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Husband and Wife "Co-Pastors"..?

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TheRickster

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I know that this is common and even encouraged in the charismatic movement... but I am having difficulty being a word man and justifying this doctrine...?

Just for the record I here is how i understand the word when it comes to women in ministry...

I believe that women can minister and operate in all of the temporary gifts, and that they can speak and preach and work every aspect of the ministry.

However... I believe that the word of God is very clear when it comes to church government... that women are not to be in authority over men. I know this is definately not popular and I will probably be hated on ;) but that is ok.. I luv you anyway :D

So basicly I believe from what I understand the word teaches... That church Government and church Ministry are two totally different things... I believe women can be called into church ministry.. but not church government.

I have never heard this taught anywhere... so if you have scripture... not conjecture or "experiance" to show me the error of my ways.. I would gladly change my heart on this...it would save me alot of grief in my church right now.

I have not voiced this understanding anywhere else before.

Luv ya more
Rick
 

Jim B

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From my experience, the husband-wife co-pastor thing has been the source of a lot of conflict in churches I have knowledge of. Some people just will not accept the idea and when a pastor’s wife assumes authority no one has given her, it can create problems and misunderstanding. My wife (yep, a pastor’s wife) is content to be the pastor’s wife … period!! She does not view her position as an entitlement nor the term “Pastor’s Wife” as an office. I am glad because, again from experience, it keeps feathers from being ruffled and she is happier, not having the responsibilities that come along with entitlements.

\o/
 
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Jim B

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Svt4Him said:
There are more sources of authority than just a title.
I don't get your drift especially as it relates to this topic.

'Splain yerself, please.

\o/

PS The pastor's wife here is cooking chicken fried steak. :yum: Gotta go. (Hope that's kosher, Charlesinflorida.)
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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The non-denomination I am part of won't ordain the husband and not the wife. The two are equil and they work together. She is in no way an authority over him but works equily beside him.
 
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lands21

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I am not totaly sure how I feel about this, but I do think the Bible is clear on women governing the church. This goes right back to Gensis. Though my Father who has a Masters in Christian education (8 years of nothing but studying), and spent 25 years in the ministry would disagree with me and says that God used many women for His work in the Bible, and that we need to take the Bible as a whole, not just a few versus.

Like I said, not totally sure where I stand on this.
 
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Jim B

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Quaffer said:
The non-denomination I am part of won't ordain the husband and not the wife. The two are equil and they work together. She is in no way an authority over him but works equily beside him.

Personally, Q., I think this is very unfair to the woman who does not feel the same calling as her husband. I know dozens of pastors' wives who forced their husband out of ministry because of the unnecessary pressures and demands put on her by insensitive people seeing her as a co-pastor rather than merely the wife of the man who pastors the church. Not only do I view the practice you mention as unbiblical but also potentially harmful to the wives of ministers.

\o/
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Jim B said:
Personally, Q., I think this is very unfair to the woman who does not feel the same calling as her husband. I know dozens of pastors' wives who forced their husband out of ministry because of the unnecessary pressures and demands put on her by insensitive people seeing her as a co-pastor rather than merely the wife of the man who pastors the church. Not only do I view the practice you mention as unbiblical but also potentially harmful to the wives of ministers.

\o/
Well, you can view it as you wish I guess, but I've seen no problem yet with it. If the wife is not willing then the man is not made Pastor. Simple.

We also, though, do not allow insensitive people to rule the church and put unnecessary pressures and demands on any of the Pastors. We have several set's of Pastor's and while there have been people try to pressure and demand they simply were not allowed to manipulate and sway the Pastors from doing what they know God has said. People who try and manipulate the authority in the church need to learn that what they are trying to do is sin. However, most Pastors are too afraid of hurting those egos and let them run all over them instead. Not good. No one can mature spiritually in that situation.

I've not seen the marriages of any of our Pastor's suffering yet. In all my years being in a church I've seen more marriages suffer because the man is gone all the time ministering to everyone else and his wife is left alone dealing with the kids, who by the way are rebellious. That is a poor example of marriage.

I've seen many a husband/wife work together in the prayer line and in counseling. They love each other and treat each other with respect and are great examples of God in a marriage. Of course He is the Head, but she is in no way a footstool.

I have no understanding where the modern day church got the idea that the man is called but the woman is not. Sad. . .really sad.
 
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Jim B

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Quaffer said:
I have no understanding where the modern day church got the idea that the man is called but the woman is not. Sad. . .really sad.
I got the idea from the Bible, Q.

Imagine that!

What if I said, I have no understanding where the modern day church got the idea that a woman has to have the same calling as her husband. Sad, really sad.

