Human DNA 8% Viral

[Jjschmit33]

Has anyone else read about this?
I did notice after reading all of the forum that they do not find it in all life.

I cannot post links. The website is LiveScience dot com then look under the Forums. There is some argument about it disproving religion, but the thread is a religious bashing one which the website refuses to remove. Ignore that to get to the meat.

 

[Wedjat]

Link
(Without commentaries)
I think it's interesting, but not unexpected.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/01/100107103621.htm

 

[DaisyDay]

Has anyone else read about this?
I did notice after reading all of the forum that they do not find it in all life.

I cannot post links. The website is LiveScience dot com then look under the Forums.

LiveScience Forum link

There is some argument about it disproving religion, but the thread is a religious bashing one which the website refuses to remove. Ignore that to get to the meat.

What is the meat - the discussion of the viral DNA or someone's whining about discrimination?

 

[DaisyDay]

Link
(Without commentaries)
I think it's interesting, but not unexpected.

The amount, 8%, is surprising, isn't it? Seems like a lot.

 

[ArnautDaniel]

The amount, 8%, is surprising, isn't it? Seems like a lot.

Maybe not.

This sort of thing probably helps explain why some organisms (such as the amoeba) have huge genomes out of proportion to their likely relative complexity to other organisms.

 

[Cabal]

so if we're made in god's image

then god might be a virus.....

 

[SithDoughnut]

so if we're made in god's image

then god might be a virus.....

8% virus, at least.

 

[Naraoia]

The amount, 8%, is surprising, isn't it? Seems like a lot.

I thought it was more than that. I guess I was counting retrotransposons as viruses, because IIRC we have a LOT of those. Something like 40+ % of the human genome.

 

[Meshach]

so if we're made in god's image

then god might be a virus.....

Was this 8% found in DNA prior to the fall?

 

[Thekla]

Another info link on the topic:

8 percent of human genome derived from viruses could cause psychiatric disorders, scientists say - SmartPlanet

The 8 percent of human DNA that is derived from viruses may cause the cell mutation behind psychiatric disorders such as schizophrenia and mood disorders, according to scientists at Osaka University in Japan. Detailed in a recent article in the journal Nature by University of Texas at Arlington biology professor Cédric Feschotte, the study revealed that the genomes of mammals contain DNA derived from the insertion of bornaviruses, or RNA viruses whose replication takes place in the nucleus of cells.
Bornaviruses cause Borna disease, a neurological syndrome thought to play a role in some human neurological and psychiatric conditions such as bipolar disorder and depression. It infects only neurons and establishes a persistent infection in its host’s brain.

continued at above link

 

[RealityCheck]

Has anyone else read about this?
I did notice after reading all of the forum that they do not find it in all life.

I cannot post links. The website is LiveScience dot com then look under the Forums. There is some argument about it disproving religion, but the thread is a religious bashing one which the website refuses to remove. Ignore that to get to the meat.

It's not so much that it disproves religion, it is solid evidence of evolution and evidence against intelligent design and/or creationism.

There was a video posted by cdk007 on YouTube regarding retro-viruses in human chromosomes. Retro-viruses can attack a lot of different cells, depending on their type. Most won't get passed on, but a retro-virus that attacks a sperm cell WILL get passed on if that sperm happens to fertilize an egg.

He explains that there are several chromosomes that have the genetic remnants of retro-viruses in certain spots. And it turns out that if you examine the same chromosome in, say, a chimpanzee, you find the same retro-virus in the same spot. The odds against this happening by "random chance" are pretty high on its own... but it turns out that it isn't just one retro-virus, or two, but there are many. He points out about 16 altogether by the end, all retro-viruses that appear in the same places in human vs. chimp chromosomes. The odds of this happening purely by chance are astronomical... something on the order of, "you are dealt a royal flush three times in a row, win a world-wide lottery, randomly choose the same molecule of water out of the ocean as a friend does, then get hit by an airplane AND lightning precisely at 2:30 PM just before a meteor strikes the earth."

