I HATE heathens. Plz advise..

Alternate Carpark · Apr 12, 2004

You are correct Trench777, your OP had touched a strong wound in At_avus, do not take the attack personally.
I like epiphany's post, an am always reminded by God, of what I was like before He shed His light on my dark world, when I now interact with the *ahem* 'heathens'.

We are ALL God's children. Some are lost and some are found.
The ones who are found and living in the light should be there to help the ones who are lost to find their way to the light.

The ones who are in the light aren't perfect though, we have many wounds from when we were in darkness.
As we allow God to tend to our wounds and as we develop our personal relationship with God, we become more like Christ.

It is only when we become like Christ will we be able to love the lost as Christ loved them.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Apr 12, 2004

At_avus said:
"glorify evil"?? Huh? You do realize that most non-believers don't believe in the Lord, so to them it's not any more "Evil" than making fun of santa claus.

It sounds to me like you've been reading too many Answers in Genesis speeches. (I have no idea if you have or not, but when I read their stuff, many of their writers share the same attitude toward atheists that you do).

They portray non-believers and evolutionists as "evil" and out to get/convert your kids, etc. Sad.

They and other YEC groups love to demonize atheists and evolutionists in general. They deliberately promote the kind of feelings you have, just so that their readers don't ever listen to the arguements of "the enemy".

You should avoid poeple like that.

You should also give some serious thought as to whether you felt that way about people who were philosophically different than you BEFORE you became a christian. If you were not like that before, then one really has to wonder what it is that the spirit of the lord is doing to you on the inside.

With respect, we've had enough of people with that kind of attitude towards non-christians during the Dark Ages.

I know of one person at least who wrote to me what it was like for her to go to school where most of the poeple felt as you did.

Once she had said that she was an atheist, she was verbally and physically attacked almost on a daily basis. (shoved into lockers, punched, hit, ganged up on,etc) all because those poeple felt the way you do. It's bad enough that kids have that attitude, but to see and adult with it?

The school councilor was of no use. She just told her that the other kids were trying to help her, or some such damned thing.

Thanks to the treatment she got from people like that, do you want to guess what her feelings are towards christians?
Well, at least, unlike those kids and that useless "guidance counselor" at that school, you recognize a problem.

we have a friend looking for help here...and there is very much a sense in which people who hate God know He is real, and they know what they're doing. You can't venomously hate that which doesn't exist.

Mr.Cheese · Apr 12, 2004

Don't hate heathens.
Hate the enemy.

At_avus · Apr 12, 2004

Trench777 said:
Well, I have literally no idea what "Answers in Genesis" are (is?).

I have no clue what a "YEC" is, either.

I never beat up/locked in a locker/ganged up on or otherwise abused an atheist, or anyone spitting in the face of my Lord. Not for lack of desire, I should add, for honesty sake.

"You should also give some serious thought as to whether you felt that way about people who were philosophically different than you BEFORE you became a christian. If you were not like that before, then one really has to wonder what it is that the spirit of the lord is doing to you on the inside."

Well, I hated EVERYONE, before I was saved. Philosophy really wasn't an issue. If you were not a friend, you were an enemy. The Holy Spirit has done nothing but good things in me (when I give him liberty to do so)

You appear to be hostile towards me, 'cause someone who you think is like me hazed the girl who wrote you (or because of these Answer in Genesis or YEC people, or something). Let me just say...if I PLANNED on acting on my feelings, I would have never come here looking for advice on how to overcome these feelings of hatred I struggle with towards people who spit in the face of my Lord. I came looking for advice because I KNOW the feelings I'm fighting with are wrong. God led me to why they are wrong, through His Word.

Uh, no, I'm not hostile towards you, I'm just worried for you.

"someone who you think is like me hazed the girl who wrote you"~~ah, I daresay given that you've freely admitted to "hating heathens", I daresay that it's more than me "thinking" that they're like you.

The ONLY difference between them and you, is you've at least realized that there is something wrong and are trying to get help. The hatred in the heart is still the same. The basis for my saying that you are "like" those others is that Jesus himself considers it to be as bad as murder if you so much as "hate" someone.

Sure, you don't plan on acting out on those impulses, and, to your credit, which I've mentioned before, you DID come here for help on that.

I do not discount the power of the prayers that have been prayed on my behalf, by my brothers and sisters here, either. It is very well possible that had I not come here looking for advice and received the prayers of the people here, I might not have been led to the solution to my problem.

