Hypocrisy runs amuck

[karisma]

I have ventured these boards a few times and am simply amazed at some people's opinions on abortion. While I am for abortions for any reason, I can understand some people's reasoning behind abortion for only certain causes (rape, incest, etc). I especially direct this though, towards those who believe that a woman should NEVER be allowed an abortion-even if it was caused by rape or is threatening her health.

When exactly did the rights of a small clump of cells trump the rights of a living and breathing woman? Terminating a pregnancy in the earliest stages is simply removing a cluster of cells. What's with the loaded terminology here? It's not murder (as murder is defined). It's not a baby. It's an embryo. It is not sentient. It knows nothing.

Here's where I see the hypocrisy. You who are SO obsessed over what another woman does with a pregnancy that she does not want (for whatever reason) what are you personally doing for those humans that are alive right now and need help? Do you donate blood plasma? Are you marked as an organ donar on your driver's license? Did you know that there are over 75,000 people (2001 figure) waiting for lifesaving transplants, and almost half of those waiting will die before recieving one? Even better, why not just donate a kidney right now? You'll have made a world of difference (and possibly save a life) to someone, somewhere. Why haven't you donated that kidney, eh?

What about financially? I'm not talking about just throwing your extra change into the donation cup at the supermarket or even giving your $30 a month to the Save the Children foundation, while you drive off in your FlexFuel SUV and go home and sit on your leather sofa and watch your plasma TV. I'm talking really giving what you know you can- making personal sacrifices and giving thousands of dollars a year (or more) to these worthwhile organizations.

My opinion is this: there are people alive and suffering and dying in this world right now, and we should first be helping those who are truly in need, rather than trying to force a woman who has already been psychologicaly traumatized (whether through rape, a boyfriend who freaked and left her once he learned she was pregnant, whatever) to carry a baby she does not want and resents.

 

[Calliso]

I have ventured these boards a few times and am simply amazed at some people's opinions on abortion. While I am for abortions for any reason, I can understand some people's reasoning behind abortion for only certain causes (rape, incest, etc). I especially direct this though, towards those who believe that a woman should NEVER be allowed an abortion-even if it was caused by rape or is threatening her health.

When exactly did the rights of a small clump of cells trump the rights of a living and breathing woman? Terminating a pregnancy in the earliest stages is simply removing a cluster of cells. What's with the loaded terminology here? It's not murder (as murder is defined). It's not a baby. It's an embryo. It is not sentient. It knows nothing.

Here's where I see the hypocrisy. You who are SO obsessed over what another woman does with a pregnancy that she does not want (for whatever reason) what are you personally doing for those humans that are alive right now and need help? Do you donate blood plasma? Are you marked as an organ donar on your driver's license? Did you know that there are over 75,000 people (2001 figure) waiting for lifesaving transplants, and almost half of those waiting will die before recieving one? Even better, why not just donate a kidney right now? You'll have made a world of difference (and possibly save a life) to someone, somewhere. Why haven't you donated that kidney, eh?

What about financially? I'm not talking about just throwing your extra change into the donation cup at the supermarket or even giving your $30 a month to the Save the Children foundation, while you drive off in your FlexFuel SUV and go home and sit on your leather sofa and watch your plasma TV. I'm talking really giving what you know you can- making personal sacrifices and giving thousands of dollars a year (or more) to these worthwhile organizations.

My opinion is this: there are people alive and suffering and dying in this world right now, and we should first be helping those who are truly in need, rather than trying to force a woman who has already been psychologicaly traumatized (whether through rape, a boyfriend who freaked and left her once he learned she was pregnant, whatever) to carry a baby she does not want and resents.

WOW excellently said!!!

 

[HypnoToad]

When exactly did the rights of a small clump of cells trump the rights of a living and breathing woman? Terminating a pregnancy in the earliest stages is simply removing a cluster of cells. What's with the loaded terminology here? It's not murder (as murder is defined). It's not a baby. It's an embryo. It is not sentient. It knows nothing.

You are wrong.

As I referenced in another thread:
"The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms." Before We Are Born - Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. By Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud. W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition. Page 500.

Before We Are Born is a medical textbook used in universities.