That would be kind of insulting, wouldn't it?

As much as I agree with you on most things, Q., we could not be farther apart on this one.

I can say confidently that there is no scripture – none, zero, zip, zilch,nada - to support your position. And furthermore, there is no NT precedent in the ministries and marriages of anyone in the NT. Peter had a wife, who often traveled with him but there is no hint that she in any way participated in his calling. She simple was his wife. The same is true of James and the other apostles (1 Cor. 9.5). The only exception to this would be Priscilla and Aquilla, but in this case it appears, especially since her name always precedes his, that the calling was hers as much than his, if not more so. Apparently Peter’s (and the other apostle’s for that matter) wife did not share his calling and did not participate in the ministry to which he alone was called (Matt.4.18-20).

My home church ordained me. In doing so, my wife stood with me at the ceremony, but she does not feel “ordained” and continues her occupation as a cad technician. I do not feel obligated to share in her vocation any more than she feels obligated to share mine. She is a member of the church like anyone else and serves only where her gifts make room for her. I am not called to be a cad draftsman and she is not called to be a pastor. I would consider it grossly unfair of my church to expect her to leave her calling (1 Cor. 7.20) to support mine as for her company to expect me leave mine to support hers.

You can take the “one flesh” application too far. For example, I’ll bet your wife doesn’t go to work with you (or visa versa) nor does your employer require that she work alongside you on your job. Why only require it of ministers if church members are exempt?

I have a degree in history and have Church History on a university level and, to my knowledge, no other generation in the history of the church has required this of the wives of pastors and no segment of the church requires it to this day, to my knowledge, except Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. It is relatively recent phenomenon without biblical basis or support.

Your church can do anything it pleases, of course, and I respect your autonomy whether I agree with you or not. What you do is absolutely none of my business, but the OP asked my opinion on “Husband-Wife Co-Pastors?” and I offered it.

\o/
 
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crystalpc

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The denomination I was saved in was known for women preachers, even one local church with a woman pastor. However, I have difficulty with sitting under a woman pastor personally. I know the charismatic movement has done a lot of what is called co-pastoring. Not all are called. Sorry to say between us christians alone, is the case of some who have had scandal in their ministry.

As I moved into more of the AG and word of faith movement I have seen this more than I ever did in the CoG. I personally have a lot of problems with this...as I said not all are called. I think that it started more as a monetary tax thing than an actual calling from God.
There are some great women teachers that I feel are called, Gloria Copeland, Joyce Meyers etc. However the little shy pastors wife who may be great in organizing and working within the church with a calling for a deaconess, to put her as co-pastor where she is to share verbally is not only unfair to her, but also to the church. It is moving her out of her natural calling and gifts and putting a strain on her emotionally and physically. I become uncomfortable listening to our pastors wife because she is uncomfortable in the role. Yet other ladies in the church who are called to teach..that is another matter I can listen to them all day.
As to governance. This is the way we did it in the CoG the women could vote on decisions such as pastor, building, etc. However, the men were the ones who discussed the practical things, pastor wages, cost of building, etc. It seemed to work very good for us.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Jim B said:
I got the idea from the Bible, Q.

Imagine that!

What if I said, I have no understanding where the modern day church got the idea that a woman has to have the same calling as her husband. Sad, really sad.

That would be kind of insulting, wouldn't it?

As much as I agree with you on most things, Q., we could not be farther apart on this one.

I can say confidently that there is no scripture – none, zero, zip, zilch,nada - to support your position. And furthermore, there is no NT precedent in the ministries and marriages of anyone in the NT. Peter had a wife, who often traveled with him but there is no hint that she in any way participated in his calling. She simple was his wife. The same is true of James and the other apostles (1 Cor. 9.5). The only exception to this would be Priscilla and Aquilla, but in this case it appears, especially since her name always precedes his, that the calling was hers as much than his, if not more so. Apparently Peter’s (and the other apostle’s for that matter) wife did not share his calling and did not participate in the ministry to which he alone was called (Matt.4.18-20).

My home church ordained me. In doing so, my wife stood with me at the ceremony, but she does not feel “ordained” and continues her occupation as a cad technician. I do not feel obligated to share in her vocation any more than she feels obligated to share mine. She is a member of the church like anyone else and serves only where her gifts make room for her. I am not called to be a cad draftsman and she is not called to be a pastor. I would consider it grossly unfair of my church to expect her to leave her calling (1 Cor. 7.20) to support mine as for her company to expect me leave mine to support hers.

