I did not err in truth...

[Abruer17]

After Jesus was made known to me, I was gifted to be in a church teaching Biblical truth without fear of reproach. Early on the words Calvinist, reformed, TULIP, Sola, and the rest were impressed onto me by gifted teachers. So I excelled in becoming a man able to explain these, defend them, and, thank God, find comfort in them.

However, as I finally left home for the "Big World" I soon discovered that these things were not on people's mind as they were with my friends. In fact, religion itself was of little discussion. For a while I simply did nothing, yet when the realization of what I was doing came to light...it nearly killed me.

It was not Jesus I worshipped, but these ideas of Jesus. Once these ideas were not surrounding me, there was nothing. No real person to run to.

What I am saying, I traded Jesus for "Reformed Theology." I am not saying the study of theology is wrong, but that it was done with the wrong frame of mind.

Has anyone else experienced this? Honestly, I think its why many people find the Emerging Church so attractive, because at the very least it tries to portray Christ as a person. How do we make sure the object of worship and the reason for theology is about Him, not fulfilling some academic goal?

 

[edie19]

After Jesus was made known to me, I was gifted to be in a church teaching Biblical truth without fear of reproach. Early on the words Calvinist, reformed, TULIP, Sola, and the rest were impressed onto me by gifted teachers. So I excelled in becoming a man able to explain these, defend them, and, thank God, find comfort in them.

However, as I finally left home for the "Big World" I soon discovered that these things were not on people's mind as they were with my friends. In fact, religion itself was of little discussion. For a while I simply did nothing, yet when the realization of what I was doing came to light...it nearly killed me.

It was not Jesus I worshipped, but these ideas of Jesus. Once these ideas were not surrounding me, there was nothing. No real person to run to.

What I am saying, I traded Jesus for "Reformed Theology." I am not saying the study of theology is wrong, but that it was done with the wrong frame of mind.

Has anyone else experienced this? Honestly, I think its why many people find the Emerging Church so attractive, because at the very least it tries to portray Christ as a person. How do we make sure the object of worship and the reason for theology is about Him, not fulfilling some academic goal?

To me the Gospel = doctrine, the two are inseparable. While I do study the confessions and catechisms and read theology - the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the foolishness of the cross, Christ and Him crucified always comes first. I am blessed to have a pastor who encourages my entire church family to study and learn - but he also emphasizes that all these things are secondary to Scripture. I think we absolutely need the theology though - our feelings and/or personal relationship with Christ isn't sufficient. Everyone's personal experiences are different - if all we have is the "personal" then we've no ground to stand on when talking with a Muslim or Hindu or agnostic.

It has to be Christ, as given to us in Scripture, first.

edie

 

[arunma]

At my church, people do a good job of keeping Christ, and not theology, at the center. But what you say could potentially become a problem. I think ultimately, we need to realize that theology is something we should use to magnify Christ, instead of itself.

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Has anyone else experienced this? Honestly, I think its why many people find the Emerging Church so attractive, because at the very least it tries to portray Christ as a person. How do we make sure the object of worship and the reason for theology is about Him, not fulfilling some academic goal?

I suppose I experienced the opposite from you. I started my life in Pentecostal churches where doctrine played a lo-o-o-o-o-ong second fiddle to simply being 'in the Spirit' and learning to love the person of Jesus. That stuff lead many around me (and me too, for about six months) to blab-it-grab-it theology. I just found Reformed theology in the lasy three years or so, and the anchor of sound theology is so-o-o-o-o freeing!!

 

[arunma]

I suppose I experienced the opposite from you. I started my life in Pentecostal churches where doctrine played a lo-o-o-o-o-ong second fiddle to simply being 'in the Spirit' and learning to love the person of Jesus. That stuff lead many around me (and me too, for about six months) to blab-it-grab-it theology. I just found Reformed theology in the lasy three years or so, and the anchor of sound theology is so-o-o-o-o freeing!!

It would appear then that theology and a genuine relationship with God through Christ is essential for a Christian to remain in Christ. Perhaps we all need to depart from the 'either/or' mentality, and understand that we must have both sound theology and love for the Person of Christ.

 

[Paleoconservatarian]

To me the Gospel = doctrine, the two are inseparable. While I do study the confessions and catechisms and read theology - the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the foolishness of the cross, Christ and Him crucified always comes first. I am blessed to have a pastor who encourages my entire church family to study and learn - but he also emphasizes that all these things are secondary to Scripture. I think we absolutely need the theology though - our feelings and/or personal relationship with Christ isn't sufficient. Everyone's personal experiences are different - if all we have is the "personal" then we've no ground to stand on when talking with a Muslim or Hindu or agnostic.