Here's where I see the hypocrisy. You who are SO obsessed over what another woman does with a pregnancy that she does not want (for whatever reason) what are you personally doing for those humans that are alive right now and need help? Do you donate blood plasma? Are you marked as an organ donar on your driver's license? Did you know that there are over 75,000 people (2001 figure) waiting for lifesaving transplants, and almost half of those waiting will die before recieving one? Even better, why not just donate a kidney right now? You'll have made a world of difference (and possibly save a life) to someone, somewhere. Why haven't you donated that kidney, eh?

What about financially? I'm not talking about just throwing your extra change into the donation cup at the supermarket or even giving your $30 a month to the Save the Children foundation, while you drive off in your FlexFuel SUV and go home and sit on your leather sofa and watch your plasma TV. I'm talking really giving what you know you can- making personal sacrifices and giving thousands of dollars a year (or more) to these worthwhile organizations.

My opinion is this: there are people alive and suffering and dying in this world right now, and we should first be helping those who are truly in need, rather than trying to force a woman who has already been psychologicaly traumatized (whether through rape, a boyfriend who freaked and left her once he learned she was pregnant, whatever) to carry a baby she does not want and resents.

I already give thousands of dollars of my money through taxes, which the government then gives to those in need.

I have no "flexfuel SUV". I have no "leather sofa". I have no "plasma TV".

 

[karisma]

You are wrong.

As I referenced in another thread:
"The zygote and early embryo are living human organisms." Before We Are Born - Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. By Keith L. Moore & T.V.N. Persaud. W.B. Saunders Company, 1998. Fifth edition. Page 500.

Before We Are Born is a medical textbook used in universities.

What exactly was I wrong about? I never said it was not a living clump of cells. It's alive. But it's not sentient.

I already give thousands of dollars of my money through taxes, which the government then gives to those in need.

Oh really? What percent? And do you really consider that enough? Since you are so concerned with saving lives?

I have no "flexfuel SUV". I have no "leather sofa". I have no "plasma TV".

You may not have those specifics but I would hope one would get my point here.

 

[HypnoToad]

What exactly was I wrong about? I never said it was not a living clump of cells. It's alive. But it's not sentient.

It's a human being. Therefore, to willfully kill it is murder.

Oh really? What percent? And do you really consider that enough? Since you are so concerned with saving lives?

Oh, first it was accusing of not giving. Now, not giving enough. Needless to say, my finances are none of your business. However, if anyone saw my belongings and where I live, they wouldn't be so quick to condemn me as you.

You may not have those specifics but I would hope one would get my point here.

Well, I'm nowhere near living in "the lap of luxury".

 

[karisma]

It's a human being. Therefore, to willfully kill it is murder.

You're using loaded and incorrect terminology. "Murder" is a legal term and is obviously, illegal. Abortion is legal. Therefore it follows that it's not technically murder.

Oh, first it was accusing of not giving. Now, not giving enough. Needless to say, my finances are none of your business. However, if anyone saw my belongings and where I live, they wouldn't be so quick to condemn me as you.

If you'll refer to my OP you'll notice I did originally accuse people of not giving enough. Like I mentioned, you'll toss your spare change or give your dollar a day-but compared to our income most people are capable of much more.

And why are you so quick to judge those who choose what for them is the best option (abortion) when you are not willing to make such sacrifices to save others in need?

 

[HypnoToad]

You're using loaded and incorrect terminology. "Murder" is a legal term and is obviously, illegal. Abortion is legal. Therefore it follows that it's not technically murder.

Really? I thought this was the "ethical" forum, not the "legal" one. Is it your position that no Jews were murdered in the holocaust, since the Nazi government's position was that it was ok?

And why are you so quick to judge those who choose what for them is the best option (abortion) when you are not willing to make such sacrifices to save others in need?

"Such sacrifices"?? I am totally willing to make the sacrifice to not commit murder just to make my life easier.

 

[Calliso]

Really? I thought this was the "ethical" forum, not the "legal" one. Is it your position that no Jews were murdered in the holocaust, since the Nazi government's position was that it was ok?


"Such sacrifices"?? I am totally willing to make the sacrifice to not commit murder just to make my life easier.

