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Human Ancestral Frauds

Tomm

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Piltdown man: Found in a gravel pit in Sussex England in 1912, this fossil was considered by some sources to be the second most important fossil proving the evolution of man—until it was found to be a complete forgery 41 years later. The skull was found to be of modern age. The fragments had been chemically stained to give the appearance of age, and the teeth had been filed down!

Nebraska man: A single tooth, discovered in Nebraska in 1922 grew an entire evolutionary link between man and monkey, until another identical tooth was found which was protruding from the jawbone of a wild pig.

Java man: Initially discovered by Dutchman Eugene Dubois in 1891, all that was found of this claimed originator of humans was a skullcap, three teeth and a femur. The femur was found 50 feet away from the original skullcap a full year later. For almost 30 years Dubois downplayed the Wadjak skulls (two undoubtedly human skulls found very close to his "missing link"). (source: Hank Hanegraaff, The Face That Demonstrates The Farce Of Evolution, [Word Publishing, Nashville, 1998], pp.50-52)

Orce man: Found in the southern Spanish town of Orce in 1982, and hailed as the oldest fossilized human remains ever found in Europe. One year later officials admitted the skull fragment was not human but probably came from a 4 month old donkey. Scientists had said the skull belonged to a 17 year old man who lived 900,000 to 1.6 million years ago, and even had very detail drawings done to represent what he would have looked like. (source: "Skull fragment may not be human", Knoxville News-Sentinel, 1983)

Neanderthal: Still synonymous with brutishness, the first Neanderthal remains were found in France in 1908. Considered to be ignorant, ape-like, stooped and knuckle-dragging, much of the evidence now suggests that Neanderthal was just as human as us, and his stooped appearance was because of arthritis and rickets. Neanderthals are now recognized as skilled hunters, believers in an after-life, and even skilled surgeons, as seen in one skeleton whose withered right arm had been amputated above the elbow. (source: "Upgrading Neanderthal Man", Time Magazine, May 17, 1971, Vol. 97, No. 20)
(Source: Northwest Creation website)


Also - Haekel’s faked embryonic drawings

(not all of above were deliberate)

________________________________________________________________________________________________

Three critical flaws in the theory of evolution
(An extract from "Micro and Macro-Evolution Explained")

There are three critical flaws in the theory of evolution through gradual change: Dysfunctional change, the DNA code barrier, and natural selection removes DNA information but does not add new information.

1. Dysfunctional change or otherwise noted as irreducibly complex. When a trait is critical for the survival of the species, it must be fully functional or the species will die off and any ‘evolutionary progress’ would be lost. For example, a bat could not evolve from a rodent because it is completely dependent on its wings for survival. A half-evolved wing could not be used for walking because of its awkward length and shape and would not be functional for flying. The idea of a half-evolved bat is completely illogical. It would be easily tracked down by predators and it would be helpless to get food and survive on its own. This need for completeness can be clearly observed from the most primitive single celled animal to the most complex mammal. To contradict this idea would clearly contradict Darwin’s principle of natural selection. Many scientists are making a shift because gradual change produces dysfunction in-between species. The new emerging proposal is the quantum jump. Jay Gould proposed the idea that every living cell could possibly be encoded with the ability to change into any other living thing. He believes that an external stimulus causes this jump.
This is a bigger stretch than gradual evolution. Based on his idea, simple pond microbes would have the same DNA encoding as humans and science has proven that this is not the case. Primitive life forms have far less genetic material than more complex animals such as a mammal. Gould’s leap of faith also does not account for varieties of different species. If environment is the trigger and we all have the same DNA, the jump should be to the same creature. Plus we can plainly observe that this reaction does not occur today. Moving from a warm weather climate to a cold weather climate doesn’t trigger a different type of offspring.

