Hurricane Katrina Discussion

[RileyKeys]

I'm going to dump most of the the hurricane discussion into this thread. Please do not open more threads on the subject. As the NCE Rules state:

There should be only one or two threads on any specific topic on the first page.

If you have news updates on the situation, post them to my "Official" Hurricane Update Thread.

If any of you have a suggestion, I will entertain the notion of opening 3 threads, one of which will be the "Official" Update thread. The other two will be separate sub-topics that you may discuss. Then, no more hurricane threads will be tolerated, especially political slants. Such discussion will be destined for the trash or Politics forum.

Let's guess. 200,000 people need to be evacuated? At the next football game at the Rose Bowl, they will "evacuate" half that many in a few hours. Two or three big football stadiums together will "evacuate" this many people after games on Saturdays. FEMA and others have apparently been looking at things from the wrong angle.
Look, there is a way to drive to the center of town (as we have been seeing busses do) and a way to drive back out. Temporary refugee camps could have been set up a few miles inland in twenty-four hours with the resources the U.S. has available. A constant flood of busses could have taken almost everyone to these by now. We have the resources. What we did not have was a simple plan. What is needed is a staging area OUT OF TOWN, not in town. Get the people out of town to temporary camps that could be set up basically while they are being bussed. Too many officials have apparently been saying, "we can't do this" or "we can't do that." So what have they done? Bussed a few thousand to the Astrodome. Does becoming a federal offical render one brainless? Look, people could stay on busses while thousands of tents were being set up. Just get these folks out of New Orleans right now.
Make no mistake, the blame will fall on President Bush. Why? Because he is President. Actually, it is the fault of the FEMA director and others, but Bush is the man at the top and will have to take responsibility. He is very angry and rightfully so, for he realizes what I have just said. Just last night I actuallly heard the FEMA director say that they had just found out yesterday about all the people gathered at the death-camp convention center we've been hearing about. My question to him is this: Have you been asking the right questions? Or has your grandiose plans kept you from asking the man on the street? Well, it is too late for many, but if you will ask the man on the street what he needs now, he will tell you still. GET US OUT OF HERE NOW.
New Orleans is not a fit place for a staging area. Take them all inland to instantly set-up staging areas with food and water dropped. Think about this. Two of our major stadiums in the US have ways of having enough food and water on game day to sustain this many people for a few hours. We have the resources to have dropped in food, water, tents, days ago for these people. We have the resources to have evacuated virtually all of these people by now. We will get it done. Just watch. But it is already too late for many. And it will be too late for many more unless we simply bus these people out and then worry about where to take them. They can stay in the busses in hundreds of Wal Mart parking lots for the time being. Quit thinking Astrodome. Think parking lots.

 

[jayem]

The most striking thing for me about the hurricane aftermath is how fragile an urban society is. Without electricity, fresh water delivery, waste disposal, and food sorces, life totally breaks down. I'm sure everyone has known this, but it's still frightening to witness it in our own country. I've always thought "survivalists" were crackpots, but now I think there may be a valid point there. At least that the best insurance for disaster is to be self sufficient for life's basic needs.

So I wonder if, instead of putting money away in 401Ks or IRAs, it might be smart to buy some property in an accessible, but non-urban area, build an energy efficient house, and invest in solar, or geo-thermal, or wind systems to provide as much of your own power as you can. Live off the grid. Have a garden and preserve your food. I admit, to have the kind of house with the conveniences I'd want would be really expensive. But what good is a retirement portfolio of stocks and bonds when there's no food or running water?

I wonder if many people are thinking the same thing, and if these events will stimulate interest in individual power, water, and food provision systems.

 

[simplicity]

I guess at this point the refugees aren't too picky about accommodations. They just want food and water. Helicopters and planes can easily drop off supplies. I have no idea why there is such a terrible delay.

 

[simplicity]

Yes, I have some property up north with enough renewable biomass (trees) to heat a house forever. And with the cost of fuel these days forever is gaining more monetary value all the time.

 

[gracefaith]

The mayor of New Orleans has been freaking out for three days now and it just dawned on me that a lot of the blame for the poor organization of the refugees is his. The situation was set up to be a disaster.

Why was there no police force already present at the Superdome or convention center when the evacuation started? Why was there no organization and check in system? Why was no provision for food and water made PRIOR to the opening of any these buildings to take in refugees? Why was no one appointed to orchestrate command center of any sort? Where did the city's leadership go?

Simply stated, the mayor told people to go to these places for protection but made no provision for there care or safety once they got there. Now he's swearing at the federal government, when it was his responsibility to keep the people safe and under control until help arrived.

 

[billwald]

Don't forget the guns and ammo.

 

[billwald]

I think it is intentional to accustom Americans to martial law and personal disarmement.