Carrying a baby for 9 monthes is a HUGE sacrafice. Carrying the baby when have just gone through an devasting event...even worse. You just have no clue do you I am sorry but I guess you are lucky you are a man and will never have to face these things..so it is super easy for you to stand on your little pulpit and make it sound like women are just being selfish like they aren;t sacrifcing much at all.

 

[HypnoToad]

Carrying the baby when have just gone through an devasting event...even worse.

Murder doesn't make it any better.

I'll ask here also -
The woman is so "devastated", so "traumatized", so "mentally broken down", but then has sound enough judgement to decide that another human being deserves to die for no fault of their own?

Do you think a murder victim's family members are allowed to sit in the jury for that murderer's trial? Do you know why not?

 

[Calliso]

Murder doesn't make it any better.

I'll ask here also -
The woman is so "devastated", so "traumatized", so "mentally broken down", but then has sound enough judgement to decide that another human being deserves to die for no fault of their own?

Do you think a murder victim's family members are allowed to sit in the jury for that murderer's trial? Do you know why not?

Where did I say their judgement was sound? You are implying here that it was the right decsion? I am confused, People make decisions good and bad in all sorts of mental conditions all the time. In this case the decision is more likely to be be based on how she feels..as she is not likely to be able to logically think the decision through point by point. Though I guess some women could. It;s not like they would be thinking something like this.. Ok I was raped and got pregnant that sucks..Ok I donlt want this baby lets abort. More like [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]...I am pregnant what will I do? OH GOD how could this happen to me?! I can;t handle this I just can;t handle this! Well really I suck at protraying thoughts..but I imagine they would be a mess not sound and cold logic. people who kill themselves usually aren;t in a good mental state either.

 

[HypnoToad]

Where did I say their judgement was sound? You are implying here that it was the right decsion? I am confused, People make decisions good and bad in all sorts of mental conditions all the time. In this case the decision is more likely to be be based on how she feels..as she is not likely to be able to logically think the decision through point by point. Though I guess some women could. It;s not like they would be thinking something like this.. Ok I was raped and got pregnant that sucks..Ok I donlt want this baby lets abort. More like [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]...I am pregnant what will I do? OH GOD how could this happen to me?! I can;t handle this I just can;t handle this! Well really I suck at protraying thoughts..but I imagine they would be a mess not sound and cold logic. people who kill themselves usually aren;t in a good mental state either.

So, then you admit their judgement isn't sound enough to end another human's life, and you also seem to be agreeing that abortion is the wrong decision.

 

[Sojourner<><]

I have ventured these boards a few times and am simply amazed at some people's opinions on abortion. While I am for abortions for any reason, I can understand some people's reasoning behind abortion for only certain causes (rape, incest, etc). I especially direct this though, towards those who believe that a woman should NEVER be allowed an abortion-even if it was caused by rape or is threatening her health.

When exactly did the rights of a small clump of cells trump the rights of a living and breathing woman? Terminating a pregnancy in the earliest stages is simply removing a cluster of cells. What's with the loaded terminology here? It's not murder (as murder is defined). It's not a baby. It's an embryo. It is not sentient. It knows nothing.

Here's where I see the hypocrisy. You who are SO obsessed over what another woman does with a pregnancy that she does not want (for whatever reason) what are you personally doing for those humans that are alive right now and need help? Do you donate blood plasma? Are you marked as an organ donar on your driver's license? Did you know that there are over 75,000 people (2001 figure) waiting for lifesaving transplants, and almost half of those waiting will die before recieving one? Even better, why not just donate a kidney right now? You'll have made a world of difference (and possibly save a life) to someone, somewhere. Why haven't you donated that kidney, eh?

What about financially? I'm not talking about just throwing your extra change into the donation cup at the supermarket or even giving your $30 a month to the Save the Children foundation, while you drive off in your FlexFuel SUV and go home and sit on your leather sofa and watch your plasma TV. I'm talking really giving what you know you can- making personal sacrifices and giving thousands of dollars a year (or more) to these worthwhile organizations.

My opinion is this: there are people alive and suffering and dying in this world right now, and we should first be helping those who are truly in need, rather than trying to force a woman who has already been psychologicaly traumatized (whether through rape, a boyfriend who freaked and left her once he learned she was pregnant, whatever) to carry a baby she does not want and resents.