It's even worse than that, though, because the same retro-viruses appear in the chromosomes of all the apes - gorillas, orangutans, etc. And it's not just 16 - there's more, but his calculator won't calculate odds that large.

The theory of evolution accounts for this perfectly. Common descent of all apes, including humans, from an ancestor millions of years ago that caught a particular virus that got transmitted through a sperm cell... add on more common ancestors, each transmitting another retro-virus or several... and over time, we all end up carrying them, all in the same places.

But creationism/intelligent design cannot. ID doesn't account for much of anything, really, but this number of retro-viruses appearing in numerous related species it does not. Creationism has an even harder time because it openly declares "God did it." So creationists would have to either believe that a) God intentionally placed all this junk DNA in our chromosomes AND that of the apes, for no apparent reason or in order to make us all "appear related," or b) it's all a huge coincidence, it "just happened by random chance."

Creationists can't choose b - after all, that's exactly what they think evolution is, a lot of random chance - so they must choose a. How do they rationalize this? They can't... at best, they can ignore it and pretend it's not real, that it's just made-up evidence that scientists have concocted to support their godless atheism.

 

[Thekla]

Just curious - since Borna virus can also actively infect humans (if I understand correctly), why does its presence in the genome in also apes evidence anything other than common weak points ? (I'm clueless, so forgive me if this might require a bit of explanation; I'll understand if you'd rather not, as it might be a bit complex.) Has this not been discovered in other animal genomes ; ie is it confined to human and ape genomes ?

2: Mol Psychiatry. 2001 Jul;6(4):481-91.

Borna disease virus-specific circulating immune complexes, antigenemia, and free
antibodies--the key marker triplet determining infection and prevailing in
severe mood disorders.

Bode L, Reckwald P, Severus WE, Stoyloff R, Ferszt R, Dietrich DE, Ludwig H.

Project Bornavirus Infections, Robert Koch-Institut, Nordufer 20, 13353 Berlin,
Germany. bodel@rki.de

Borna disease virus (BDV), a unique genetically highly conserved RNA virus
(Bornaviridae; Mononegavirales), preferentially targets neurons of limbic
structures causing behavioral abnormalities in animals. Markers and virus in
patients with affective disorders and schizophrenia have raised worldwide
interest. A persistent infection was suggestive from follow-up studies, but
inconstant detectability weakened a possible linkage.This study for the first
time discloses that detection gaps are caused by BDV-specific circulating immune
complexes (CIC), and their interplay with free antibodies and plasma antigens
(p40/p24). Screening 3000 sera each from human and equine patients over the past
4 years by new enzyme immunoassays (EIAs) revealed that BDV-CICs indicate 10
times higher infection rates (up to 30% in controls, up to 100% in patients)
than did previous serology. Persistence of high amounts of CICs and plasma
antigens correlates with severity of depression. Even BDV RNA could be detected
in plasma samples with strong antigenemia. Our discovery not only explains the
course of persistent infection, but offers novel easy-to-use diagnostic tools by
which new insights into BDV-related etiopathogenesis of disease and epidemiology
are possible.

Publication Types:
Multicenter Study

PMID: 11443538 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Borna Virus and Psychiatric Disorders

more abstracts available at above link

 

[RealityCheck]

"Just curious - since Borna virus can also actively infect humans (if I understand correctly), why does its presence in the genome in also apes evidence anything other than common weak points ? (I'm clueless, so forgive me if this might require a bit of explanation; I'll understand if you'd rather not, as it might be a bit complex.) Has this not been discovered in other animal genomes ; ie is it confined to human and ape genomes ?"

Explained above. It's not simply that humans and apes are all susceptible to it. It's the presence of the virus's DNA in the genomes of humans and other apes. That can only happen if the virus has attacked cells carrying chromosomes - ie, sperm or eggs. Then, whatever material the virus rewrites or adds to the chromosomes will get passed on to the descendants and every other descendant thereafter. That we share the same viral remnants in our chromosomes, in the same locations, as that of other apes, demonstrates common descent very neatly.

 

[RealityCheck]

Think of the following (borrowing from cdk007 as stated before): suppose you and a friend each randomly choose a molecule of water from the world's oceans. What are the odds that you'll both randomly choose exactly the same molecule?

