I became sick when I started reading about the Doctrine of Reprobation. Thoughts on it?

GillDouglas · Apr 8, 2017

"Tis not that I did choose Thee,
For Lord, that could not be;
This heart would still refuse Thee,
Hadst Thou not chosen me...

My heart owns none before Thee,
For Thy rich grace I thirst;
This knowing, if I love Thee,
Thou must have loved me first."

- Josiah Conder, 1836

EmSw · Apr 9, 2017

GillDouglas said:
@EmSw Adam earned us death and eternity of suffering, a spiritual attribute not physical (except the death part).

Doug, I must ask, is it God's will that you keep His commandments? If it is, why is it not your desire to keep them? Why is it you think you can't obey His will and keep them?

Do you have a better way than what Jesus told us? Do you find anywhere Jesus told we do not need to keep His commandments? I know you want to blame it on Adam, but Adam isn't here; it's just you and Jesus. So, I'm wondering who are you going to follow, Adam or Jesus?

Albion · Apr 9, 2017

EmSw said:
Doug, I must ask, is it God's will that you keep His commandments? If it is, why is it not your desire to keep them? Why is it you think you can't obey His will and keep them?

Any good theologian will tell you that no one can keep them perfectly and consistently. If any of us could, we wouldn't need a Savior. Don't get into the habit of thinking that you keep most of them pretty well or that trying is good enough. Even one sin estranges us from God, except only for the forgiveness that comes through Faith in Christ.

EmSw · Apr 9, 2017

Albion said:
Any good theologian will tell you that no one can keep them perfectly and consistently. If any of us could, we wouldn't need a Savior. Don't get into the habit of thinking that you keep most of them pretty well or that trying is good enough. Even one sin estranges us from God, except only for the forgiveness that comes through Faith in Christ.

So you don't believe in doing God's will. Is it your desire to do His will or not? If you want to do what you want to do, then by all means, don't obey Him. I'm sure you have a better way than Jesus.

No one has said to keep them perfectly. Why do you all keep saying this? If I said you had to believe in Jesus perfectly, you would fail in that too.

Forgiveness comes through repentance, not faith.

Albion · Apr 9, 2017

EmSw said:
So you don't believe in doing God's will.

I didn't say that and you know it.

Is it your desire to do His will or not?

It is.

No one has said to keep them perfectly.

Well, that's what keeping the law means! You don't get right with God by doing his will occasionally or partially.

Forgiveness comes through repentance, not faith.

Let me correct that for you. Forgiveness comes through repentance which is made possible only by Faith.

EmSw · Apr 9, 2017

Albion said:
I didn't say that and you know it.

So, do you believe in keeping His commandments, in order that you may know Him?

Albion said:
It is.

Good, then if His will is keeping His commandments in order that you may enter life, do you believe that?

Albion said:
Well, that's what keeping the law means! You don't get right with God by doing his will occasionally or partially.

So, do you occasionally murder? Do you occasionally lie? Do you occasionally steal? Do you occasionally commit adultery? Or do you cast away all your transgressions in order to make yourself a new heart and new spirit?

Albion said:
Let me correct that for you. Forgiveness comes through repentance which is made possible only by Faith.

Is faith from the lips or the heart? Is repentance from the lips or the heart? Is it genuine repentance if you only acknowledge it from the lips?

Albion · Apr 9, 2017

EmSw said:
So, do you believe in keeping His commandments, in order that you may know Him?

I didn't say that either.

Good, then if His will is keeping His commandments in order that you may enter life, do you believe that?

I believe it is his will that we keep his Commandments, but he also knows that we cannot do that. Every one of us fails at it. The Bible reminds us that the just man falls seven times a day--and that's the JUST man!

So, do you occasionally murder? Do you occasionally lie? Do you occasionally steal? Do you occasionally commit adultery? Or do you cast away all your transgressions in order to make yourself a new heart and new spirit?

Like you, I do what's right part of the time and I fall at other times. Remember that it isn't only the most heinous misdeeds like murder that are sins, as witness the admonition that even looking at a woman with lust in ones' heart amounts to adultery.

