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I don't understand the point of creationism

loveofourlord

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I see you have no clue of science but that's fine. The fact that you write "God" with a small g explains a lot. May He have mercy on you!

says the creationist, i obviously understand science better then you if I accept evolution. I've been studying for over 20 years, and seen the lies, misrepresentations about science and evolution why I reject it. If you can't actually show why evolution is wrong without lying why should anyone trust you?
 
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Astrid

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Hard to find to find a scientist who agrees with
that, but good you did your diligence.

Could you explain how lots of micro
fails to add up to macro?
A specific point at which it can go no further?
 
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SkyWriting

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It's a conservative cult group. Since there aren't very many of those they are hard to classify.
 
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Astrid

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I don't think it is actually possible for a
creationist to "disprove " evolution without
resort to something false.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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Hard to find to find a scientist who agrees with
that, but good you did your diligence.

Could you explain how lots of micro
fails to add up to macro?
A specific point at which it can go no further?

The claim is that a single celled bacteria-like organism could have evolved through random mutation into a human being.

In terms of validating this claim scientifically- we have got as far as - more bacteria - that leaves a lot up to speculation.

What we DO observe is that even with forced selective pressure, there are limits to change beyond which the organism becomes dysfunctional e.g. dogs or cattle breeding
 
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Speedwell

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What we DO observe is that even with forced selective pressure, there are limits to change beyond which the organism becomes dysfunctional e.g. dogs or cattle breeding
Which is, if anything, a confirmation of the theory. It certainly isn't an argument against evolution. Natural selection reduces the information content of the gene pool; random mutation increases it. the practical effect is on the standard deviation of the random distribution of variation. When the information content of the gene pool decreases, the standard deviation decreases as well and the range of variants produced with each generation of offspring is smaller, slowing or stopping evolution. The same thing happens with selective breeding, only it happens more rapidly. Forced selection depletes the information content of the gene pool faster than it can be replenished by natural means and the organism becomes dysfunctional.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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That's the irony in this title

'On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection'

As you point out, natural selection originates nothing, it only destroys/reduces options, it is a destructive/ filtering process- you begin with a larger number of options and are left with fewer- the Darwinian tree of life is turned upside down by natural selection.

That leaves only 'random variation/mutation' aka pure chance, to fight upstream against this force without direction... that is problematic for the theory
 
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Speedwell

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Which is it? Randomly distributed variation or "pure chance?" You have to make up your mind exactly what you are arguing against.
 
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Astrid

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Hmm. Is the idea that if you cant do it in a short time
in a lab, its not possible out there in millions of yesrs?

Are you arguing against multicellular organism being able to
evolve to multicellular?

It is well known that many living organism,
plant, bacteria and animal can live as single cells, or, as
coopersting colonies .

That is a start on multicellular. The next step, the next and next can
also seen in living organisms. Do I need to describe?

If you can identify one specific point at which evolution
can go so far but no further, that would be of great interest.
Especially. If you could identify the mechanism that stops
further mutation, "so far but no further".

I don't believe it has been demonstrated that selective breeding
can only end in a "dysfunctional" organism.
Are you stating it as a fact?
 
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Guy Threepwood

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Hmm. Is the idea that if you cant do it in a short time
in a lab, its not possible out there in millions of yesrs?

But it does not require millions of years for the experiment to fail, it fails within a few generations.
Farmers knew this when Darwin published 'Origin..' they had already been testing the theory for thousands of years

I don't think it's a coincidence that it took someone unusually removed from practical knowledge of breeding to popularize the theory.


It is known that DNA is structured hierarchically, e.g. the gene regulatory system controls which genes are applied to certain parts of the body plan.

i.e.- it's not that animals cannot necessarily go through great morphological change, but it is not achieved gradually through common small variation as Darwin proposed- (hence punctuated equilibrium) this is also supported by the staccato nature of the fossil record. Where new body plans appear abruptly in the record and remain in stasis often for hundreds of millions of years with no significant change thereafter
 
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Guy Threepwood

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Which is it? Randomly distributed variation or "pure chance?" You have to make up your mind exactly what you are arguing against.

same

if I choose my stock picks by random distribution, I am leaving it to pure chance
 
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Astrid

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You are just confirming what I said, you can't expect fast results.
Cook a steak in a microwave.