T777

Besides, if I was "hostile" towards you, you'd be able to tell!

Oh yeah, YEC~~>Young Earth Creationist, AIG~~>Answers in Genesis.

To see what I meant by what I said about them, just check out what they say, especially the writings by Johnathan Sarfati. He obviously has an axe to gring against non-believers too. That, and those people there are contantly demonizing them. You're better than those poeple in this respect: You're trying to get help. When I've seen people confront Sarfati on another board, it does NO good at all!

To your credit, you did not even need anyone to do that to you.

Alternate Carpark · Apr 12, 2004

You do realise At_avus that this is the Advice and Counselling section, and both your posts show neither for Trench777.
All you've done is vent about people who you dislike and pointed out that Trench777 'must' be just like them.

We don't have a problem with you expressing your view, but not in this section.
This section is for people to ask for help and it is the desire of others to help people deal with and overcome thier problems, not to condemn or judge them.

Trench777 · Apr 13, 2004

At_avus said:
Uh, no, I'm not hostile towards you, I'm just worried for you.

"someone who you think is like me hazed the girl who wrote you"~~ah, I daresay given that you've freely admitted to "hating heathens", I daresay that it's more than me "thinking" that they're like you.

I also hate cockroaches. That doesn't make me an exterminator. You want to transpose all thier traits onto me because we share one trait you find particularly unforgivable or distasteful, theres nothing I can do about that. I'm not going to defend a character flaw (my hatred).

At_avus said:
The ONLY difference between them and you, is you've at least realized that there is something wrong and are trying to get help. The hatred in the heart is still the same. The basis for my saying that you are "like" those others is that Jesus himself considers it to be as bad as murder if you so much as "hate" someone.

If thats the ONLY difference, in your mind, then so be it. I'm not here to change your mind about me. I wasn't here to lay myself at your feet for judgement, but you've chosen to do that. The Word has a few things to say about that, as well.

At_avus said:
Oh yeah, YEC~~>Young Earth Creationist, AIG~~>Answers in Genesis.

I don't know what a Young Earth Creationist is, but if they love Jesus Christ and God, thier doctrine means little to nothing to me. If I started tossing people out of my midst for differences in interpretation of The Word, I think I'd probably wind up in a VERY small church (like maybe one person, in my basement). As it stands, I love Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah's witnesses, 7th Day Adventists, Messianic Jews, Baptists, Presbyterians & anyone else who loves Christ in thier hearts. I'm WORKING on loving the ones who HATE christ in thier hearts and find it funny to spit on His Name.

At_avus said:
To see what I meant by what I said about them, just check out what they say, especially the writings by Johnathan Sarfati. He obviously has an axe to gring against non-believers too. That, and those people there are contantly demonizing them. You're better than those poeple in this respect: You're trying to get help. When I've seen people confront Sarfati on another board, it does NO good at all!

I submit unto you that I am no better than them at all (and I don't even know him/them). By your own valid scriptural account, I am a murderer in my heart. I can certainly relate to them having an "axe to grind" with people who think its funny to spit in the face of my Lord, who lifted me out of the pit of my own filth and set me among the princes of His people. How can I condemn them for falling to the same trap I did, in hating heathens? The deciever has...ohh...5000 years of experience tripping up people like me? If nothing else, they and I have at least ONE thing more in common than heathens, and that is a love of Jesus Christ. Across the board (heathens & believers) we all have one thing in common...none deserve the grace & mercy we have been given by God.

At_avus said:
To your credit, you did not even need anyone to do that to you.

I am not a proud person, so it was not too much of a problem to come ask those more loving than myself how they manage to love someone who finds it the height of humor to spit in the face of my Lord.

I am still struggling with this issue, but I am being as obedient as I can be to the leading of God. Needless to say, the enemy shoves the hatred the heathen have for my Lord in my face as graphicly and obscenely as possible every day. Couple that with my brethren also condemning me for not being the loving, forgiving person I'm working on becoming (but am not yet) and it can make for some long days (not just you At_Avus, I get degraded frequently from brethren who seem to feel my character flaws are the unforgivable ones, while the plank gathers dust in thier eye).

Upon reading your 2 posts, I think you need my prayer. I hope I'm not overstepping my bounds by saying it seems you have a disregard for some of your brothers and sisters due to thier doctrinal beliefs. John 15:17 "This I command you, that you love one another" refering to we believers (you refered to scripture for me, the least I can do is return the favor). I will be praying for the softening of your heart towards those who do not follow the same doctrine as you, that you might obey Christs command of "love one another". If I'm mistaken, I ask your forgiveness.

