Hyper-Grace Misunderstood

WOFFED · Apr 6, 2013

Isn't the purpose of hyer-grace to reveal God's hyper-love. Until one comes to the realization of how much God loves us, really, really how very much He Loves mankind we won't have the desire and ability to diminish our sinful nature. Yet, many interrupt hyper-grace as an excuse to continuing sinning as if Paul in Romans 7 is referring to mature born again Christians..

We all think we know and understand how much God loves us, but until it really, really sinks in we don't realize that our previous understanding of God's love was somewhat superficial religiousity. Oh, we all believe John 3:16, but do we really, really comprehend God's love for mankind by the redemptive atonement of the Lamb of God to cover our sins.

Only when we get our minds renewed by the Word and the Spirit in us can we really comprehend the depth, and height and width of John 3:16 as well as understand the context of Johns letter (1 John) when it comes to no longer finding ourself in a vicious cycle of repetitive sin and guilt.

IMO possibly the most misunderstood chapter in the Bible is Romans 7 in which Paul is not referring to the life of a mature Christian, but rather his experience living under the law (OT). Yet many Christians mistakenly appropriate Romans 7 as an excuse to justify their sinful habits. The context of Romans 8 is Paul saying that as born again Christians with Christ abiding in us it is now possible to arrive at the place where we stop repeating our habitual sinful nature.

Therefore hyper-grace is not a freedom to keep on sinning. Yes, God will still love us just as much if we sin, but the real purpose of hyper-grace is for us to understand Gods hyper-love. A Love which in turn prompts us to really, really desire to cleanse and renew our minds. Then sin becomes more and more foreign to us as we grow more and more in our renewed Christ like nature with His Spirit abiding in us.

John 3:16 (Complete Jewish Bible)

16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but rather so that through him, the world might be saved."

Scottmcc1 · Apr 7, 2013

Titus 2:11-14

11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Grace allows us to follow Christ.

Benjamin Conway · Apr 9, 2013

Great post, WOFFED!

WOFFED · Apr 9, 2013

Benjamin Conway said:
Great post, WOFFED!

THANKS

REPHAIAHPEDAHEL · Apr 12, 2013

Thank you heavenly Father for your grace and thank you heavenly Father for guys like WOFFED who understand Grace!

Rom 5:17 AMP For if because of one man's trespass (lapse, offense) death reigned through that one, much more surely will those who receive [God's] overflowing grace (unmerited favor) and the free gift of righteousness [putting them into right standing with Himself] reign as kings in life

obelix · Apr 16, 2013

Praise God for His marvelous GRACE.

Jesus on the cross said "34 [a]But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.” And they cast lots, dividing up His garments among themselves." (Luke 23:34).

Did Jesus ask the Father to forgive only those people who put Him on the cross, those who are elite, or for the whole world?

I will need your help and input regarding on this matter cause this is new to me.

I am starting to believe that this is pertaining for all people when Jesus said "Father forgive them". Jesus died went and died on the cross not only for selected people but for all people in this world.

I am also starting to understand that God forgave us from our sin even before we asked for forgiveness. Someone might ask, we are all then received eternal life? No! Grace alone is not enough for someone to be born again and receive eternal life. Eph. 2:8 said Grace through faith, so it is grace and faith cause one to be born again.

Below are some verses why I believe God already forgave all people even before they come to Him, but it wasn't finalize until they come in FAITH.

2 Corinthians 5:19
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [a]He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Colossians 2:13-14
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
13 When you were dead [a]in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

1 John 4:10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Hebrews 8:8-12
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 For finding fault with them, He says,

“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
[a]When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From [c]the least to the greatest of them.
12 “For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

John 1:29
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
29 The next day he *saw Jesus coming to him and *said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Please to all my brothers here, correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit:
Did God really forgive all mankind from their sin and not counting their sin against Him anymore except one sin, they did not believe?

John 16:8-9
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;

REPHAIAHPEDAHEL · Apr 17, 2013

Obelix, forgiveness of sins is the mother of all blessings and very misunderstood! God already forgave everyone and all we have to do is accept this gift of forgiveness of sins! But many tell you that you have to confess your sins before God will forgive them and yet our past, present and future sins were all paid for and forgiven before we were even born. It should be obvious to many that God created time and lives outside time! God no longer counts anyone's sins against them!

dominion2013 · May 15, 2013

Why not believe and confess and boast about His grace that rules us and keeps us from sin as per Rom 5: 21 rather than anticipate that sin will occur and God will forgive?

ABlessedAnomaly · May 15, 2013

dominion2013 said:
Why not believe and confess and boast about His grace that rules us and keeps us from sin as per Rom 5: 21 rather than anticipate that sin will occur and God will forgive?

God has already forgiven us, knowing that sin will occur.