2. The DNA code barrier. A fact of genetics is that trait changes have a ceiling. This perhaps is the biggest obstacle to gradual change through micro-evolution. Each rung of DNA is made up of four chemicals called nucleotides, designated by the symbols: A (adenine), G (guanine), C (cytosine), and T (thymine). These rungs of DNA are combined to provide a blueprint of the traits that organism will have. If you took all the DNA in the human body and put it in written format, it would fill up one million volumes the size of a 500 page encyclopedia. With all this genetic data, if two people could have as many children as there are atoms in the universe, no two children would be identical. Though there are a limitless combinations of traits that we possess, there is a limit to how far each trait can change. There is a limit to the number of combinations of these chemicals; therefore there are a limited number of trait variations. No new genetic material can be added. Trait changes result in re-arranging the genetic code that is already present. Mixing the available genetic code will produce variations in the trait but will not change into a completely different feature. For example, your parents genes are combined to produce your various traits. People have several different colors of hair, eyes, and skin, but without a mutation, these traits will remain within its boundaries. There are mutations that can occur and mutations almost always cause diseases or defects. However, even under mutation, skin will still be skin and eyes will still be eyes. Because of the code barrier, there are a limited number of variations in eye color. Different genes can create distinct variations but there is a limit. There can be rapid changes but inevitably, there is a return to the norm.
Charles Colson made mention of a few good examples of this principle. Darwin used breeding of the rock pigeon as a basis for his theory that gradual changes in species will evolve into new species. All pigeons are descendents of the rock pigeon. This pigeon is the same pigeon that can be found in most city parks. Through selective breeding, Darwin was able to produce many drastic variations of pigeons. He observed very rapid changes in traits that he could alter by this selective breeding and concluded that if he could make these changes within a few generations of pigeons, in time a new species of bird would develop. There are several flaws with this theory. 1. His intervention was the trigger for these various breeds. It did not occur naturally. 2. When left alone, his pigeons returned back to the ancestral rock pigeon within a few generations. If his theory were valid, they should have continued their ascent. 3. Darwin never lived to see that there was a natural barrier that slowed changes after a few generations and eventually reached a stopping point.
Change can be rapid when leaving the ‘norm’, but slows and eventually stops as the ‘ceiling’ is reached. There is a limit to the number of combinations a specific trait can have. Another good example of this comes from the book, ‘How Now Shall We Live’. 150 years ago, sugar cane farmers committed to increasing the sugar content in their sugar beets. At the time the project began, sugar content was at 6%. Through selective cross-pollination, within a few generations of beets the sugar content soared to 13%. Over the next 75 years these growers were able to inch the sugar content up to 17%. Now, 75 years after they were able to achieve the 17% barrier, the sugar beet remains at 17%. This is a clear example of the DNA code barrier that limits the variation of a specific trait. This example shows the same principle that Darwin unknowingly discovered. Rapid change, then slow change followed by no change.

(article by E Snipes , published in Exchanged Life Outreach website)
 
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Sanguis

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ARGH!

Lurk more!

Seriously, everything contained in the OP are PRATTS.

They've been covered, and picked apart over and over and over again.

We've heared it over over and over and over again, and it's no less ridiculous than it was the first time.

Seriously, enough with the creationist propaganda site copypasta. Note that both sources are from Christian sites. None of them are peer-reviewed science papers. They're quite literally propaganda, filled with falsehoods, twisted facts, straw men, twisted facts and outright lies.
 
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Split Rock

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Straight out of a Jack Chick comic....
Piltdown man: Found in a gravel pit in Sussex England in 1912, this fossil was considered by some sources to be the second most important fossil proving the evolution of man—until it was found to be a complete forgery 41 years later. The skull was found to be of modern age. The fragments had been chemically stained to give the appearance of age, and the teeth had been filed down!

The only real fraud in the list.... and how far back did you have to go back again? 1912?

Nebraska man: A single tooth, discovered in Nebraska in 1922 grew an entire evolutionary link between man and monkey, until another identical tooth was found which was protruding from the jawbone of a wild pig.

Tooth that was misidentified and quickly corrected. Nothing ever came of it.