In Christ,

T777

Christi · Apr 17, 2004

What has helped me the most..... is to remind myself that God is in control of all things, and He has placed people in my life for a reason, and me in their life for a reason. They are people God loves and desperately wants as His own. Enough to die. Pray for their good, pray for blessing in their life, pray that God will let you serve Him in their life. It's hard to hate people you are praying for. It's hard to hate people that you have a vested interest in, because you are part of God's plan concerning them. Most people are easier to love when you know them, also.

Suzannah · Apr 17, 2004

Dear Trench,

One of the most beautiful teachings of Orthodoxy may help you in this. It is the view of the Beatitudes...in Orthodoxy, the beatitudes are actually our ladder to holiness.
Matthew 5:

1 (1) When Jesus saw the crowds, He went up on (2) the mountain; and after He sat down, His disciples came to Him.
2 (3) He opened His mouth and began to teach them, saying,
3 "(4) Blessed are the poor in spirit, for (5) theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

We must have a broken and contrite heart of repentence. Humility is the first step to holiness.

4 "Blessed are (6) those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

We must also mourn for the world and its fallen nature.

5 "Blessed are (7) the [1] gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.

We must strive to be humble, kind and understanding of others

6 "Blessed are (8) those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

We must cultivate a desire for holiness and strive for it in all things.
.
7 "Blessed are (9) the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

We must remember that our Lord is merciful, and we are also called to be merciful.

8 "Blessed are (10) the pure in heart, for (11) they shall see God.

To be pure in heart means to have no wish to offend, to be non-offensive, but also to become so pure that we are no longer offended. The sin and fallen nature of man passes by ...

9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for (12) they shall be called sons of God.

The soul that has truly been touched by God's grace will seek peace in all things.

10 "Blessed are those who have been (13) persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for (14) theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 "Blessed are you when people (15) insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

To be martyred for Christ is to be crucified with Him and how great is our reward!!!
12 "Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for (16) in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Rejoice!!! Christians are hopeful, optimistic and happy!!!!

Krystina661 · Apr 17, 2004

Mr.Cheese said:
Don't hate heathens.
Hate the enemy.

You couldn't of said it better.

Alternate Carpark · Apr 17, 2004

Mr Cheese said:
Don't hate heathens..Hate the enemy

Krystina661 said:
You couldn't of said it better

Life is not a simple case of "Hey just don't do it ! "
If it were then there would be no need for most of Romans to be written.

T777 is already aware that his attitude and thoughts are wrong.
That is why he posted in here, to seek out information to help him overcome it.

A more detailed explanation of 'Don't hate heathens..hate the enemy' would be extemely beneficial to T777 and to everyone else reading the thread.

I beleive T777 seeks to understand the reasons as to why his behaviour is like it is.
What motivates him to act the way he does, which is exactly how God deals with our problems.

Our actions and words all come from what's in our hearts and minds.
As we allow God into these particular areas of our souls, He will heal that particular part and our actions and words will change.

Changing your external behaviour without changing your internal motives and thoughts and concepts is being bound to the law and not living in glorious freedom.

God wants to heal the dysfunction deep within the heart. When that is achieved, we then do not struggle to follow the law but we willfully and lovingly fullfil the law.

This is the freedom in Christ that God has for us.
When God restores a soul, He doesn't work on external behaviour, that is our duty and our responsibility.

God, when we allow Him access to all areas of our soul, delves deep within and repairs the damage at its absolute source.
And He doesn't keep us in the dark concerning it, He shows us how the damage came about and shows us how to stop from being damaged in that way again.

Then it's a slow process for that healing to show up in our actions.
If God has healed us internally and we are doing our part to protect ourselves from more damage,
that particular dysfunction will never occur again.

This is God's slow but perfect work of restoring our souls.
Does it take a long time ? YES.
Is it a painful process ? YES.
Is it worth it ? YES.
What are the benefits ?

John 10:10 A thief is only there to steal and kill and destroy. I came so they can have real and eternal life, more and better life than they ever dreamed of.

Ephes. 1:7 Because of the sacrifice of the Messiah, his blood poured out on the altar of the Cross, we're a free peoplefree of penalties and punishments chalked up by all our misdeeds. And not just barely free, either. Abundantly free!