Is faith from the lips or the heart?

Heart. But we're called to confess our faith as well.

sdowney717 · Apr 9, 2017

If one who is blessed by God falls, he will still be saved since God will grant that he repent since the Lord intercedes on his behalf.

Psalm 37:22-24New King James Version (NKJV)
22 For those blessed by Him shall inherit the earth,
But those cursed by Him shall be cut off.

23 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord,
And He delights in his way.
24 Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down;
For the Lord upholds him with His hand.

Same as Romans 8 teaches.

26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

God's will is your salvation and sanctification for those He has blessed by making them born of God according to His will for their lives.
And someday, we will inherit the earth and the wicked will be gone, never to be remembered.

sdowney717 · Apr 9, 2017

Psalm 37

9 For evildoers shall be cut off;
But those who wait on the Lord,
They shall inherit the earth.
10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;
Indeed, you will look carefully for his place,
But it shall be no more.
11 But the meek shall inherit the earth,
And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

GillDouglas · Apr 10, 2017

EmSw said:
Doug, I must ask, is it God's will that you keep His commandments? If it is, why is it not your desire to keep them? Why is it you think you can't obey His will and keep them?

Do you have a better way than what Jesus told us? Do you find anywhere Jesus told we do not need to keep His commandments? I know you want to blame it on Adam, but Adam isn't here; it's just you and Jesus. So, I'm wondering who are you going to follow, Adam or Jesus?

Hey Wayne, just a thought, instead of focusing on my lack of perfection, lets talk about two well known disciples of Jesus: Peter and Judas. Some may not agree with me on this comparison, but both of these men stumbled and gravely sinned against Jesus: Peter denied Him, to save his own skin and Judas thought he could do good by selling Jesus out for money. Here we have proof that even apostles (then and now) are subject to sin!

Judas sinned terribly. He repented and was sorry and he even confessed his sin. But these things did not save him, because he was NOT chosen to be a part of Christ. Peter's sin was no different than Judas', it was selfish and he was even warned by Jesus that he would do screw up! But what separates him apart from Judas is that he was chosen to be a part of Christ, as evident by Jesus interceding on his behalf, and praying for him. So even here we can see that men, on equal footing both chosen as disciples and both sinners against God have been unconditionally elected, one for redemption and the other to wrath.

What lessons can we take away from this? All men, regardless of their spiritual condition and relationship with God, are subject to sin. If we are in Christ, then we will go to Him for forgiveness, not men. It's not what we do that redeems us, but what Christ has done (and does) for us.

EmSw · Apr 15, 2017

GillDouglas said:
Hey Wayne, just a thought, instead of focusing on my lack of perfection, lets talk about two well known disciples of Jesus: Peter and Judas. Some may not agree with me on this comparison, but both of these men stumbled and gravely sinned against Jesus: Peter denied Him, to save his own skin and Judas thought he could do good by selling Jesus out for money. Here we have proof that even apostles (then and now) are subject to sin!

Okay Doug, we won't focus on our lack of perfection.

Everyone is subject to sin.

GillDouglas said:
Judas sinned terribly. He repented and was sorry and he even confessed his sin. But these things did not save him, because he was NOT chosen to be a part of Christ. Peter's sin was no different than Judas', it was selfish and he was even warned by Jesus that he would do screw up! But what separates him apart from Judas is that he was chosen to be a part of Christ, as evident by Jesus interceding on his behalf, and praying for him. So even here we can see that men, on equal footing both chosen as disciples and both sinners against God have been unconditionally elected, one for redemption and the other to wrath.

Why wasn't Judas chosen? Did he join the twelve on his own accord? Let's see what Jesus said before we make any rash beliefs.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas, along with the other eleven, were given to Jesus by the Father. None were snatched from Jesus' hand except the son of perdition.

GillDouglas said:
What lessons can we take away from this? All men, regardless of their spiritual condition and relationship with God, are subject to sin. If we are in Christ, then we will go to Him for forgiveness, not men. It's not what we do that redeems us, but what Christ has done (and does) for us.