That's Grace.

now faith · May 18, 2013

ABlessedMan said:
God has already forgiven us, knowing that sin will occur.

That's Grace.

GRACE is unmerited favor.

If we confess our sins he is just to forgive us.

Otherwise it would be predestined,to sin and automatic restoration.

Sorry Bob,I have been running the gauntlet on Calvinism.

ABlessedAnomaly · May 18, 2013

Let me slightly rearrange your response so I can cover the "good stuff" last for emphasis .

now faith said:
Sorry Bob,I have been running the gauntlet on Calvinism

This is a very, very good gauntlet to run. Keep up the good work.

Now...

now faith said:
GRACE is unmerited favor.

Prove it scripturally.

*gasp*

now faith said:
If we confess our sins he is just to forgive us.

Otherwise it would be predestined,to sin and automatiac restoration.

Let's talk first about forgiveness. WHEN did/does God forgive us?

"Well, when we confess." After all, scripture says this:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But what is this about? Does this indicate that there is a moment that we confess that our sins are forgiven? That we are then cleansed of unrighteousness?

Two things:
(1) this makes our salvation (for you are not going to heaven [saved] if you are in sin) up to our works;
(2) what of tomorrow's sin? We must confess it again to be saved. Then next week's sin? More works to be saved.

Joseph Prince (one of the proponents of "unmerited favor") has a great teaching on this. Here is a past discussion of this on CF. The link to the audio doesn't work any longer -- I guess Price's people found it and had it removed. I think somewhere in that thread is a link to Andrew Wommack on the subject also, which covers the same answer.

Back to present discussion. Juxtapose 1 John 1:9 with 1 John 3:3 -- same author, same book (letter). How can this be?

Well Prince covers this telling us that 1 John 1:9 is actually in the believer's past and is targeted at the unbeliever. We were all unbelievers at one point, and we were in sin. We should never forget that we were, but we are not any longer.

God forgave us at the cross. He forgave ALL our sins: past, present and future. We need to RECEIVE this gift -- this GRACE.

Yes, it is unmerited. There is NOTHING that we did to deserve Christ dying on that cross. There is NOTHING that we did to make Jesus come down to earth as a man and do that. There is NOTHING that we do today to earn a chance to have a part in this gift.

All we need to "do" is receive. One has to understand that this "doing" is NOT a work, for it is not our effort that produced the salvation -- rather the salvation was OFFERED, it was freely placed on the table for us to take, and we simply have to accept it.

If we had to "do" something EVERY time we sin, then it becomes a work. Because WE then have to perform in a certain manner IN ORDER to receive the benefit; and then WE can lose it (according to the lost salvation belief) because of what WE DO; and then to regain salvation, WE have to perform again, and again, and again.

GRACE is a free gift. Grace means "gift" (it also means other things and is a clue to my prove it question).

When you say "otherwise it would be predestined." But this is not true. God gave us a gift of salvation by Grace, but did not predestine any given person to salvation. Salvation, although a freely given gift, must be received (in the same manner that healing needs to be received). Out confession occurs once for all; our continued repentance is for our relationship with God and for our blessing to keep us out of the curse. Continued repentance is not salvific.

You are right that this is not Calvinistic: it is not a predestined elect (with a predestined non-elect automatically lost). But we have to remember when and how forgiveness happens. It happened AT THE CROSS. It did not happen when you first repented. Think of it as a ticket: when Jesus died on the cross a ticket for you was placed on a table. It is yours. It belongs to you. You need it to get into heaven. So if you do not receive it you will not have it when needed; but it you receive it you will always have entrance. If you sin again, you do not lose or give up your ticket.

This is not predetermination. It is Grace, freely given to you AT THE CROSS -- long before you were born and first sinned. Not earned by you. Not a continuous work that must be performed over and over.

REPHAIAHPEDAHEL · May 18, 2013

Great post ABlessedMan, it's great to hear from people who understand grace.

now faith · May 19, 2013

ABlessedMan said:
Let me slightly rearrange your response so I can cover the "good stuff" last for emphasis .

This is a very, very good gauntlet to run. Keep up the good work.

Now...

Prove it scripturally.

*gasp*

Let's talk first about forgiveness. WHEN did/does God forgive us?

"Well, when we confess." After all, scripture says this:

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But what is this about? Does this indicate that there is a moment that we confess that our sins are forgiven? That we are then cleansed of unrighteousness?

Two things:
(1) this makes our salvation (for you are not going to heaven [saved] if you are in sin) up to our works;
(2) what of tomorrow's sin? We must confess it again to be saved. Then next week's sin? More works to be saved.

Joseph Prince (one of the proponents of "unmerited favor") has a great teaching on this. Here is a past discussion of this on CF. The link to the audio doesn't work any longer -- I guess Price's people found it and had it removed. I think somewhere in that thread is a link to Andrew Wommack on the subject also, which covers the same answer.