 

[linchen]

Don't forget the guns and ammo.

Yes... it was the first thing it came to my mind reading the
posts of this thread....

 

[MSBS]

The mayor of New Orleans has been freaking out for three days now and it just dawned on me that a lot of the blame for the poor organization of the refugees is his. The situation was set up to be a disaster.

Why was there no police force already present at the Superdome or convention center when the evacuation started? Why was there no organization and check in system? Why was no provision for food and water made PRIOR to the opening of any these buildings to take in refugees? Why was no one appointed to orchestrate command center of any sort? Where did the city's leadership go?

Simply stated, the mayor told people to go to these places for protection but made no provision for there care or safety once they got there. Now he's swearing at the federal government, when it was his responsibility to keep the people safe and under control until help arrived.

It's particularly pathetic when you take in to account that when people where evacuated to the Superdome 7 or 8 years ago (I forget the name of the hurricane that caused this), that even without a major hit, the situation deteriorated into chaos. Now a few years later, with the earlier lawlessness as an example, city government still didn't protect the people there.

The NO city government was overwhelmed by the disaster, sure, but a BIG part of the reason that they were unable to respond appears to be extremely poor planning on their part.

 

[ZACTAK]

a MAYOR can only work with the resources he has. You can see CLEARLY that police are running very thin, resources are running very thin. It was up to the federal government to be able to provide help and reinforcements to these people... the mayor didn't have all the power to protect every individual. He did his best, but there are some failures in the federal providing help... many rescuers don't want to even enter the ravaged areas.

 

[Billnew]

Actually,
Any large building can help.
But tents would do too. Anything to get the people out of the sun and
have someplace to eat and drink.
Tarps,tents, parking garages. These all can hold people for a short time.
Weather will not kill these people if they can get out of the sun.

We need to think large scale. This is not one small incident.
This is equal bigger then the sunomi in area, and would have effected more lives if the evacuation hadn't happened.

 

[BeautyForAshes]

The Superdome was open as a "shelter of last resort". It was also staffed with National Guardsmen (they searched everyone for weapons and such before letting them in). It was staffed and stocked with the initial expection that the Hurricane would come by and that people would be able to go back home soon afterward.

I'm sure no one expected the levee to give, flood the city with many feet of water, (you know the rest).............

 

[rahma]

Where are the police? The police are there, out gunned and out numbered. It's quite clear that the resources of this city are drowning, and that outside help is needed. What more can the mayor do? He ordered an evacution based on the situation everyone thought would happen, but clearly, the worst case scenario played out. I doubt he expected this if he ok-ed the superdome to be used a refugee center, that tourists and hotel staff could stay in their hotels and if the universities in New Orleans were expecting to open on September 1.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/katrina.impact/index.html

Overnight, police snipers were stationed on the roof of their precinct, trying to protect it from gunmen roaming through the city, CNN's Chris Lawrence reported.

One New Orleans police sergeant compared the situation to Somalia and said officers were outnumbered and outgunned by gangs in trucks.

"It's a war zone, and they're not treating it like one," he said, referring to the federal government.

The officer hitched a ride to Baton Rouge Friday morning, after working 60 hours straight in the flooded city. He has not decided whether he will return.

He broke down in tears when he described the deaths of his fellow officers, saying many had drowned doing their jobs. Other officers have turned in their badges as the situation continues to deteriorate.

In one incident, the sergeant said gunmen fired rifles and AK-47s at the helicopters flying overhead.

He said he saw bodies riddled with bullet holes, and the top of one man's head completely shot off.

Lt. Gen Steven Blum of the National Guard said that as many as 2,600 National Guard troops were expected to arrive in Louisiana Friday to join the nearly 2,000 who went in Thursday.

Our policemen are in a war zone, with no food, no sleep, little supplies. How exactly is the city infastructure suppose to deal with this catasrophe?

 

[Scribbler]

Truth is, we've been doing this for years. We haven't had such a hurricane-induced disaster for years. It's the same thing every year-people choose to sit out the hurricane, hoping for the best. Who wants to spend a couple days in a miserable shelter, anyways? I lived on the third floor of a brick building uptown, so I always chose the ride out the hurricanes-especially with the looters that actually stay behind to take advantage of these situations. The city provided buses and police to escort the poor and infirm to the shelters, but this one was bigger than expected. Like SanFrancisco, you never know how 'the big one' will affect you until 'the big one' hits.