You say 'we will go to Him for forgiveness', and through the other side of your mouth, you say 'it's not what we do'. So, what is it, what we do or what we don't do?

Was this revealed to you? Or, are you just taking what other men have said? I gave FG2 Deuteronomy 29:29 in another post. Perhaps we should put it here too.

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Please notice, if anything is revealed to us, it is for a reason. Do you agree?

Moses wrote the reason things are revealed to us is 'that we may do all the words of this law'.

So Doug, is it your contention that you keep all the words of the law when things are revealed to you?

GillDouglas · Apr 16, 2017

EmSw said:
Okay Doug, we won't focus on our lack of perfection.

Everyone is subject to sin.

On this, we can agree on.

Why wasn't Judas chosen? Did he join the twelve on his own accord? Let's see what Jesus said before we make any rash beliefs.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas, along with the other eleven, were given to Jesus by the Father. None were snatched from Jesus' hand except the son of perdition.

He was chosen to be one of the twelve and to fulfill his purpose according to God's plan. However we know that he was not of Christ, by whom he went to for forgiveness, the high priests.

You say 'we will go to Him for forgiveness', and through the other side of your mouth, you say 'it's not what we do'. So, what is it, what we do or what we don't do?

Was this revealed to you? Or, are you just taking what other men have said? I gave FG2 Deuteronomy 29:29 in another post. Perhaps we should put it here too.

The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Please notice, if anything is revealed to us, it is for a reason. Do you agree?

Moses wrote the reason things are revealed to us is 'that we may do all the words of this law'.

So Doug, is it your contention that you keep all the words of the law when things are revealed to you?

What I mean by this is that God is Lord, and we are not. God is sovereign in creation, redemption, and judgement. The power to save lies with God, and that is why we beg Him for forgiveness, and must not rely on our works to save us. The fact that we thank God for our salvation and plea for our friends and family who are lost, is enough to agree with this point. Every aspect of salvation is from God, and it is entirely dependent upon Him. Salvation was purchased by God, applied by God, and secured by God. The only contribution that man provides is the sin that was laid upon Christ at the Cross.

EmSw · Apr 16, 2017

GillDouglas said:
He was chosen to be one of the twelve and to fulfill his purpose according to God's plan. However we know that he was not of Christ, by whom he went to for forgiveness, the high priests.

He was chosen to be an apostle of Jesus. You won't find he was chosen to fulfill his purpose according to God's will. In that scenario, everyone is chosen.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Does this make you wonder how many today are chosen and are devils? Besides, Jesus said He lost none but the son of perdition. This means he was snatched out of Jesus' hand.

GillDouglas said:
What I mean by this is that God is Lord, and we are not. God is sovereign in creation, redemption, and judgement.

Then why not believe the sovereign God and His sovereign word?

Matthew 19:17
So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

It doesn't get any plainer than this. But natural man doesn't like His sovereign words and will find another way to enter life.

GillDouglas said:
The power to save lies with God, and that is why we beg Him for forgiveness, and must not rely on our works to save us. The fact that we thank God for our salvation and plea for our friends and family who are lost, is enough to agree with this point. Every aspect of salvation is from God, and it is entirely dependent upon Him.

This is what I mean above. Jesus said if you want to enter life, keep the commandments. And here, you tell us we must not rely on our works to save us. Who do you love more, Jesus or Paul? Who should we trust, Jesus or Paul?

GillDouglas said:
Salvation was purchased by God, applied by God, and secured by God. The only contribution that man provides is the sin that was laid upon Christ at the Cross.

This has nothing to do with keeping His commandments to enter life. You have conveniently found another way than what the sovereign Savior told us. I guess the back door was open, and you are trying to sneak in that way. If you think you can stealthily get in that way, I can assure you, you will be kicked out, for this makes you a thief and a robber.

I became sick when I started reading about the Doctrine of Reprobation. Thoughts on it?

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