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Human Reasoning vs. Faith

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churchlady

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Human reasoning is informed by what is seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled (the five senses), and draws it's conclusions from such.

Faith is the product of the Word of God, illuminated by the Spirit of God to the human spirit, and draws it's conclusions from such.

Human reasoning prays for the sick, sees (one of the 5 senses) nothing happening, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to remain sick for that time.

Faith prays for the sick, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to partake of the promise "He heals all our diseases", whether or not healing appears immediately or not. The person of faith will make further inquiry of God to see what is blocking the person from receiving.

Two totally different conclusions based on two foundational belief systems.
 
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LittleRocketBoy

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The sense ruled man will assume that the will of God can be derived by the results of his prayers. If he prays for healing and does not recieve, he assumes it must not be the will of God. Is so doing he not only incorrectly assumes the will of God, but he also incorrectly determines the nature of God by the result of his unanswered prayers.... i.e. "God must be the sort of God who wants me to be sick.."
In doing this, the sense ruled man assumes his faith is complete and not lacking. He assumes himself infalliable in the area of faith and faithfulness. Rather than considering that his faith lacks or that his knowledge is incorrect, he assumes God has said no. So here the sense ruled man defines not only the will of God but the very nature of God by the results of his doubt filled prayers.
 
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churchlady

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The sense ruled man will assume that the will of God can be derived by the results of his prayers. If he prays for healing and does not recieve, he assumes it must not be the will of God.

Thus for the sense-ruled man:

immediate seen result of prayer = will of God

Faith-ruled man:

Word of God = will of God



In so doing he not only incorrectly assumes the will of God, but he also incorrectly determines the nature of God by the result of his unanswered prayers.... i.e. "God must be the sort of God who wants me to be sick.."

He not only incorrectly determines the nature of God, but the very nature of the spirit realm is falsely seen to be an unregulated, unsanctioned, willy-nilly, loosey-goosey nebulous kind of realm that's completely unknowable and past figuring out, thus assuming......................'You never know what God's gonna do.'


In doing this, the sense ruled man assumes his faith is complete and not lacking. He assumes himself infalliable in the area of faith and faithfulness. Rather than considering that his faith lacks or that his knowledge is incorrect, he assumes God has said no.

So he lives out his life in the outer court of the temple where the natural 5 senses rules.
 
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churchlady

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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, had intended for us to forgo their use. -Galileo Galilei

And you would be very right in that, Adammi.

God doesn't intend for us to forgo the use of our natural abilities of sense, reason, and intellect.

However, when the mind is renewed with the Word of God, the faculties of the soul and mind are furnished and equipped to be of service and in submission to, our spirit, as we are led of the Holy Spirit.

It seems that God never intended for the soul/mind to bear the burdens of life, and have to make it's decisions. When overloaded, it can break down.

But the spirit of man is made to be able to bare whatever comes our way and emerge victorious and stronger.
 
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churchlady

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Interesting. Is this where people get the idea that if you don't get healed, you don't have faith? I'm new at this, so I'm just asking. Please be gentle :)

The Word says that God gives to every man the measure of faith. But we learn as we grow in the Lord how to appropriate it to the situations of our lives.

I encourage people who pray for healing and don't SEE any change to not give up, but to inquire of God what may be blocking them from receiving. God loves to talk to his children. "Fear not little flock, it's God's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."
 
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Girly3302

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Human reasoning is informed by what is seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled (the five senses), and draws it's conclusions from such.

Faith is the product of the Word of God, illuminated by the Spirit of God to the human spirit, and draws it's conclusions from such.

Human reasoning prays for the sick, sees (one of the 5 senses) nothing happening, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to remain sick for that time.

Faith prays for the sick, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to partake of the promise "He heals all our diseases", whether or not healing appears immediately or not. The person of faith will make further inquiry of God to see what is blocking the person from receiving.

Two totally different conclusions based on two foundational belief systems.
But we use human reasoning to understand the bible. Should we have blind faith without the guidance of the bible?
 
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JAS4Yeshua

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Human reasoning is informed by what is seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled (the five senses), and draws it's conclusions from such.

Faith is the product of the Word of God, illuminated by the Spirit of God to the human spirit, and draws it's conclusions from such.