It's been my experience that Christians are more obsessed with truth than with the choices of others. It's in our best interest that we at least try to do our part to make sure the ways of our nation are acceptable to God.

As far as abortion goes, I am definately pro-choice. All women should have the right to choose and accept the risks of pregnancy before inception and not after the fact, and in those cases where that right is denied I suppose that's open to debate. But in cases of accidental pregnancies, who should bear the consequence? The guilty party or the innocent victim?

 

[Trashionista]

I have ventured these boards a few times and am simply amazed at some people's opinions on abortion. While I am for abortions for any reason, I can understand some people's reasoning behind abortion for only certain causes (rape, incest, etc). I especially direct this though, towards those who believe that a woman should NEVER be allowed an abortion-even if it was caused by rape or is threatening her health.

When exactly did the rights of a small clump of cells trump the rights of a living and breathing woman? Terminating a pregnancy in the earliest stages is simply removing a cluster of cells. What's with the loaded terminology here? It's not murder (as murder is defined). It's not a baby. It's an embryo. It is not sentient. It knows nothing.

Here's where I see the hypocrisy. You who are SO obsessed over what another woman does with a pregnancy that she does not want (for whatever reason) what are you personally doing for those humans that are alive right now and need help? Do you donate blood plasma? Are you marked as an organ donar on your driver's license? Did you know that there are over 75,000 people (2001 figure) waiting for lifesaving transplants, and almost half of those waiting will die before recieving one? Even better, why not just donate a kidney right now? You'll have made a world of difference (and possibly save a life) to someone, somewhere. Why haven't you donated that kidney, eh?

What about financially? I'm not talking about just throwing your extra change into the donation cup at the supermarket or even giving your $30 a month to the Save the Children foundation, while you drive off in your FlexFuel SUV and go home and sit on your leather sofa and watch your plasma TV. I'm talking really giving what you know you can- making personal sacrifices and giving thousands of dollars a year (or more) to these worthwhile organizations.

My opinion is this: there are people alive and suffering and dying in this world right now, and we should first be helping those who are truly in need, rather than trying to force a woman who has already been psychologicaly traumatized (whether through rape, a boyfriend who freaked and left her once he learned she was pregnant, whatever) to carry a baby she does not want and resents.

Maybe it could be interpreted as a tad harsh, but I agree with everything you said. Nicely done.

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

Telling a women she is not responsible for her baby and has a right to abort it when she had consensual sense is like telling a serial killer he's not responsible for killing three people but the person who gave him the gun is. If it's in a situation like rape for a younger girl, I understand. If it's threatening her health, I oppose it, but not if it's just a couple who didn't think before they acted.

As for the little lump of cells comment, that little lump of cells has not had a chance to live. Life's cycle commands that life is taken and life is born. An unborn hasn't had a chance to live where the mother has had a lifetime. I think it's only fair she gives the baby a chance. Watch Lion King a couple times and you'll see why.'

Lest I also point out Christ's sacrifice?

 

[Calliso]

So, then you admit their judgement isn't sound enough to end another human's life, and you also seem to be agreeing that abortion is the wrong decision.

UGH NO gah I suck at giving examples. I do think sometimes abortion would be the wrong decision yes. But in some cases it is the best one! It doesn;t take sound judgement to end someones life that is what you donlt get! Really it;s impossible to example to someone who apparently has never been in a state of extreme emotionally detress this sort of thing. I have been in that state though before and still suffer from mild depression that sometimes flares up so I can understand unlike you apparently.

 

[jad123]

I have ventured these boards a few times and am simply amazed at some people's opinions on abortion. While I am for abortions for any reason, I can understand some people's reasoning behind abortion for only certain causes (rape, incest, etc). I especially direct this though, towards those who believe that a woman should NEVER be allowed an abortion-even if it was caused by rape or is threatening her health.

When exactly did the rights of a small clump of cells trump the rights of a living and breathing woman? Terminating a pregnancy in the earliest stages is simply removing a cluster of cells. What's with the loaded terminology here? It's not murder (as murder is defined). It's not a baby. It's an embryo. It is not sentient. It knows nothing.