That is approximately the odds of about 12 of these viral remnants appearing in the same locations in the same chromosomes of both humans and the other apes, purely by random chance and without humans and apes having a common ancestor.

With a common ancestor, however, the odds are 100% - if a common ancestor caught this virus and it infected sperm or egg cells, it's 100% guaranteed that all descendants will carry that virus's code in the chromosomes in the exact same location.

 

[Thekla]

Thank-you, RealityCheck !

I did partially answer my own question, though I may not understand correctly:

But primates were not the only targets for borna viruses. Dr. Tomonaga and his colleagues have found independent invasions in other mammals, including ground squirrels, guinea pigs and elephants.

Borna Virus Discovered in Human Genome - NYTimes.com

Have ancient Borna Virus sequences been retained in the genome of the animals listed above ? If so, is the retained sequence in these animals different than that retained in apes and humans, or enter at a different historical period ?

 

[RealityCheck]

Thank-you, RealityCheck !

I did partially answer my own question, though I may not understand correctly:

Borna Virus Discovered in Human Genome - NYTimes.com

Have ancient Borna Virus sequences been retained in the genome of the animals listed above ? If so, is the retained sequence in these animals different than that retained in apes and humans, or enter at a different historical period ?

The sequence is the same or identical enough to identify it as the same virus. It would have to be, otherwise the sequences would appear to come from different viruses, not from the same one.

As for different periods... I don't think one could determine exactly "when" one of these sequences appeared in the genome of a common ancestor, except to say that it would have to have been the ancestor of all the modern species that carry that same sequence in the same place. You can examine common ancestry to find where, approximately, the infection would have taken place.

For it to take place at different times... that's pretty unlikely, as I outlined before. For that to happen, you'd have to have a) an infection occur in the genome of the common ancestor, b) transmittal to subsequent generations, but c) the sequence disappears from one strain of descendants, then d) reappears with another infection by the same virus in the same location that the original infection appeared.

I don't know what the odds of that sequence happening are. Probably similar to the odds of me winning the lottery on Mars.

 

[Thekla]

The sequence is the same or identical enough to identify it as the same virus. It would have to be, otherwise the sequences would appear to come from different viruses, not from the same one.

As for different periods... I don't think one could determine exactly "when" one of these sequences appeared in the genome of a common ancestor, except to say that it would have to have been the ancestor of all the modern species that carry that same sequence in the same place. You can examine common ancestry to find where, approximately, the infection would have taken place.

For it to take place at different times... that's pretty unlikely, as I outlined before. For that to happen, you'd have to have a) an infection occur in the genome of the common ancestor, b) transmittal to subsequent generations, but c) the sequence disappears from one strain of descendants, then d) reappears with another infection by the same virus in the same location that the original infection appeared.

I don't know what the odds of that sequence happening are. Probably similar to the odds of me winning the lottery on Mars.

I think I did not give my question well enough, so I'll try again.

If I understand the article aright, there are Borna virus sequences present in the genomes of animals other than primates. Are the genome sequences found in elephants, for example, different than the Borna sequences found in primates ? Or are the sequences found in different places in the genome in non-primate animals ?

 

[pgp_protector]

Maybe Mr Smith was right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hn6WZh17BF4

 

[RealityCheck]

I think I did not give my question well enough, so I'll try again.

If I understand the article aright, there are Borna virus sequences present in the genomes of animals other than primates. Are the genome sequences found in elephants, for example, different than the Borna sequences found in primates ? Or are the sequences found in different places in the genome in non-primate animals ?

Oh, very good question, and I don't know the answer.

But supposing that you found the same sequence from the Borna virus in very different branches of animals... say in humans/apes, rodents, and reptiles... that would be truly fascinating!

 

[Thekla]

Oh, very good question, and I don't know the answer.

But supposing that you found the same sequence from the Borna virus in very different branches of animals... say in humans/apes, rodents, and reptiles... that would be truly fascinating!

Yes, I think it would be

Thank-you so much for your explanations and help !