It has to be Christ, as given to us in Scripture, first.

edie

Why do your posts constantly sound like White Horse Inn broadcasts?

I agree, though. The cry of "Christ before doctrine" doesn't really make any sense. How can you follow Christ if you do not understand what that means? I am also annoyed by the "personal relationship" language because it does not convey the same idea to the modern man as the relationship revealed in Scripture.

I think the reason why the Emergent Church is so attractive to some, is that there is not enough emphasis on doctrine in so many churches. People are looking to "experience" Jesus personally because they're being taught that their own subjective experience is what's important.

 

[edie19]

Why do your posts constantly sound like White Horse Inn broadcasts?

I have no clue???

Actually they sound like my pastor (all good reformers sound alike you know)

edie

 

[calmcoolandelected]

I agree, though. The cry of "Christ before doctrine" doesn't really make any sense. How can you follow Christ if you do not understand what that means? I am also annoyed by the "personal relationship" language because it does not convey the same idea to the modern man as the relationship revealed in Scripture.

I think the reason why the Emergent Church is so attractive to some, is that there is not enough emphasis on doctrine in so many churches. People are looking to "experience" Jesus personally because they're being taught that their own subjective experience is what's important.

As Christians, do we have a responsibility to/for doctrine? What I mean by that is, will we be held accountable for knowing doctrine?

I am thinking about these verses specifically (I will look up Scripture references if you like) --

the ones about Christians who continually feed on "milk" rather than "meat"; and

the ones about Scripture being valuable for teaching, reproof, etc. and putting on the "armor of God".

I study Scripture/doctrine because I long to know God. I have run into folks whose doctrine is their idol. The opposite of that are those who don't study Scripture and have a wishy-washy Jesus -- we have all run into them. The danger with that is the devil often disguises himself and folks believe a lie.

We must always study Scripture in concert with prayer, a humble and teachable heart. We must ask God to reveal the Truth to us and remove sin from our hearts.

I know that in Reformed circles, doctrine is held high and that can sometimes be misunderstood. I think it is a desire to know God, His Truth and to preserve the peace and purity of the church. It grieves my heart as much or more to watch Christians trying to "work" for their salvation instead of understanding God's mercy and grace of the Cross than it does to watch unbelievers skip down the path to Hell.

CC&E

 

[mlqurgw]

My experience is much the same as yours. I was brought up on doctrine and even preached doctrine for several years without Christ. I was a cold dead Calvinist and associated with cold dead Calvinists. God finally brought me to a place that I learned that doctrine divorced from Christ is nothing. My pastor used this analogy and I now use it. Doctrine and theology is like a beautiful dress my wife wears. On her it is gorgeous, but lying on the bed without her it is only a dress. Christ is the object of doctrine and theology. Without Him it is as damning as any other self-righteous views.

 

[edie19]

My experience is much the same as yours. I was brought up on doctrine and even preached doctrine for several years without Christ. I was a cold dead Calvinist and associated with cold dead Calvinists. God finally brought me to a place that I learned that doctrine divorced from Christ is nothing. My pastor used this analogy and I now use it. Doctrine and theology is like a beautiful dress my wife wears. On her it is gorgeous, but lying on the bed without her it is only a dress. Christ is the object of doctrine and theology. Without Him it is as damning as any other self-righteous views.

I like that analogy - will be sharing with friends.

edie

 

[JJB]

Happy Birthday, Edie! May the Lord bless you today!

 

[JJB]

My experience is much the same as yours. I was brought up on doctrine and even preached doctrine for several years without Christ. I was a cold dead Calvinist and associated with cold dead Calvinists. God finally brought me to a place that I learned that doctrine divorced from Christ is nothing. My pastor used this analogy and I now use it. Doctrine and theology is like a beautiful dress my wife wears. On her it is gorgeous, but lying on the bed without her it is only a dress. Christ is the object of doctrine and theology. Without Him it is as damning as any other self-righteous views.

Always enjoy your posts, ml!

 

[mlqurgw]

I like that analogy - will be sharing with friends.

edie

Feel free to do so. I stole it from him and he dosen't mind. If he minded me stealing stuff from him I would have to keep my my mouth shut. Very little of what I say is original to me.

BTW; HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I will sing you the song that I used to sing to my beautiful daughters on their birthday:

Happy birthday to you
you live in a zoo
you look like a monkey
and smell like one too.

Of course you would have to see a picture of my 2 beautiful daughters to appreciate the humor. They are both gorgeous because they look like their mom. They are grown now and happily married to wonderful men. How quickly time passes. Boy, does that passage speak volumes now about man being as the flower of the grass.