Ephes. 3:20 God can do anything, you knowfar more than you could ever imagine or guess or request in your wildest dreams! He does it not by pushing us around but by working within us, his Spirit deeply and gently within us.

Trench777 · Apr 17, 2004

Thank you, Suzannah & AC!

AC, you are right; the "Don't hate heathens, hate the enemy" does me pretty much no good at all. In the OP, you can see the point of my whole post was to try to find out HOW the rest of you manage to walk in love with people who are spitting in the face of our Holy G-D.

While I do appreciate the intent to help, its more or less like me telling my 7 month old son "Walk & talk", then leaving him alone. I'm willing to bet if I come back in 7 more months he'll be neither walking, nor talking. Why not? I told him what to do...

The answers for my dilema were found in The Word (as always). For me, it was Gideon's uncle telling the Baal worshipers "What? Baal can't defend himself? If he's a god, let him defend himself. If he's mad about Gideon tearing down his altar, let him avenge himself."

Thank you all, for the kind words of guidance and advice.

May G-D richly bless you!

T777

UberLutheran · Apr 17, 2004

You know that phrase from "The Lord's Prayer":

...and forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us

Meditate on that for awhile. Think about the things you would like to be forgiven for -- ESPECIALLY those deep, dark secrets we all have, the things we swear we're going to carry to our grave without telling someone, the things we've done which we'd just rather not tell ANYONE.

We want God to forgive us those sins. Given that, it makes it MUCH easier to forgive other people their sins against us.

I know exactly where you're coming from, because there are a certain group of people affiliated with a certain political party whose beliefs and attitudes drive me absolutely up the wall.

I have to remind myself that in God's eyes, those people and I are absolutely the same; and that Christ died on the cross for them, too.

cherokeehippie · Apr 18, 2004

Hey! I think satan would love to cause us to get so mad at 'pagans' so to make us into Pharisees! which I believe is the biggest danger for us to fall into as Believers. I really do believe that the church in America has gotten it's eyes off of Jesus and have gotten so politics motivated which is bad. I think of the scripture "do good to those who despise you" and "for God cause the sun to shine upon the good and the bad". I choose to do good to those who hate Him. They hate Him because they have a distorted view of Him. They might have even had a bad church experience, or been in a spiritual abusive church--I know I was in an abusive church a few years ago. There is this one pagan girl I know of. A week or 2 ago, She had overheard a conversation I was having with a christian friend of mine on the topic of the wheat and the tares in the Kingdom. The pagan girl butted in and said "then why are pagans cast out?" I could feel the hostility in her. I answered her softly and said that Jesus said that "He or she who comes to Him, He will in no wise cast out" Well, yesterday, I was set up at folkfest(a festival here in the town I live in). I was selling my Pine needle baskets, hemp bracelets and crystals. (Crystals belong to the LORD, not satan. I see nothing wrong with having crystals--dispite some using it in occult, etc. And by the way, I'm in Arkansas--where a lot of crystals come from.). Anyway, I recognized the pagan girl. I said hi to her and then gave her a gift--a little crystal. I decided to plant a seed of the Lord's love for her by giving her a gift. It creeps me out, her hard heart, but I decide to do good to her, anyway.

Trench777 · Apr 18, 2004

UberLutheran said:
You know that phrase from "The Lord's Prayer":

...and forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us

Meditate on that for awhile. Think about the things you would like to be forgiven for -- ESPECIALLY those deep, dark secrets we all have, the things we swear we're going to carry to our grave without telling someone, the things we've done which we'd just rather not tell ANYONE.

We want God to forgive us those sins. Given that, it makes it MUCH easier to forgive other people their sins against us.

Well, the thing is...I have no problem forgiving people when they trespass against me...its when they spit in the face of my L-rd that my ire gets piqued. I find that much harder to forgive.

But, I'm working through it with G-D and getting more revelation from Him daily.

At any rate, thank you for your advice.

T777

Trench777 · Apr 18, 2004

Cherokeehippie: The soft heart and kindness you showed to the "pagan" girl, is exactly what I earnestly seek in myself. Some days it's easier than others, heh.

T777

dawnmo · Apr 18, 2004

Well, maybe I can give you some advice, as a former "heathen."

First off, a lot of "heathens" are not deliberately mocking you or your faith or God, or whatever. Many of those "heathens" have been hurt by judgmental Christians. Seriously. I've talked to a lot of pagans in my day (hey, I was even one), and a lot of them have been turned off Christianity by judgmental Christians. That's what happened to me. I was so sick of being ridiculed and judged for things that I either cannot (such as my race, for example), that I just got mad and left. So, by being angry with the "heathens," you aren't doing you or them any good at all.