Human reasoning prays for the sick, sees (one of the 5 senses) nothing happening, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to remain sick for that time.

Faith prays for the sick, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to partake of the promise "He heals all our diseases", whether or not healing appears immediately or not. The person of faith will make further inquiry of God to see what is blocking the person from receiving.

Two totally different conclusions based on two foundational belief systems.
If that is the way all Word of Faith think about Faith vs. Human Reasoning, it is easy to see why some people are upset at the Word of Faith teachings. It is one of the things I completely disagree with as well.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen. When I pray for healing, I pray in Faith, believing that God will heal. If the healing doesn't happen at that time, then by Faith, I trust God to carry through the sickness at that time. It isn't "Human Reasoning" it is Faith in God and His Will, regardless of the circumstances. It doesn't mean we stop praying, in faith, it simply means that we move forward in faith, regardless of the circumstances, recognizing that the healing hasn't happened, and trusting, by Faith, in God's Will and God's perfect timing.
 
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ARBITER01

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Human reasoning is informed by what is seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled (the five senses), and draws it's conclusions from such.

Faith is the product of the Word of God, illuminated by the Spirit of God to the human spirit, and draws it's conclusions from such.

Human reasoning prays for the sick, sees (one of the 5 senses) nothing happening, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to remain sick for that time.

Faith prays for the sick, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to partake of the promise "He heals all our diseases", whether or not healing appears immediately or not. The person of faith will make further inquiry of God to see what is blocking the person from receiving.

Two totally different conclusions based on two foundational belief systems.

Faith is hearing the Word of GOD speak to our spirit from the throne. We live by the faith of the Son of GOD, not just by what we read in our bibles.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Interjection: Cool! :cool: Just figured out the "Multi-Quote" feature! :thumbsup:


Human reasoning is informed by what is seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled (the five senses), and draws it's conclusions from such.

Faith is the product of the Word of God, illuminated by the Spirit of God to the human spirit, and draws it's conclusions from such.


According to the Great Commission, it is the will of God for believers to preach the Gospel to all creation, yes?

Since that is the revealed Word of God, His Spirit would never lead contrarily, right?

Then why did the Spirit "forbid" or "not permit" the missionaries to go to certain places in Acts 16:6-7? If it happened in that regard, might it not also happen in regard to prayer for healing?

Human reasoning prays for the sick, sees (one of the 5 senses) nothing happening, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to remain sick for that time.

Faith prays for the sick, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to partake of the promise "He heals all our diseases",


Why do you believe this is a "promise"? Is it your view that all different literary genres in Scripture are to be treated exactly alike?

whether or not healing appears immediately or not. The person of faith will make further inquiry of God to see what is blocking the person from receiving.


The clear norm in the Gospels is that healings are immediate. The lone exception I know of is Luke 17:14-15, and even there it appears that the process took at most a few hours. I'm not aware of any place where Jesus or the disciples prayed for healing, got no response, and then sought God to see what was blocking "the person" from receiving.

In Matt. 17, the problem was "smallness" of faith -- on the part of the preachers! In Acts 8:7, there is no evidence Phillip tried to figure out what was "blocking" the healing of those who were not part of the "many."


Two totally different conclusions based on two foundational belief systems.

Or on two different hermeneutical approaches.


The sense ruled man will assume that the will of God can be derived by the results of his prayers. If he prays for healing and does not recieve, he assumes it must not be the will of God. Is so doing he not only incorrectly assumes the will of God, but he also incorrectly determines the nature of God by the result of his unanswered prayers.... i.e. "God must be the sort of God who wants me to be sick.."
In doing this, the sense ruled man assumes his faith is complete and not lacking. He assumes himself infalliable in the area of faith and faithfulness. Rather than considering that his faith lacks or that his knowledge is incorrect, he assumes God has said no. So here the sense ruled man defines not only the will of God but the very nature of God by the results of his doubt filled prayers.

What of the man who reaches similar conclusions based on his understanding of Scripture, not on the basis of experience?

Thus for the sense-ruled man:

immediate seen result of prayer = will of God

Faith-ruled man:

Word of God = will of God


What about those who read Mark 6:17 and Acts 8:7 and conclude from those, and not from "sense-ruled" experience, that it may be God's will to heal "many," but not necessarily "all"?