Punctuated equilibrium...a source of much misunderstanding,
That there are gaps in the fossil record is obvious, though
they are getting smaller and fewer- keeping in mind that
paleontology is not at all well funded.
There are also gaps in the record of ww2, and more in
that of the Roman Empire.
The conclusion could be that they just leaped over those
gaps, or, that the record is so far missing

Could you tell me about sudden appearances in the
transition from fish to amphibian?
Changes that could not have
evolved but must have appeared some other way?
 
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Speedwell

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No, they are very far from being the same. That's why I asked the question.

if I choose my stock picks by random distribution, I am leaving it to pure chance
How do you do that? What are you using for a bell curve?
 
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Guy Threepwood

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You are just confirming what I said, you can't expect fast results.
Cook a steak in a microwave.

it is a fast result though, dysfunction is achieved over a short period of time/ # of generations.
Punctuated equilibrium...a source of much misunderstanding,
That there are gaps in the fossil record is obvious, though
they are getting smaller and fewer- keeping in mind that
paleontology is not at all well funded.

Okay, but 'the dog ate my homework' does not earn an A+!

The gaps are getting smaller as in sharper, shorter, more pronounced,
In Darwin's day the Cambrian explosion was predicted to be an artifact of an incomplete record, to be filled in/ smoothed out later with more finds. Whereas it has only become ever more explosive with more finds.

Could you tell me about sudden appearances in the
transition from fish to amphibian?
Changes that could not have
evolved but must have appeared some other way?

Evolved perhaps if defined as changed, but how the change occurs is less clear.
 
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Astrid

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Again you confirm that its not something
that can be rushed.
Your "dog ate homework" is wholly inappropriate
in content and style. I will refrain from insults,
please go forth and do likewise.

I am unaware of gaps getting sharper and
more pronounced. Explosive?? Examples?

What body plans " suddenly appear" then
don't change ?

Two questions, please give examples.
 
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pitabread

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Whereas it has only become ever more explosive with more finds.

Eh, not really: Integrated records of environmental change and evolution challenge the Cambrian Explosion | Nature Ecology & Evolution

Holistic integration of fossil and geochemical records leads us to challenge the notion that the Ediacaran and Cambrian worlds were markedly distinct, and places biotic and environmental change within a longer-term narrative. We propose that the evolution of metazoans may have been facilitated by a series of dynamic and global changes in redox conditions and nutrient supply, which, potentially together with biotic feedbacks, enabled turnover events that sustained multiple phases of radiation. We argue that early metazoan diversification should be recast as a series of successive, transitional radiations that extended from the late Ediacaran and continued through the early Palaeozoic. We conclude that while the Cambrian Explosion represents a radiation of crown-group bilaterians, it was simply one phase amongst several metazoan radiations, some older and some younger.
 
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Guy Threepwood

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Again you confirm that its not something
that can be rushed.
Your "dog ate homework" is wholly inappropriate
in content and style. I will refrain from insults,
please go forth and do likewise.

definitely no insult intended! 'dog ate my homework' is not personal, just a reduction for:
even if one has a valid excuse for the lack of evidence- that does not stand in lieu of the evidence itself.

I am unaware of gaps getting sharper and
more pronounced. Explosive?? Examples?

that is why punctuated equilibrium splintered off from the gradualists- it became ever clearer that the gaps such as the Cambrian Explosion (and others) were not mere artifacts of an incomplete record, but actual true reflections of natural history

(we have even fewer examples of evolutionary transitions than we did in Darwin's time)

similarly as a skeptic of Darwinism I take the scientific evidence at face value:
biological forms suddenly appear and generally remain without much change
macro evolution v natural variation cannot be replicated, observed or even modelled-
variation appears to be a design feature, not a design mechanism
I have no need to accuse this direct evidence of being misleading

What body plans " suddenly appear" then
don't change ?
Two questions, please give examples.

horseshoe crab
when a photocopy remains identical after 100 million copies- you know its being sourced from a 'master' copy, not successive generations of copies with accumulated random errors
 
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