Back to present discussion. Juxtapose 1 John 1:9 with 1 John 3:3 -- same author, same book (letter). How can this be?

Well Prince covers this telling us that 1 John 1:9 is actually in the believer's past and is targeted at the unbeliever. We were all unbelievers at one point, and we were in sin. We should never forget that we were, but we are not any longer.

God forgave us at the cross. He forgave ALL our sins: past, present and future. We need to RECEIVE this gift -- this GRACE.

Yes, it is unmerited. There is NOTHING that we did to deserve Christ dying on that cross. There is NOTHING that we did to make Jesus come down to earth as a man and do that. There is NOTHING that we do today to earn a chance to have a part in this gift.

All we need to "do" is receive. One has to understand that this "doing" is NOT a work, for it is not our effort that produced the salvation -- rather the salvation was OFFERED, it was freely placed on the table for us to take, and we simply have to accept it.

If we had to "do" something EVERY time we sin, then it becomes a work. Because WE then have to perform in a certain manner IN ORDER to receive the benefit; and then WE can lose it (according to the lost salvation belief) because of what WE DO; and then to regain salvation, WE have to perform again, and again, and again.

GRACE is a free gift. Grace means "gift" (it also means other things and is a clue to my prove it question).

When you say "otherwise it would be predestined." But this is not true. God gave us a gift of salvation by Grace, but did not predestine any given person to salvation. Salvation, although a freely given gift, must be received (in the same manner that healing needs to be received). Out confession occurs once for all; our continued repentance is for our relationship with God and for our blessing to keep us out of the curse. Continued repentance is not salvific.

You are right that this is not Calvinistic: it is not a predestined elect (with a predestined non-elect automatically lost). But we have to remember when and how forgiveness happens. It happened AT THE CROSS. It did not happen when you first repented. Think of it as a ticket: when Jesus died on the cross a ticket for you was placed on a table. It is yours. It belongs to you. You need it to get into heaven. So if you do not receive it you will not have it when needed; but it you receive it you will always have entrance. If you sin again, you do not lose or give up your ticket.

This is not predetermination. It is Grace, freely given to you AT THE CROSS -- long before you were born and first sinned. Not earned by you. Not a continuous work that must be performed over and over.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of yourselves= unmerited

You can be graced by Gods presence in its self,but in this context it is salvation.

I completely agree on every thing you posted,Christ would not be crucified over again.

Hebrews 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

To quote Kenneth Hagin S.R. : you might as well pray twinkle twinkle little star,because he will not hear your prayer....

God only sees us through Christ not our sins,he made the way for us to come into his presence.

For myself I know by conviction of the Holy Spirit,when I have trespasses and I repent and never worry about it again.

Blessings Bob.

ABlessedAnomaly · May 19, 2013

now faith said:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of yourselves= unmerited

You can be graced by Gods presence in its self,but in this context it is salvation.

Excellent. You didn't finish: one of the meanings of "grace" is "favor." Thus we say "unmerited favor."

now faith said:
I completely agree on every thing you posted,Christ would not be crucified over again.

God only sees us through Christ not our sins,he made the way for us to come into his presence.[/quote]
Again: amen!

now faith said:
For myself I know by conviction of the Holy Spirit,when I have trespasses and I repent and never worry about it again.

Never have to worry about what again? Will you likely have a trespass tomorrow? If so what will you worry about (prior to any repenting)? Please be specific.

now faith · May 20, 2013

ABlessedMan said:
Excellent. You didn't finish: one of the meanings of "grace" is "favor." Thus we say "unmerited favor."

God only sees us through Christ not our sins,he made the way for us to come into his presence.

Again: amen!

Never have to worry about what again? Will you likely have a trespass tomorrow? If so what will you worry about (prior to any repenting)? Please be specific.[/QUOTE]

Never worry about my trespass again,it is as if it never happened.

Truthfully my heart is not filled with sin,nor temptations I do not sin every day.

I spend much of my time praising God as I work,I don't worry about sin.

When I sin it is something out of anger,we all have a problem area that we try to improve on.

Romans 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Bob you need a red marker,thanks Bro.

ABlessedAnomaly · May 20, 2013

now faith said:
Never worry about my trespass again,it is as if it never happened.

Ok, one last little "be careful here." Rephrase to say "never worry about my trespass again for salvation."

When Jesus died on the cross he paid for sin, all sin. Sin was nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:13b-14
He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

How many trespasses did He forgive? It says "all." And when did He do this? On the cross. More specifically as it concerns you: BEFORE you were ever born.

But there is a requirement, lest we fall into the error of universalism. Jesus' gift on the cross is AVAILABLE to all men ("But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" -- John 1:12).