Java man: Initially discovered by Dutchman Eugene Dubois in 1891, all that was found of this claimed originator of humans was a skullcap, three teeth and a femur. The femur was found 50 feet away from the original skullcap a full year later. For almost 30 years Dubois downplayed the Wadjak skulls (two undoubtedly human skulls found very close to his "missing link"). (source: Hank Hanegraaff, The Face That Demonstrates The Farce Of Evolution, [Word Publishing, Nashville, 1998], pp.50-52)

Nonsense. Java Man was a Homo erectus. We have many other fossils of the same species.

Orce man: Found in the southern Spanish town of Orce in 1982, and hailed as the oldest fossilized human remains ever found in Europe. One year later officials admitted the skull fragment was not human but probably came from a 4 month old donkey. Scientists had said the skull belonged to a 17 year old man who lived 900,000 to 1.6 million years ago, and even had very detail drawings done to represent what he would have looked like. (source: "Skull fragment may not be human", Knoxville News-Sentinel, 1983)

No one knows about this but creationists. No one uses it as evidence but creationists. So what?

Neanderthal: Still synonymous with brutishness, the first Neanderthal remains were found in France in 1908. Considered to be ignorant, ape-like, stooped and knuckle-dragging, much of the evidence now suggests that Neanderthal was just as human as us, and his stooped appearance was because of arthritis and rickets. Neanderthals are now recognized as skilled hunters, believers in an after-life, and even skilled surgeons, as seen in one skeleton whose withered right arm had been amputated above the elbow. (source: "Upgrading Neanderthal Man", Time Magazine, May 17, 1971, Vol. 97, No. 20)
(Source: Northwest Creation website)
Neanderthal is a cousin species of ours. We have many specimens and they don't have rickets or arthritis.

Any point to all this cut and paste?
 
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Wedjat

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Oh lawd.
Lets list the PRATT's shall we?

1) A bunch of hoaxes/misunderstood fossils that have little or no relevance to human evolution.
2) Irreducible complexity (like I haven't heard enough of this in the past few days to last me a lifetime)
3) And of course the "You can't add to DNA" line... classic.

In the words of Sanguis
ARGH!

Lurk more!
 
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Meshach

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Soon to be added to the list are Lucy, Ida and Ardi.

Approximately 95% off ALL known fossils are marine invertebrates, about 4.7% are algea and plants, about 0.2% are insects and other invertebrates, and only about 0.1% are vertebrates. Finally only the smallest imaginable fraction of vertebrate fossils consists of primates (humans, apes, monkeys, and lemurs)

It is not what is found that is the problem, it is what is done with what is found. Here are three examples. Keep in mind when most all people find and inspect these fossils they already have a presuppostion of what it is or what it is going to be.

1) Combine ape fossil bones with human fossil bones and declare the two to be one individual- a real "apeman".

2) Emphasize certain humanlike qualities of fossilized ape bones, and with imagination upgrade apes to be more humanlike.

3) Emphasize certain apelike qualities of fossilized human bones, and with imagination downgrade humans to be more apelike.

Hopefully one day the unique and created differences of us over apes will become more important and the focus of what really matters.
 
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Meshach

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Please provide a source for your numbers and stop acting like you could do thousands of paleontologists jobs better than they can.


Wow, if your not sure the numbers are correct then it just shows some jump on the band wagon a little easier than others.:wave:
 
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Cabal

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Wow, if your not sure the numbers are correct then it just shows some jump on the band wagon a little easier than others.:wave:

No, not in the slightest.

It means provide sources for what you are claiming, otherwise you're just making stuff up :wave:

False witness is a sin, last time I checked.
 
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Split Rock

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I assume you have examined these yourself, to come to such a conclusion? No? Just bearing false witness?