Even with those who are deliberately spitting at the face of God...you know, the same thing happened to Jesus, and yet what did He say? Forgive them, for they know not what they do. Maybe when you feel the anger starting to rise inside of you, you can just think of Jesus' example in asking forgiveness for them, instead of getting so angry at them. Or maybe a prayer of, "Jesus, let me see these people as You see them," will help you curb your anger.

I noticed that you said something that caught my interest:

Trench777 said:
I've tried telling myself "Well, there was a time when you didn't know Jesus Christ"..."You were just as bad"..."You blasphemed God, too"....etc. ...I DESPISE who I used to be, with a perfect hatred.

Are you sure that it's the "heathens" you are mad at, or are you really mad at who you used to be? That may seem like a silly question on the surface, but think about it honestly, and you may be surprised what your answer is.

I once read a story when Corrie ten Boom, who had been in a concentration camp during WW2, had just given a talk about forgiveness when one of her former Nazi guards came up to her talking about how great God's forgiveness was. She was just so sick inside - this man here was responsible for such great abuses, and yet here he was, forgiven by God. And he wanted to shake her hand! Her flesh did not want to shake this man's hand, she wanted to cry out to him and tell him that she knew who he was and what he had done. Instead, though, she prayed that God would give her the strength needed to shake his hand. She lifted her hand out, and as soon as she shook his hand, she felt God's peace and strength flooding through her.

Now, to apply that to your situation...the next time you feel that anger rising inside of you, say "God, please bring that person to You," or "God, let me show Your love to that person," or "God, give me the strength needed to get through this situation." If you are in a position to bless the person like cherokeehippie did, do so, even if your flesh wants to rebel at the mere thought of doing so. You may be surprised at the results.

Hopefully this is of some help to you.

BigToe · Apr 27, 2004

Well first of all, because some people act in a way that drives you nuts does not mean that the whole of nonbelievers do so. There are many nonChristians out there who are respectful, loyal, admirable people.

However, hatred is not becoming on anyone, let alone a Christian. I know it is a hard struggle to still love those who act in a manner that you don't approve. But those actions are not limited to only those who don't believe. Many times I feel more disgust towards self proclaimed Christians who participate in rather disgusting behavior.

My advice? Take it with a grain of salt. Try whatever you can to not desire to act out of violence, because in all honesty it does not help the situation, perhaps only makes it worse in the end. Instead of fantasies of bashing them in with a bat, pray for them. Think kind thoughts on their behalf. Pray that God helps you with your attitude in the manner. God calls on us to love each other- friend and enemy. To treat others in a hateful manner does nothing to further his message of love.

Furthermore, disrespecting a group by saying you hate all heathens/pagans/atheists/etc is quite rude and many may take offense. And I am sure deep down you are troubled with this hatred because you too take offense that you feel this way. I will be praying for you and a change of heart. Good luck.

Rage4Christ · Apr 28, 2004

trench777

You need to ask yourself-- what emotional/spiritual payoff do you get when you judge the athiest?

You are avoiding your own interpersonal work and path to Christ, by taking the role of Judge. You can't "judge other people" your way to heaven.

For some reason you have lost the ability to distinguish yourself from God. You take every insult to God personally. That is not your job. You're only responsible for yourself.

Think about it. God is not angry (if he was he would have never let it happened in the first place.) Your anger is an insult to God. You're saying "God's not sticking up for himself-- so I need to get angry for him." It simply doesn't work that way.

Returning to the blurred lines of self identity. I can understand that one can rely on God too much, to such an extent that all slights and insults are taken "personally." This should be a red flag for you. You're not pulling your own weight. You need to individuate yourself. Find what choices and feelings you have, and don't identify with the names and images of God.

, but this isn't about "me"....I love not my life even unto death...but this is the name of my GOD, who I love more than anything, that they trample under thier ungodly feet like mud in thier path.

Here, you seem to feel that sacrificing yourself -- that you are not important-- is somehow noble and justifies sticking up for another.

Just as Christ commanded us to give unconditional love, you need to love yourself unconditionally.

You say: "go ahead and slap me because I don't love myself."

This isn't what Christ commands. You must love yourself, respect yourself, and respect others. Its about Healthy boundaries-- not anger, or hateful judgements.

I HATE heathens. Plz advise..

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