And once we receive Him He washes us clean, forgives us of ALL trespass -- long before we were born, but effective when we received.

"Never worry about ... trespass again?" Sure you do. Each time you sin you must be concerned about it. No, it will not touch your salvation, for you are bought with a price. But sin damages our relationship with Father God -- it pushes us away, it turns us away. We must repent and turn back to Him. Grace does not give us a license to sin. Repentance repairs our relationship with Father God so that we may walk in the way that He has for us. This is not salvific, but rather affects us here, in this world especially in how we relate with God, how we have relationship with God.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand. 30 I and My Father are one.

If we accept Jesus we are given eternal life: when could we ever perish? never. Who can take us from Jesus' hand? Nobody. Who can snatch us from the Father's hand? No one is able...the Father is greater than all.

No one is able to snatch us out of our Father's hand (not even ourselves!).

now faith · May 21, 2013

ABlessedMan said:
Ok, one last little "be careful here." Rephrase to say "never worry about my trespass again for salvation."

When Jesus died on the cross he paid for sin, all sin. Sin was nailed to the cross.

Colossians 2:13b-14
He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

How many trespasses did He forgive? It says "all." And when did He do this? On the cross. More specifically as it concerns you: BEFORE you were ever born.

But there is a requirement, lest we fall into the error of universalism. Jesus' gift on the cross is AVAILABLE to all men ("But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name" -- John 1:12).

And once we receive Him He washes us clean, forgives us of ALL trespass -- long before we were born, but effective when we received.

"Never worry about ... trespass again?" Sure you do. Each time you sin you must be concerned about it. No, it will not touch your salvation, for you are bought with a price. But sin damages our relationship with Father God -- it pushes us away, it turns us away. We must repent and turn back to Him. Grace does not give us a license to sin. Repentance repairs our relationship with Father God so that we may walk in the way that He has for us. This is not salvific, but rather affects us here, in this world especially in how we relate with God, how we have relationship with God.

John 10:27-30
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Fathers hand. 30 I and My Father are one.

If we accept Jesus we are given eternal life: when could we ever perish? never. Who can take us from Jesus' hand? Nobody. Who can snatch us from the Father's hand? No one is able...the Father is greater than all.

No one is able to snatch us out of our Father's hand (not even ourselves!).

Rephrased never worry about the trespass I repented for.

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

What a glorious thing to be called,the sons of God.

It go's back to let us make man in our image.

Only God could bring us back into his presence,For God so loved,Bob,John,and any one else who would receive and know salvation.

It makes me wonder if Christians truly comprehend Gods love,or if such sacrifice and love is beyond comprehension.

God is love.

ABlessedAnomaly · May 21, 2013

now faith said:
It makes me wonder if Christians truly comprehend Gods love,or if such sacrifice and love is beyond comprehension.

The problem is people THINK they know what God's love is, but they only understand human love and don't even think about agape love. Yes, it is beyond our total comprehension.

now faith · May 21, 2013

ABlessedMan said:
The problem is people THINK they know what God's love is, but they only understand human love and don't even think about agape love. Yes, it is beyond our total comprehension.

A word came to me some while ago,it was I am the love for your children,I am the love of your wife,I am what you know as love.

For a moment I understood the meaning and was overwhelmed.

I still cannot get my head around it,yet him being a Spirit touches us on a higher level than our own minds.

I know as Paul said ( now we see through a glass darkly) one day we will be joined in all of Gods glory.

So much we do not know now,all we can do keep seeking until we meet face to face.

ABlessedAnomaly · May 22, 2013

now faith said:
A word came to me some while ago,it was I am the love for your children,I am the love of your wife,I am what you know as love.

For a moment I understood the meaning and was overwhelmed.

I still cannot get my head around it,yet him being a Spirit touches us on a higher level than our own minds.

I know as Paul said ( now we see through a glass darkly) one day we will be joined in all of Gods glory.

So much we do not know now,all we can do keep seeking until we meet face to face.

That's good, but do you know it is still inaccurate? Think about your love for your wife. Was there ever a moment, just a simple moment, when perhaps she did something you didn't like or care for and you wondered why, you perhaps got mad and even wondered for even a split second why you loved her in the first place? Of course you came to your senses, but....

Now think of any moment in your life -- actually, that specific moment in your life when you really messed up morally. What was the worst you ever did as far as going against what God would have you do?

And through that moment, He NEVER stopped loving you as much as He possibly could. He never even stumbled, never even questioned it, never even slowed down in His love for you. Not only didn't He stop loving you but it was in that moment that His love wrapped you and held you and caressed you such that you came out of that low moment and were able to then turn around and move back toward God. He never let go. He never quit hugging you. He never quit holding you. NOTHING could ever slow His love down even one atom's width. NOTHING.

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