He not only incorrectly determines the nature of God, but the very nature of the spirit realm is falsely seen to be an unregulated, unsanctioned, willy-nilly, loosey-goosey nebulous kind of realm that's completely unknowable and past figuring out, thus assuming......................'You never know what God's gonna do.'


As opposed to the WOF understanding of the spirit-realm as a magical place whose mystical reality-altering energies are released randomly and "willy nilly" according to the words we speak, be they "positive" or "negative."


So he lives out his life in the outer court of the temple where the natural 5 senses rules.

But we use human reasoning to understand the bible. Should we have blind faith without the guidance of the bible?

I think may people, not just "Word-Faith" ones, would say that "human" reasoning, apart from the guidance of the Spirit, is insufficient for understanding Scripture.
 
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churchlady

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If the healing doesn't happen at that time, then by Faith, I trust God to carry through the sickness at that time. It isn't "Human Reasoning" it is Faith in God and His Will,

And that's exactly what I'm talking about. You have connected what your 5 senses (in this case the eyes), reported to you (no visable signs of healing), with God's will.

Therefore you are gauging or deciding God's will with your 5 senses.

We should determine God's will by what He has told us and shown us in the Bible, primarily the New Testament with Jesus showing us the heart of the Father,.... and not let our 5 senses, which are of this natural realm, override the Word.

It doesn't mean we stop praying, in faith, it simply means that we move forward in faith, regardless of the circumstances, recognizing that the healing hasn't happened, and trusting, by Faith, in God's Will and God's perfect timing.
I understand your sincerity in this but it simply won't work this way.

You are actually operating in hope which is future. Faith is always NOW.
 
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JAS4Yeshua

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That isn't what I'm saying at all. It isn't about my senses. It is about faith in God. Period.

You see, what you're trying to do, is tell me that I'm looking at the senses, when I'm telling you that I'm looking at God. I pray for healing, in faith. I trust God for healing, by faith. There are times, healing comes at that moment, but that doesn't happen all the time. When it doesn't happen at the moment, by faith, I trust God to carry me through, but that doesn't mean I stop praying or stop believing.

It is simply trusting in the promises of God, and resting in His care, regardless of the circumstances. I never have to worry when God is on the throne, because I have faith in His provision.
 
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churchlady

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You are actually operating in hope which is future. Faith is always NOW.

Please support this assertion.

Hope means to desire something that you have some reason to think could be obtained.......there's an element of expectation to it, but it's future because you don't yet possess it. Hope is a good thing. It drives us toward the desired object.

Faith, on the other hand, is evidence and substance (real stuff), to our spirit man. We have it, we own it, we know it, in and by our spirit. We bring it from the spirit realm to the manifestation in the natural realm by words.
 
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JimB

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Human reasoning is informed by what is seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled (the five senses), and draws it's conclusions from such.

Faith is the product of the Word of God, illuminated by the Spirit of God to the human spirit, and draws it's conclusions from such.

Human reasoning prays for the sick, sees (one of the 5 senses) nothing happening, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to remain sick for that time.

Faith prays for the sick, comes to the conclusion that God's will is for the person to partake of the promise "He heals all our diseases", whether or not healing appears immediately or not. The person of faith will make further inquiry of God to see what is blocking the person from receiving.

Two totally different conclusions based on two foundational belief systems.

I hope we do not diminish “human reasoning” altogether. God gave humans the ability to reason and, in fact, challenges us to do so (Isa. 1.18; 5.3-4; 43.26; Micah 6.2; Acts 17.2; 18.4, 19; 24.25; 1 Cor. 10.15; 1 Peter 3.15). IMO, what we call “common sense” is a gift from God. He does not want us to belittle it, or ignore it, but use it as check against false doctrine. IOW, the Word works and if it don’t work it ain’t the Word.

That is not to say that common sense, human reasoning, is infallible. The book of Job proves that in Job 13 where Job “reasoned” with God, based on his belief that that his own goodness should earn him better things from God. Only later, at the end of the book, when God finally spoke, did Job realize that his faulty reasoning was based on a faulty theology of God. What He learned is that God’s ways are higher than our ways and past finding out or, as Jesus said in the Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard. In that story, when the owner of the Vineyard spoke, He said some of the same things God spoke to Job, “13 But he answered one of them and said, “Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go your way. I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with my own things?” (Matt. 20.13-15).