Approximately 95% off ALL known fossils are marine invertebrates, about 4.7% are algea and plants, about 0.2% are insects and other invertebrates, and only about 0.1% are vertebrates. Finally only the smallest imaginable fraction of vertebrate fossils consists of primates (humans, apes, monkeys, and lemurs)
How is this a problem for current evolutionary theory? How long have invertebrates been around? A lot longer than vertebrates. Given that, what does evolution predict? We will find more invertebrates than vertebrate fossils. Now, how does creationism explain this?

It is not what is found that is the problem, it is what is done with what is found. Here are three examples. Keep in mind when most all people find and inspect these fossils they already have a presuppostion of what it is or what it is going to be.
False assumption.

1) Combine ape fossil bones with human fossil bones and declare the two to be one individual- a real "apeman".
Is this an accusation? Are you referring to Piltdown Man? Because, if not, you are once again bearing false witness. :preach:

2) Emphasize certain humanlike qualities of fossilized ape bones, and with imagination upgrade apes to be more humanlike.
If they have humanlike qualities, then they are humanlike. You make no sense.

3) Emphasize certain apelike qualities of fossilized human bones, and with imagination downgrade humans to be more apelike.
If they are human, then they are not apelike (assuming you mean non-human apes) Again, you make no sense.

Hopefully one day the unique and created differences of us over apes will become more important and the focus of what really matters.
Let me guess what "really matters." Your religious dogma must be correct. :wave:
 
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Hespera

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ALL creationist presentations about human ancestry is fraudulent. All the "problems' they find with evolution are fraudulent.

We note that the theocreos call a mistake, like Neb. man, a fraud. The theocreos never make mistakes, tho, they do it all on purpose.

Weird how they dont care about bearing false witness.

Responsible peole understand the need for due diligence and that ignorance is no excuse.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Approximately 95% off ALL known fossils are marine invertebrates, about 4.7% are algea and plants, about 0.2% are insects and other invertebrates, and only about 0.1% are vertebrates.

I have no real issue with this breakdown (if one excludes coal as "fossilization" of plants and algae). Do you know why marine creatures are more likely to be preserved in the fossil record? Because fossils are easier to make when you can quickly bury and preserve the creature or it's hard parts.

Land animals have a tougher time of this.

So what does it say about paleontology, specifically? Actually we have found a lot of land animals. The alarmingly small numbers you give are percentages, not total numbers.

Again I love seeing creationists come on and talk about topics like this. May I ask how many times you've crawled for a day on your belly across a pile of shale looking for a fossil? How many hours have you spent looking at ancient plants and algae under a microscope in coal? Because many of us here have done these things. We've actually been out in nature and found fossils. One of my finds, a mesozoic sharks tooth, now has a nice place in my undergraduate university's collection. In Illinois. It was a local find.

Sharks. Illinois.

Do you have a specific critique of paleontology that you would like to document in detail?

It is not what is found that is the problem, it is what is done with what is found. Here are three examples. Keep in mind when most all people find and inspect these fossils they already have a presuppostion of what it is or what it is going to be.
Do they now? Interesting. When I found my shark's tooth I was actually just hoping to find a brachiopod, coral or bryophyte as most of my fellow paleo students were finding. Do you realize how many hours I spent driving to the Univ. of Illinois where I could find better paleo books to actually figure out specifically what it was I had found?

Again, what is your personal experience in this? I'd be really interested to know!

1) Combine ape fossil bones with human fossil bones and declare the two to be one individual- a real "apeman".
So you know this to be a common manner of paleoanthropologists. And you have "proof" of this contention?

Hopefully one day the unique and created differences of us over apes will become more important and the focus of what really matters.
Yes, hopefully one day Creationists will be able to deny their link to the rest of nature altogether! In their love of their Creator-God they will deny his creation at every turn! Denigrate it and attempt to free themselves of any involvement with it!

And that will make the Creator so happy that they have thumbed their nose at Him.

Selah!
 
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AV1611VET

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Yes, hopefully one day Creationists will be able to deny their link to the rest of nature altogether!
Yup --- in the New Heaven and the New Earth.
 