You can take the “one flesh” application too far. For example, I’ll bet your wife doesn’t go to work with you (or visa versa) nor does your employer require that she work alongside you on your job. Why only require it of ministers if church members are exempt?

I have a degree in history and have Church History on a university level and, to my knowledge, no other generation in the history of the church has required this of the wives of pastors and no segment of the church requires it to this day, to my knowledge, except Pentecostal/Charismatic churches. It is relatively recent phenomenon without biblical basis or support.

Your church can do anything it pleases, of course, and I respect your autonomy whether I agree with you or not. What you do is absolutely none of my business, but the OP asked my opinion on “Husband-Wife Co-Pastors?” and I offered it.

\o/
Unfortionately, trying to explain things on these forums does not give the full view of how things really are. It's really not as bizarre as it may sound.

Nowhere did I say that one has to give up their jobs. . .I merely pointed out that they co-pastored. Neither did I say that it had to be done that way, I just pointed out that in my church and the ministry we are under that is how it's done. That does not mean she is doing the same duties but neither does it mean she just sits and watches as God uses him and not her. They work together. He treats her like gold and she responds like gold. That's pretty much how I see all of the set's of Pastor's that we have. To me they are a shining example of what "marriage" means. Again, not everyone has to do it the same way but it seems to work quite well in our group.

As God has led, these women have even preached, and done a very good job at it too. One of the sets of Pastor's he is a retired policeman and she is a school teacher. They both can teach, however, she is clearly the one with the gift of teaching. They have a Bible study at their home and she is the teacher. He teaches sometimes but mainly it is her. They lead together though. She is submissive to him as her husband and he treats her like gold and she responds to him as gold. They marriage counsil people together too.

The last AG I was in it was Husband and Wife Pastors. They worked together, yet had different things that each did. If you dissed her, you were dissing him. He preached mainly but also incouraged her in preaching. . .and she's good at it. He governed in the church politics (unfortionately, it was really the deacons who governed things), but they ministered together.

In the large Vineyard I attended, while he was the Pastor, his wife was in no way left behind while he ministered. With John and Margie, she could teach just as well as he did and while they did different things they worked together. The same was with Bob and Anna when they became the Pastor's.

In the church I attend, all the ministries where the person heading it is married, the spouse is part of it also. While it may not be spelled out for us in scripture, I think that Peter's wife may have had more input than we think. But if not, that does not mean that the wife can't be part of it if she and her husband desires.

I see no problem with how my church is doing things and the Bible. If anything I see a better heeding to the spouses treating each other with the respect that Biblically is commanded. No one is forced to do anything they don't want to do. There is incouragement to grow and mature in all ways for both. We do not allow a man or a wife to neglect their home to serve everyone else.

Again, I wish I could describe it better, you may agree with me more than you think if I could. It's not a hard fast rule either way in my opinion. I grew up with what you've described and seen total dissaray in a marriage. One of my best friends was married to asst Pastor (not at the church I attended) and they lost their first baby because he got mad and threw her up against the wall while she was pregnant. Then left to go "minister" to people at the church while she layed on the floor bleeding. The main pastor even counsiled him how to get out of the marriage and come out smelling like a rose with her looking like the louse.

It does not really matter to me either way. However God leads. I think the Bible gives us the guide line, yet does not forbid enclusion of the spouse in any ministry.
 
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Jim B

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Quaffer said:
Unfortionately, trying to explain things on these forums does not give the full view of how things really are. It's really not as bizarre as it may sound. ....
... It does not really matter to me either way. However God leads. I think the Bible gives us the guide line, yet does not forbid enclusion of the spouse in any ministry.
Q.,

My conscience has been bothering me - I may have come across a little more passionate than I really am about this subject and I apologize. However, from my point of view - with all due respect to your church and pastor - the practice of the husband-wife co-pastor thing looks strange to me. I was opposed to it when I was in the Assemblies of God and I am opposed to it now that I am Vineyard, even though it is commonly practiced in both denominations. Like I said, it is strictly as Pentecostal/Charismatic phenomenon that it has no precedent until c.1950.

My wife has no desire to share my ministry. She has her own and is the best hostess I could ever hope to have. She doesn’t do perform her duties in an official capacity; she does it because it is her gift from God and she loves doing it. She prefers not to be installed or recognized as a “co-pastor” and is happy to leave those responsibilities (and headaches) to me. Nor does our congregation see her in that capacity and, therefore, do not burden her with things that she does not need (or want) to know. Those who violate her space simply get the “You’ll have to talk to Jim” routine from her and she is free to do what she does best -pursue her calling and not mine.