So, if I believe that God always heals in answer to a believer’s prayer and I, a believer, pray and healing does not come—even if it does not come to the point that the person needing healing dies of their disease—then the fault does not lie with God, the fault lies with how I have reasoned my theology of God. If God promised it, it will happen. If it doesn’t happen, God did not promise it. I am duty bound to change my faulty theology, not to, in the face of facts to to the contrary, defend it or explain it away. Signs and wonders require signs and wonders and signs and wonders are visible verification that what we believe is true. If there are no signs following what I proclaim, the problem is with my theology/reasoning, not with God. And what I call “faith” may not be faith at all. Faith is trust in God, not in our doctrine of faith or our "foundational belief system."

\o/

God doesn’t exist for the sake of humanity. ~C.S. Lewis
 
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churchlady

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I hope we do not diminish “human reasoning” altogether.

Not at all! We just don't let it override the Word of God. If the two conflict, we choose the Word.



Faith is trust in God,


And more then that, it's evidence and substance. It's stuff. The spiritual realm is real. Faith is the raw material of what has been hoped for. When you have faith, you actually SEE what you have with the spiritual eyes. When I received faith from God to believe in Jesus and was born again, I immediately SAW the kingdom of God with my spiritual eyes. I no longer HOPED for it. I SAW it. I HAD it NOW. I owned it, it was mine to manifest in my life as I walked it out. One of the first things I did was speak WORDS.................to my best friend I called her on the phone and said............"I just got saved!"

Now did I have anything that people could see with the natural eyes? No. But as time went by, they begin to see change in me, the inward evidence and substance of spirtual stuff (life) that I already SAW.

To say faith is trust could mean that you trust that God exists, that He's good, that's He's ............on and on and on. It's part of faith, to be sure, but not all, it's nebulous.........it could mean many things to many people.
 
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NorrinRadd

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Hope means to desire something that you have some reason to think could be obtained.......there's an element of expectation to it, but it's future because you don't yet possess it. Hope is a good thing. It drives us toward the desired object.

Faith, on the other hand, is evidence and substance (real stuff), to our spirit man. We have it, we own it, we know it, in and by our spirit. We bring it from the spirit realm to the manifestation in the natural realm by words.

Aw, dagnab it, I was hoping you'd use the old standard, Heb. 11:1 "Now faith is..." followed by, "See there? It's not 'Eventually faith will be..." Expressed that way, it's a great set-up for a quick and easy "spike."

Still, your reply does contain an allusion to Heb. 11:1, so that's good. How do you account for the fact that so many times in Heb. 11, "faith" clearly applies to things that the "faith-er" knew would be future, not "now"? What do you do with the fact that some of them were honored as having faith, even though they never lived to receive what was promised? They had real promises from God. They had real faith, based on specific Words from God, and yet did not receive.
 
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churchlady

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Still, your reply does contain an allusion to Heb. 11:1, so that's good. How do you account for the fact that so many times in Heb. 11, "faith" clearly applies to things that the "faith-er" knew would be future, not "now"? What do you do with the fact that some of them were honored as having faith, even though they never lived to receive what was promised? They had real promises from God. They had real faith, based on specific Words from God, and yet did not receive.

I believe it would be good for you to go back and reread Heb. 11, and read it in the light and context of the whole book of Heb.

Vs. 1-3 defines faith. It is spiritual substance and evidence - real stuff - posessed now.

Then vs. 4-38 shows examples of many old testament saints acting upon what they already possessed inwardly.

This outward action or accomplishment gave them the testimony of their inward (unseen stuff) faith. In other words, what they did or suffered outwardly proved what they possessed inwardly.

Then vs. 39 starts with...."And all these..." - referring back to the saints mentioned in vs. 4-38, and picks back up on the theme and point of the whole book of Hebrews.

The saints of Hebrews are going through tough times of persecution. They are discouraged and some losing hope. The author of Hebrews (maybe Paul) is showing them what the old testament saints accomplished through their faith, and they only had the shadow or type of Christ. The Lamb that took away the sins of the world hadn't come yet.

These new testament saints that he was addressing, had Christ!! How much more, therefore, being inwardly perfected, should they be able to endure what was coming against them.
 
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