Here's where I see the hypocrisy. You who are SO obsessed over what another woman does with a pregnancy that she does not want (for whatever reason) what are you personally doing for those humans that are alive right now and need help? Do you donate blood plasma? Are you marked as an organ donar on your driver's license? Did you know that there are over 75,000 people (2001 figure) waiting for lifesaving transplants, and almost half of those waiting will die before recieving one? Even better, why not just donate a kidney right now? You'll have made a world of difference (and possibly save a life) to someone, somewhere. Why haven't you donated that kidney, eh?

What about financially? I'm not talking about just throwing your extra change into the donation cup at the supermarket or even giving your $30 a month to the Save the Children foundation, while you drive off in your FlexFuel SUV and go home and sit on your leather sofa and watch your plasma TV. I'm talking really giving what you know you can- making personal sacrifices and giving thousands of dollars a year (or more) to these worthwhile organizations.

My opinion is this: there are people alive and suffering and dying in this world right now, and we should first be helping those who are truly in need, rather than trying to force a woman who has already been psychologicaly traumatized (whether through rape, a boyfriend who freaked and left her once he learned she was pregnant, whatever) to carry a baby she does not want and resents.

Sp please enlighten us as to when the child gets his or her soul?

I have an SUV, sit on a leather couch, but don't have a plasma yet. What does that have to do with anything. Do you have any clue what I do in my life? How much money I donate or time that I give? We live in a society that is freaking out about trees being cut down and so called man made global warming rather than helping the poor and stopping the killing of innocent children. So what is your point. You are right hypocrisy runs amuck!

 

[jad123]

Carrying a baby for 9 monthes is a HUGE sacrafice. Carrying the baby when have just gone through an devasting event...even worse. You just have no clue do you I am sorry but I guess you are lucky you are a man and will never have to face these things..so it is super easy for you to stand on your little pulpit and make it sound like women are just being selfish like they aren;t sacrifcing much at all.

Give it rest. This is not a male vs. female thing. If I had my wife come to the computer she would tell you without hesitating abortion is wrong in all cases.

 

[Calliso]

Give it rest. This is not a male vs. female thing. If I had my wife come to the computer she would tell you without hesitating abortion is wrong in all cases.

So even if the pregnancy will kill the woman she shouldn;t get an abortion. Gee how nice... Anyway that is just your wifes opinion and I am curious..why does she think abortion is wrong in all cases? I can understand not wanting it used for birthcontrol or crap like that..but does she really believe that women should be forced to die instead of live because their pregnant and ti will kill them?

 

[HypnoToad]

It doesn;t take sound judgement to end someones life that is what you donlt get!

That is perhaps the most disturbing comment I've seen yet.

You actually think a sound, stable mind shouldn't be required in deciding whether or not another human being lives or dies???

 

[MomWhoThinks]

Prochoice people often use the rape/life of the mother issue as justification, but it is not. While nothing can justify the destruction of an innocent human simply because they possess fewer cells then we adults, abortion does not fix the real problems of rape/incest and "life of the mother."

Abortion does not make the rape go away. It has never been found to make it easier.

Abortion does not solve rape. It simply transforms the victim into a victimizer. Jackie B. had an abortion after a rape. She later said: "I soon discovered that the aftermath of the abortion continued a long time after the memory of my rape had faded. I felt empty and horrible. Nobody told me about the emptiness and pain I would feel deep within, causing nightmares and deep depressions. They had all told me that after the abortion I would continue on with my life as if nothing had happened. ... I found that though I could forgive the man who raped me, I couldn't forgive myself for having the abortion."

Women who are raped get cleaned out at the hospital. Rapes reported immediately cannot result in abortion. Only 1% of women seeking abortion even claim to have been raped. It's not the prominent issue pro-choicers make it out to be.

I have yet to hear a real medical case where a women had to have an abortion to live. In cases where say, a women develops cancewr while pregnant, every effort is made to get the fetus to a point to be delivered and the mothers wouldn't have it any other way. If a women loses her baby during pregnancy due to her medical condition, it is a time of greiving for her, not a choice she made. Prochoices portray some mythical scenerio where a pregnany women or her family is given a choice of abort now or she dies. That isn't reality.