God bless you, Q. Thanks for your views. And remember, this is just my opinion, but I really do believe I am on firm ground on this one.

\o/
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Jim B said:
Q.,

My conscience has been bothering me - I may have come across a little more passionate than I really am about this subject and I apologize. However, from my point of view - with all due respect to your church and pastor - the practice of the husband-wife co-pastor thing looks strange to me. I was opposed to it when I was in the Assemblies of God and I am opposed to it now that I am Vineyard, even though it is commonly practiced in both denominations. Like I said, it is strictly as Pentecostal/Charismatic phenomenon that it has no precedent until c.1950.

My wife has no desire to share my ministry. She has her own and is the best hostess I could ever hope to have. She doesn’t do perform her duties in an official capacity; she does it because it is her gift from God and she loves doing it. She prefers not to be installed or recognized as a “co-pastor” and is happy to leave those responsibilities (and headaches) to me. Nor does our congregation see her in that capacity and, therefore, do not burden her with things that she does not need (or want) to know. Those who violate her space simply get the “You’ll have to talk to Jim” routine from her and she is free to do what she does best -pursue her calling and not mine.

God bless you, Q. Thanks for your views. And remember, this is just my opinion, but I really do believe I am on firm ground on this one.

\o/

:) That's perfectly acceptable with me. I think we're both on firm ground.
 
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RevKidd

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In my denomination, when you go through the internship, you and your wife have to do everything that you do except for preach and write a paper. Our denomination feels that the wives need to feel the calling on both her life and his. We lose to many men, and women, who are not on equal grounds as to their calling in life.

I myself have asked my wife over and over again in regards to how she feels about our ministry together, and she firmly believes that we have a calling on both of our lives and so she is willing to do whatever it takes. But if she had doubts, I would seriously be doing some soul searching about what I feel.
 
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TheRickster

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Hey thanks alot everyone... I really want to find God's heart in all of this becuase I don't want to be out of order...

I have seen some work well together but it was obvious that the man was the leader, and no doubt in my heart that a women is called into ministry with her husband if for nothing else but the ministry of support for him...

because i have seen it not work well together and it was obvious that the woman was the leader...

Women in authority...
Women in ministry...

The more I study on this the more i can see that God has definately drawn a line...

but... I am learning... I will post more as I study this out..

Again... I am sorry if i seem insensitive about the womans feelings... it isnt that at all... I just know that if we dont do it God's way... we labor in vain... and we build our house on the sand...

I know I will find my answer in the Word...

Luv ya more,
Rick
 
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crystalpc

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wofyouthpastor said:
Women in authority...
Women in ministry...

Again... I am sorry if i seem insensitive about the womans feelings... it isnt that at all... I just know that if we dont do it God's way... we labor in vain... and we build our house on the sand...

I know I will find my answer in the Word...

Luv ya more,
Rick
Amen Rick I totally agree with you! Nothing prospers if it is outside of the Lord.
You will find it interesting that Peter's wife traveled with him, but Paul's did not! Paul says he was a member of the sanhedrin so he was once married. However, he is silent on what happened with the marriage. He did mention Peter's wife, and said he could have done so to.
1Co 9:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and [as] the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? 1Co 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
 
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flyfishing

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Jim B said:
I don't get your drift especially as it relates to this topic.

'Splain yerself, please.

\o/

PS The pastor's wife here is cooking chicken fried steak. :yum: Gotta go. (Hope that's kosher, Charlesinflorida.)

i think he is referring to authority in the annointing... ;)


To addres the original thought, what does the word say?? that a woman should not usurp authority??? How can one usurp if they dont have somewhat equal authority??
 
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flyfishing

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wofyouthpastor said:
Hey thanks alot everyone... I really want to find God's heart in all of this becuase I don't want to be out of order...

I have seen some work well together but it was obvious that the man was the leader, and no doubt in my heart that a women is called into ministry with her husband if for nothing else but the ministry of support for him...

because i have seen it not work well together and it was obvious that the woman was the leader...

Women in authority...
Women in ministry...

The more I study on this the more i can see that God has definately drawn a line...

but... I am learning... I will post more as I study this out..

Again... I am sorry if i seem insensitive about the womans feelings... it isnt that at all... I just know that if we dont do it God's way... we labor in vain... and we build our house on the sand...

I know I will find my answer in the Word...

Luv ya more,
Rick

The woman is not to usurp authority, this implys that she has somewhat equal authority but is admonished to not lord it over .. Its that simple... Take your ego out of the equation.. But as you observed a woman who is not submissive should not be given that honor. Titles really mean very little to the LORD, it is man who puts such validity on them.
 
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