you answer these questions you will never know why I believe the Sabbath is still honored on the seventh day.

You know, you never did provide an answer to my post, and I wonder if you missed the link to it.

I'm going to post a stort study I did on the beast of Daniel and you will get a glimps of a powerful prophecy for the people of God to be aware of so they can take steps to not be deceived.

I glanced through your study, and found that it is a verbatim copy found elsewhere. I accused you of plagiarism, and you have not responded to declare your identity to be the same as "scubadiver" or if you stole his work.

Your essay is mired in problems. I'm quite used to essays that are written in a manner to reach a predetermined conclusion, and that is the manner you wrote in. In writing the steps to get to the conclusion you had already decided on, I found assumptions and just abject mistakes that would be tedious to respond to.

Get to the foundation instead of mangling prophecy based on a beast you haven't even identified correctly. Find me how a sabbath ordinance could be binding, when it can only be found from a covenant that has been abolished.

Victor

 

[k4c]

The reason why it's word for word as scubadiver is because I am scubadiver.

Now to the important things. Did you read the study?

Do you beleive it? If not why? Give me reasons using the Bible.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Antiochus Epiphanes.

Antiochus Epiphanes destroyed the temple, thereby shattering the Jewish practices relating to "times" and "laws." He sought to Hellenize the Jews by ordering the worship of Zeus as the supreme god. Antiochus Epiphanes' desecration of the Jewish sanctuary represents the type of 'the abomination of desolation' foretold by the prophet Daniel.

Bes this not the Preterist View, that A.E. constitutes the "little horn" in Daniel?

Antiochus Epiphanes foreshadows the anti-Christ which is yet to come.

OK so you bes not fully a Preterist then, gotcha.
Moriah bes still exploring whether the marriage of soteriology and eschatology found in the telos points toward a more preterist comprehension of the latter or not. If it does, Moriah certainly took quite a different route to get there! :o

 

[VictorC]

The reason why it's word for word as scubadiver is because I am scubadiver.

Okay - I'm sorry I accused you of plagiarism. It would have been helpful if you had mentioned it was elsewhere, or that you don't use (nearly) the same name on various forums.

Now to the important things. Did you read the study?

Yes, I have - as I mentioned.

Do you beleive it?

No, I don't - as I mentioned.

Give me reasons using the Bible.

Sure. As I mentioned before, it is unBiblical.
You haven't established a sabbath ordinance that can be "changed", you haven't identified the fourth beast of Daniel 7, and you have attributed a pope's actions in the past to an organization that only came into existence since 1945.
Mostly, you have no foundation. Go and fetch that sabbath ordinance outside of the abolished Mosaic covenant. Something that doesn't exist can't be changed.
I have probably around a hundred posts making that point, and you have not provided an answer to this yet.
It is because your position has abandoned the Bible, and your study has as well. It is typical SDA material from Ellen White apologists, and it isn't the first time by any means I have seen this kind of "study".

I noticed that you continued to ignore where I had actually responded to your post:
"You know, you never did provide an answer to my post, and I wonder if you missed the --> link <-- to it."

Victor

 

[hraedisc]

Jesus rejected the "Antiochus Epiphanes" interpretation in favor of a FUTURE TO HIS DAY application.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...se=14&end_verse=16&version=31&context=context

 

[mva1985]

Is the Roman Empire.

 

[k4c]

Is the Roman Empire.

And the woman who rides pagan Rome, also known as the beast, is the Catholic Church.

 

[VictorC]

Is the Roman Empire.

And here I thought the fourth beast "shall arise" at a time after the lion beast, and Rome rose long before the lion came into existence.

 

[mva1985]

And here I thought the fourth beast "shall arise" at a time after the lion beast, and Rome rose long before the lion came into existence.

There is a specific order in Daniel 2 & 7. The fourth beast comes after the lion in Daniel 7.

 

[VictorC]

There is a specific order in Daniel 2 & 7. The fourth beast comes after the lion in Daniel 7.

Yes, of course.
You're simply using a model I don't.

That means the fourth beast of Daniel 7 can't be Rome, since Rome preceeds the British Empire.
k4c is already aware that Daniel 7:17 places these kingdoms in the future tense from the time the vision occured, which was in the riegn of the final king of Babylon. That disqualifies Babylon from being the lion.

Daniel 2 outlines a separate lineage, where the fourth element portrayed there breaks up into feet made from unmixable iron and clay. Rome disintegrated into the European nation-states, and it is this condition the world is in when the Rock from heaven strikes the feet. Rome is finished and isn't going to be around to meet the Son of man and have its dominion taken away.

Also, Daniel 7:7 says that the previous beasts stand before the fourth, in the likely sense that they stand in front of the fourth beast (as you would stand before another person; the Aramaic qodam conveys the same meaning we attribute to 'before' in English). This is reenforced in Daniel 7:12, where all the beasts exist together in the plural.

England still stands before the United Nations.
Babylon does not stand before Rome, and even Rome doesn't stand anymore, having broken into Italy and the other nations of Europe.

It was assumed that Daniel 7 repeated the same kingdoms Daniel 2 did during the 19th Century, but later examination of details in light of events that were unforeseen 160 years ago doesn't make that old model very well accepted anymore.

Victor