I Don't Sin!

LST 1154 · Oct 26, 2009

MrPolo said:
Second, it is interesting that you believe no living person then completely conquers the tendency to sin. Do you believe such a soul will be permitted to enter heaven with this blemish, or will that defect be purged away when the soul passes from earth to heaven?

I'm guessing you believe in the teaching of purgatory, which states that we must have our sins "purged" before we can enter heaven, and I agree 100% Our sins MUST be purged! But I don't buy into the false teaching of purgatory. Why" Because our sins have already been purged. Hebrews 1:3, "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding allthings by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high." If Christ Jesus Himself has purged our sins, He doesn't need our "help" in purging them nor does he need or use the "help" of some supposed priest to pray us out of it for $$$.

LST

MrPolo · Oct 26, 2009

LST 1154 said:
I'm guessing you believe in the teaching of purgatory, which states that we must have our sins "purged" before we can enter heaven, and I agree 100% Our sins MUST be purged! But I don't buy into the false teaching of purgatory. Why" Because our sins have already been purged. Hebrews 1:3, "Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding allthings by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins

Interpreting one's tendency to sin as purged in the past tense would mean no Christian ever sins, which is not the case Scripturally or practically. This passage means that only by Christ's work on the Cross are sins ever purged.

For example, one of the temporal punishments, as we call it, of sin is the addiction to the sin. As Jesus describes it, one who sins becomes "slave to sin" (Jn 8:34). God will forgive the sin of the penitent, but the person is hurt, damaged, temporally punished, by the sin such that he has the tendency to sin again. This is an obstacle to his complete sanctification, and thus if the forgiven soul dies with this attachment remaining, he will have it purged until he is perfectly sanctified, fit for heaven---for not a single blemish can enter heaven. This final purification (or purging) is done by the work of the Cross.

Interestingly, even vehement anti-Catholics like John MacArthur believe this will take place, although he would just not call it "purgatory."

LST 1154 · Oct 27, 2009

MrPolo said:
Interpreting one's tendency to sin as purged in the past tense would mean no Christian ever sins, which is not the case Scripturally or practically. This passage means that only by Christ's work on the Cross are sins ever purged.

This final purification (or purging) is done by the work of the Cross.

My understanding on your above comments. Paragraph one; our tendency to sin is a sin in and of itself and since we are still capable of sin this needs to be purged but since our sin is in the present tense and Christ's death on the cross is past tense our sins still need purging. So does this mean Christ's work on the cross was effective but unfortunately it was not 100% effective.

Paragraph two; final purification "is" [present tense] done by the work of the cross.

I believe Christ's work on the cross is efficacious for every sin of every one of God's adopted children. His perfect sacrifice purged all sin, at one time. Every sin that they have ever committed in the past and every sin they will ever will commit in the future was and is purged. Psalm 103:12, "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

LST

Click to expand...

MrPolo · Oct 27, 2009

LST 1154 said:
So does this mean Christ's work on the cross was effective but unfortunately it was not 100% effective.

You tell me. Have you ever sinned since you became a believer? Has any Christian ever sinned in Scripture after becoming a believer? Was Christ's work not effective enough to eliminate those blemishes?

LST 1154 · Oct 27, 2009

MrPolo said:
You tell me. Have you ever sinned since you became a believer? Has any Christian ever sinned in Scripture after becoming a believer? Was Christ's work not effective enough to eliminate those blemishes?

Have I sinned since receiving Christ? Yes. Did His work on the cross 2000 years ago eliminate all those sins? Yes, if not, it didn't eliminate any sin of anyone. [Christ's] act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience [Adam's] the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience [Christ's] the many will be made righteous. " Romans 5:18-19. Will God condemn me and will He hold me accountable for any of those sins? No. "There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1. Therefore, since we have been justified through faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1. "...God will credit righteousness for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead." Romans 4:24.

If God credits His righteousness to us, and we have been justified, and we have peace with God, who will condemn us? Only Satan, and he is the defeated one who will be cast into the lake of fire.

LST

MrPolo · Oct 27, 2009

LST 1154 said:
Have I sinned since receiving Christ? Yes. Did His work on the cross 2000 years ago eliminate all those sins? Yes, if not, it didn't eliminate any sin of anyone. [Christ's] act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience [Adam's] the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience [Christ's] the many will be made righteous. " Romans 5:18-19. Will God condemn me and will He hold me accountable for any of those sins? No. "There is therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1. Therefore, since we have been justified through faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1. "...God will credit righteousness for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead." Romans 4:24.

If God credits His righteousness to us, and we have been justified, and we have peace with God, who will condemn us? Only Satan, and he is the defeated one who will be cast into the lake of fire.

LST

I'm in agreement with all that. All I'm espousing is that those fallen tendencies will be erased permanently once we enter heaven. That erasing, or purging, we label "purgatory." No spot or blemish shall enter heaven after all!

That is the simplest way to understand it I think. I could go deeper into "satisfaction" but I'll stop there for now in light of staying on topic.

LST 1154 · Oct 27, 2009

MrPolo said:
No spot or blemish shall enter heaven after all!

So the real question is; does the child of the living God, the child that God has personally accepted into His family, the child that was chosen "in him before the foundation of the world" the child that has been imputed with the very righteousness of God Himself even have any spots or blemishes? Eph 5:25-27, "Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish."