 

[frumanchu]

My experience is much the same as yours. I was brought up on doctrine and even preached doctrine for several years without Christ. I was a cold dead Calvinist and associated with cold dead Calvinists. God finally brought me to a place that I learned that doctrine divorced from Christ is nothing. My pastor used this analogy and I now use it. Doctrine and theology is like a beautiful dress my wife wears. On her it is gorgeous, but lying on the bed without her it is only a dress. Christ is the object of doctrine and theology. Without Him it is as damning as any other self-righteous views.

I agree. Excellent analogy.

 

[edie19]

Happy Birthday, Edie! May the Lord bless you today!

Thank you very much - I am blessed indeed in both family and friends.

edie

 

[edie19]

Feel free to do so. I stole it from him and he dosen't mind. If he minded me stealing stuff from him I would have to keep my my mouth shut. Very little of what I say is original to me.

BTW; HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I will sing you the song that I used to sing to my beautiful daughters on their birthday:

Happy birthday to you
you live in a zoo
you look like a monkey
and smell like one too.

Of course you would have to see a picture of my 2 beautiful daughters to appreciate the humor. They are both gorgeous because they look like their mom. They are grown now and happily married to wonderful men. How quickly time passes. Boy, does that passage speak volumes now about man being as the flower of the grass.

Thank you for the song.

I hear you about time passing - I'm currently watching my two grandsons doing things their dad was doing just yesterday.

edie

 

[Rick Otto]

"Has anyone else experienced this? Honestly, I think its why many people find the Emerging Church so attractive, because at the very least it tries to portray Christ as a person. How do we make sure the object of worship and the reason for theology is about Him, not fulfilling some academic goal?"

Abruer,
You seem to have had the opposite experience of most of us, thankfully with the same conclusion - remaining concern for our relationship with Christ.
Cool. Unnerving sometimes, but our vulnerability is good reason to trust Him. Too many of us aren't so conscious of our weaknesses.

Maybe what gets all the press as "The Emerging Church" contains a remnant of elect within, but the doctrinal chaos is at least equal to the blind hypocrasy I observed in my two adjacent RC parishes, pre-High School( I quit attending Mass and switched to Public (Givt.) School.

I had a "Theophany" early, on my 4th birthday, and it was so intense, it braced me for all tradition I was bound for (pun intended).
After adrenaline & seratonin burn-out from 12+ years with the garden variety non-denoms (charismatic/pentecostal).
It got pretty ridiculous, but I was playing (music), so I found it pretty easy to hang in there.
But when we were handed a wierd prophecy that flopped, my wife "got attitude" (it was the last straw) & promptly got slapped with a label- JEZEBEL!LOL!
Whatever.
I was glad it was over. I saw the whole experience as a bout with churchianity over my wife's affections. I was p*ss*d, but vindicated ( chuckle).

It was just then that I happened to go on line (my wife's courageous efforts) and discovered The Reformation, only not the glossy digested & abridged version.
"Freeing" is certainly a good description of what I felt, but I never realy lost that intimacy I felt at 4yrs old. It varied over my rebelious years & seasons of unbelief of course, but I never felt abandoned as one of His.
I feel like He kept me "because" my intents were "good" for the most part, but I know, & feel it more as time passes, that whatever good there has been of me, it has been His doing. I am cynical & jaded to the core.
But I'm not hounded or haunted by it, it's the daily grind of spritual reality.
So like i hope I don't sound somber or unhappy, because I enjoy a great deal of humor in my life.

Very interesting witness, Abruer. thanks for sharin'.
Rick

 

[heymikey80]

Yes. In fact it was one of my first struggles as a Christian, with my chief mentor confronting me (still in high school) with the point that being Christian wasn't how well I understood the facts of theology -- but about whether I followed the Truth of God, Who is a Person, not a body of knowledge.

Knowledge is a great thing. You can put it to use, you gain great insight, you learn when you've been deceived. But "knowledge puffs up". Knowing makes it easy to pan and discard ideas that other people hold dear, without a thought for redeeming those people. You have the answers; who cares about the rest?

Well, God cares about those who don't have the answers -- and He doesn't care simply to correct the factual errors, but to remake them for glory.

So that's the big deal.

Your ability to tell the truth to others is fantastic. I commend what the Spirit's given you. Keep doing it. Also learn to do it in such a way that your words follow the Spirit into the hearts of those He chooses. "The Spirit blows where it wants, you can't hear where it's coming or going -- and it's the same way with those who are born of the Spirit" (Jn 3:8 I think)

I can't tell you how, where, or what it sounds like. There's no knowledge here. I just know it's true.

 

[Erinwilcox]

Happy birthday, Edie!

 

[Abruer17]

Thanks for the great words. I'm in the Army, deployed in Iraq, so my christian fellowship is very, lets say, limited. By that I mean one other person here follows Christ. So, I really appreciate the time and thought!