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thaumaturgy

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Yup --- in the New Heaven and the New Earth.

So the current earth is so nasty you're just waiting for God to give you something better?

Since it's the holiday season I hope that if you get something really nice for one of your nieces or nephews that they toss it aside and say "Huh, thanks uncle AV, but I think I'll just tell you how horrible this gift is until you get me something better."
 
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plindboe

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Soon to be added to the list are Lucy, Ida and Ardi.

Did you read post #3? Before adding more stuff to the list, wouldn't it be a good idea to check whether the original list contained actual frauds to begin with? Piltdown man is an undisputed fraud, but the others are all disputed. Do you not care about presenting honest info at all?


Again I love seeing creationists come on and talk about topics like this. May I ask how many times you've crawled for a day on your belly across a pile of shale looking for a fossil? How many hours have you spent looking at ancient plants and algae under a microscope in coal? Because many of us here have done these things. We've actually been out in nature and found fossils. One of my finds, a mesozoic sharks tooth, now has a nice place in my undergraduate university's collection. In Illinois. It was a local find.

Cool, thaum. Btw, do you have any advice for an noob amateur paleontologist? I'd love to find some fossils of my own, a fossilized ammonite for instance, but I've no idea where to go and look for them. I recently saw a documentary with Dawkins taking a school class to a beach to do some fossil hunting, and one kid made an impressive find. I felt rather inspired after that.

Peter :)
 
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Hespera

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Did you read post #3? Before adding more stuff to the list, wouldn't it be a good idea to check whether the original list contained actual frauds to begin with? Piltdown man is an undisputed fraud, but the others are all disputed. Do you not care about presenting honest info at all?




Cool, thaum. Btw, do you have any advice for an noob amateur paleontologist? I'd love to find some fossils of my own, a fossilized ammonite for instance, but I've no idea where to go and look for them. I recently saw a documentary with Dawkins taking a school class to a beach to do some fossil hunting, and one kid made an impressive find. I felt rather inspired after that.

Peter :)


I think any state will have handbooks for rock and gem collectors, as well as geological maps, shows where you might find some Cretaceous outcroppings where there might be ammonites. Have fun! I've mostly looked for fossils in Miocene badlands but I've found things of other ages too... mostly leaverites.

My boyfriend as kind of a neat micro museum of tiny fossils that came up in the currings from oil wells.
 
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Tomm

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Wow, provide a source and maybe I'll consider your argument.

Dear Meshach, forget about it. It'll be a waste of time. They won't change their minds,
they don't believe not because of lack of evidences, but something else.

Even if a thousand Lourdes Water Healings occur, or a thousand Fatima Apparitions take place, or a thousand Miracle of the Sun* happen, won't change their minds.

It's their choice and doesn't bother other people.

* Happened in Fatima, 1917.
 
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AV1611VET

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Dear Meshach, forget about it. It'll be a waste of time. They won't change their minds,
they don't believe not because of lack of evidences, but something else.
These guys like to say that if Jesus would show up and perform a few miracles for them, they would certainly become a believer.

But when you press them, they'll admit that Jesus would have to accompany them back to a laboratory and allow Himself to be submitted to a rigorous series of testing before they will even consider accepting Him.

One guy said he wouldn't believe in angels unless he could dissect one.
 
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Cabal

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Dear Meshach, forget about it. It'll be a waste of time. They won't change their minds,
they don't believe not because of lack of evidences, but something else.

Even if a thousand Lourdes Water Healings occur, or a thousand Fatima Apparitions take place, or a thousand Miracle of the Sun* happen, won't change their minds.

It's their choice and doesn't bother other people.

* Happened in Fatima, 1917.

Regardless of the response of your audience, making an unsupported claim is bad practice.

This is nothing but a cop-out.

Evolutionists don't usually expect their opponents to change their minds either, but that doesn't stop them from backing their arguments up.

So, yeah. Put up, or....
 
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