The last time I checked, "the church" is made up of people who have been washed by the blood of the Lamb, of which I am a part, so since I am a part of that church I am holy and without blemish. PTL!

LST

Zeena · Oct 28, 2009

There's no such thing as imputed righteousness, that is a faulty translation.

LST 1154 · Oct 28, 2009

Zeena said:
There's no such thing as imputed righteousness, that is a faulty translation.

OK, substitute "counted as" in place of imputed.

LST

holyrokker · Oct 28, 2009

God doesn't count Christ's righteousness to us, He counts faith as righteousness.

sungaunga · Oct 28, 2009

holyrokker said:
God doesn't count Christ's righteousness to us, He counts faith as righteousness.

i see where you are coming from, but remember, our righteousness is no righteousness at all apart from the perfection of Christ' righteousness encompassing us. When you first reach out in faith to God through Christ, God gives you the righteousness of Christ. In other words, He clothes you in His own righteousness. From that moment and throughout eternity, whenever God looks at you, He sees the righteousness of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:21 says, He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Theologians call that imputed righteousness. God doesnt see our transgression as we stand clothed in Christs righteousness.

Zeena · Oct 29, 2009

sungaunga said:
i see where you are coming from, but remember, our righteousness is no righteousness at all apart from the perfection of Christ' righteousness encompassing us. When you first reach out in faith to God through Christ, God gives you the righteousness of Christ.

He doesn't give you the Righteousness of Christ, He gives you the Spirit of Jesus.

You can do with Him what you will;

Quench Him, grieve Him or abide in Him.

Tzaousios · Oct 30, 2009

Zeena said:
He doesn't give you the Righteousness of Christ, He gives you the Spirit of Jesus.

You can do with Him what you will;

Quench Him, grieve Him or abide in Him.

How do you know the righteousness of Christ is not given?

How does one "quench" the Holy Spirit (I am assuming that us what you mean by "the Spirit of Jesus")?

heymikey80 · Oct 31, 2009

Zeena said:
He doesn't give you the Righteousness of Christ, He gives you the Spirit of Jesus.

Hm. Is the Spirit righteous? And is He ours?

that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith Pp 3:9

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption 1 Cor 1:30

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:8-11

Zeena · Nov 2, 2009

Tzaousios said:
How do you know the righteousness of Christ is not given?

Righteousness is a character trait, and God is now in the process of perfecting our characters for Heaven.

Characters that were twisted at one time, persons who used to submit to sin and ever increasing wickedness.
Characters that were damaged by chosing sin over God that can now be in the process of healing by turning to Christ in God for Righteousness.

Acts 10:33-35
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Tzaousios said:
How does one "quench" the Holy Spirit (I am assuming that us what you mean by "the Spirit of Jesus")?

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 4:13
hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

heymikey80 said:
Hm. Is the Spirit righteous? And is He ours?

that I may gain Christ, and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith Pp 3:9

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5:21

But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption 1 Cor 1:30

Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Rom 6:8-11

Galatians 2:16-21
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Tzaousios · Nov 2, 2009

Zeena said:
Righteousness is a character trait, and God is now in the process of perfecting our characters for Heaven.

Characters that were twisted at one time, characters who used to submit to sin and ever increasing wickedness.
Characters that were damaged by chosing sin over God.

1 John 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 2:28
And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 John 4:13
hereby we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Honestly, I fail to see how any of these verses say that God does not apply the righteousness of Christ to believers and that the Holy Spirit can be quenched.

Christos Anesti · Nov 3, 2009

LST 1154,

I don't mean to debate the theoretical possibility of attaining a state in which one no longer sins or discount that others may have attained this state by saying this... but... I believe we should always consider ourselves the "first among sinners" to maintain a sense of humility before God and to avoid spiritual pride. To tell other people that we are "pretty close to being sinless" could be very dangerous to our humility and puff one up don't you think?

Zeena · Nov 5, 2009

Tzaousios said:
Honestly, I fail to see how any of these verses say that God does not apply the righteousness of Christ to believers and that the Holy Spirit can be quenched.

Ezekiel 18:24
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

Christos Anesti said:
LST 1154,

I don't mean to debate the theoretical possibility of attaining a state in which one no longer sins or discount that others may have attained this state by saying this... but... I believe we should always consider ourselves the "first among sinners" to maintain a sense of humility before God and to avoid spiritual pride. To tell other people that we are "pretty close to being sinless" could be very dangerous to our humility and puff one up don't you think?

Humility is not that of being found a sinner, it is a state of being, a willful choice to humble yoursef before the Allmighty, that He may sustain you.

MrPolo · Nov 5, 2009

If Paul believed God ignored his sins and only saw Christ's perfect righteousness in him, Paul would not have said:

Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.

Nor would John have said:

1 John 3:2-3 Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And every one who thus hopes in Him purifies himself as He is pure.

If God only sees Christ's righteousness after justification, there would be no "what we shall be" nor would any child of God need to purify himself any further.

Christos Anesti · Nov 6, 2009

Humility is not that of being found a sinner

I wasn't talking about God finding us to be a sinner. I was talking about how we view ourselves . Even the great Saint Paul called himself "chief among sinners"(1 Timothy 1:15).

In the Divine Liturgy of my Church we pray before communion : "
I believe, O Lord, and I confess that Thou art truly the Christ, the Son of the Living God, Who camest into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first."

I Don't Sin!

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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..called to BE a Saint

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Woe those who call evil good + good evil. Is 5:20

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