 

[Billnew]

Let's guess. 200,000 people need to be evacuated? At the next football game at the Rose Bowl, they will "evacuate" half that many in a few hours. Two or three big football stadiums together will "evacuate" this many people after games on Saturdays. FEMA and others have apparently been looking at things from the wrong angle.
Look, there is a way to drive to the center of town (as we have been seeing busses do) and a way to drive back out. Temporary refugee camps could have been set up a few miles inland in twenty-four hours with the resources the U.S. has available. A constant flood of busses could have taken almost everyone to these by now. We have the resources. What we did not have was a simple plan. What is needed is a staging area OUT OF TOWN, not in town. Get the people out of town to temporary camps that could be set up basically while they are being bussed. Too many officials have apparently been saying, "we can't do this" or "we can't do that." So what have they done? Bussed a few thousand to the Astrodome. Does becoming a federal offical render one brainless? Look, people could stay on busses while thousands of tents were being set up. Just get these folks out of New Orleans right now.
Make no mistake, the blame will fall on President Bush. Why? Because he is President. Actually, it is the fault of the FEMA director and others, but Bush is the man at the top and will have to take responsibility. He is very angry and rightfully so, for he realizes what I have just said. Just last night I actuallly heard the FEMA director say that they had just found out yesterday about all the people gathered at the death-camp convention center we've been hearing about. My question to him is this: Have you been asking the right questions? Or has your grandiose plans kept you from asking the man on the street? Well, it is too late for many, but if you will ask the man on the street what he needs now, he will tell you still. GET US OUT OF HERE NOW.
New Orleans is not a fit place for a staging area. Take them all inland to instantly set-up staging areas with food and water dropped. Think about this. Two of our major stadiums in the US have ways of having enough food and water on game day to sustain this many people for a few hours. We have the resources to have dropped in food, water, tents, days ago for these people. We have the resources to have evacuated virtually all of these people by now. We will get it done. Just watch. But it is already too late for many. And it will be too late for many more unless we simply bus these people out and then worry about where to take them. They can stay in the busses in hundreds of Wal Mart parking lots for the time being. Quit thinking Astrodome. Think parking lots.

This is still thinking in 21st century. The area we are talking about is 19th century. No reliable roads, no electricity, majority of people in the dome are wounded, dehydrated, and hungry. They are desprerate, scared, and aren't listening well. When clearing a stadium, everyone knows generally where their car is, and go there after the game.
They stock up with food over the weeks prior to the game, on good roads.

The FEMA is thinking small, but can't use normal daily activities with disaster.
With stress peoples minds are slow to comprehend, you walk around in a fog, then add dehydration and hunger and these people are lucky to understand anything.

 

[RN4CHRIST]

People need to take into account the Economic status of this area. This is one of the poorest areas in the US. Yes, NO is a popular tourist spot but that does not change the fact that LA and MS are poor states. I live in MS and we were in a big financial crisis BEFORE this happened. MS Congress is constantly arguing about where to put funds because there are very few funds to go around. LA is the same. What would you pick Emergency preparedness or Medicaid? Welfare or Roads? Levies or Schools? Not and easy choise. Not alot of big industry in this area either to help improve the economy. Alot of jobless people and alot of illiterate people. Now that they are in the spotlight people want to point fingers. Where were they before Katrina? We will need alot of help to rebuild. We have suffered a big blow. But we are also a determined people who will fight back and recover. With God's help we will go on!!!

 

[Billnew]

Truth is, we've been doing this for years. We haven't had such a hurricane-induced disaster for years. It's the same thing every year-people choose to sit out the hurricane, hoping for the best. Who wants to spend a couple days in a miserable shelter, anyways? I lived on the third floor of a brick building uptown, so I always chose the ride out the hurricanes-especially with the looters that actually stay behind to take advantage of these situations. The city provided buses and police to escort the poor and infirm to the shelters, but this one was bigger than expected. Like SanFrancisco, you never know how 'the big one' will affect you until 'the big one' hits.

We've had small and limited hurricane disasters, this one is a broad and wide spread.
I think people have a hard time understanding that sometimes the goverment isn't prepared for "the worst case senerio".

We're not talking of people standing at the edge saying "ewww, I'm not going in there" We're talking about people wanting to sweep through and check on everyone but can't, not enough vehicles, not enough roads, we are talking major widespread destruction. Houses remains block the streets.

 

[Illuminatus]

Tourists trapped in New Orleans realize they're afterthought, band together.

http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/050902/w090242.html

 

[the Colonel]

I'm going to dump most of the the hurricane discussion into this thread. Please do not open more threads on the subject. As the NCE Rules state:

There should be only one or two threads on any specific topic on the first page.

If you have news updates on the situation, post them to my "Official" Hurricane Update Thread.

If any of you have a suggestion, I will entertain the notion of opening 3 threads, one of which will be the "Official" Update thread. The other two will be separate sub-topics that you may discuss. Then, no more hurricane threads will be tolerated, especially political slants. Such discussion will be destined for the trash or Politics forum.

 

[the Colonel]

Threads are being merged. Sorry for the chaos, but these hurricane threads are getting out of hand.