How?

wblastyn · Sep 17, 2003

mattes said:
Well that logic comes from the Bible in (Genesis 1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.) (Genesis 1:26 - Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness...)

I wasnt going to bust out any Hebrew on you guys but Vance did so...

The word image used in Genesis 1:27 comes from the Hebrew word tselem. It means "representing the original in an imprecise manner". The word likeness comes from the Hebrew word dhemuth. It means "pattern". Therefore, man is an imprecise representation of the original pattern. That pattern is God.

Yes, so we represent God but we don't look like Him (being a spirit and all).

Vance · Sep 17, 2003

Hold on a second, I want to get this straight:

Mattes, are you proposing that God is humanoid in appearance?

Do you think he has a physical body?

lucaspa · Sep 17, 2003

mattes said:
Sorry I havent replied in awhile I was at college worship. Ok, another thing I dont understand how you can belive in the Bible and Evolution for another reason: Genesis 2:7 - the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. Ok read that where do you get God created a single cell life form and it slowly evolved into what is man? The bible gives a clear picture of the creation.

Mattes, Genesis 1:26-27 says that God spoke men and women (plural) into existence together. No forming from dust.

The way that most Christians (and Biblical literalists like you are a minority) accept evolution (and the rest of science) as how God created is that we read Genesis 1-3 as it was intended to be read, not as we want to read it. IOW, we recognize that there are two contradictory creations stories in Genesis 1-3 and neither was intended to be literal history. Instead, both were intended to 1) convey truths about God and the relationship of humans to God and 2) server and reassure the worshipping community.

For instance, the 6 days of creation in Genesis 1 are there not to indicate that God really created in 6 days, but to provide a justification for one of the most important aspects of the Hebrew community: the Sabbath. God commanded the Sabbath in Exodus (happened before Genesis 1 was written). That should have been enough justification for observing, but the human author(s) of Genesis 1 wanted more justification. Therefore they set their message about creation into 6 days with God resting on the 7th so it would be just like humans working 6 days and resting on the 7th as God had commanded in Exodus. It served a theological purpose in reassuring the Jews to keep the Sabbath at a time in their history when they were under a lot of pressure to abandon Judaism.

Also, look at that 6 days. After being told that God took 6 days to create the heavens and the earth, Genesis 2:4b turns around and tells us that God created the heavens and the earth within (beyom in Hebrew) a single day! Now, either God has Alzheimer's and forgot what He just told us, or we have two separate creation stories here. I don't accept that God has Alzheimer's, so there are two separate creation stories. That means neither is literal.

Also, you stated that God has hands, feet, etc. because Genesis 1 says we are created "in His image". Have you forgotten that God is a burning bush, not a person with hands, feet, etc?

"in His image" is a phrase that had a specific political meaning in those days. It is actually a phrase that indicates a liberation and separation from God. An independent and respected status for people that was not present in the surrounding religions of the time.

You seem upset that we are descended from ape-like ancestors. I realize that science in recent years has diminished the self-importance of humans. Not only is earth not the center of the solar system, but earth is a minor planet of a minor star out in the boondocks of a very average galaxy among millions of galaxies. Not very special at all. And now evolution tells you that humans are not specially created by God but are related to all the other animals on the planet. Another demotion.

What this does is to emphasize that, if we are special, it is not due to anything within us or about us, but we are special only because God chooses to regard us as special. But that fits in with the rest of the Bible. What were the Hebrews that God should choose them for His people? NOTHING! They were slaves, the lowest of the low. Yet God chose them for His people, freed them from slavery, defeated their enemy, and was leading them to a land of their own. How did they repay Him? By disobeying Him by making a golden idol!

So, we are not special because God personally formed the first man from dust, but because, of all the creatures that have evolved, God chose us to communicate with and intervene in our history. Humbling, isn't it?

Vance · Sep 17, 2003

Yom = an period of time

beyom = within a period of time

six yoms still make up one big yom, within which the six can exist

minutes are included within hours, hours within days, etc.

lucaspa · Sep 17, 2003

mattes said:
The word image used in Genesis 1:27 comes from the Hebrew word tselem. It means "representing the original in an imprecise manner". The word likeness comes from the Hebrew word dhemuth. It means "pattern". Therefore, man is an imprecise representation of the original pattern. That pattern is God.

Whoever taught you this gave you the basics of Hebrew. What they didn't tell you was how the phrase was used at the time. I was taught that the phrase "in the image" was used for a representative of a king or rich merchant who had the power to sign binding treaties or business deals. In those days of slow and difficult travel, you had to have people who "represented the original". Thus, the ambassador used the phrase "in the image" of the king. But the ambassador was not merely a flunky. He had the authority to negotiate a treaty and, when it was signed by the ambassador, it was as though the king had signed it. So, to be "in his image" was to have some of the power and respect of the orginal. Not all of it, thus the "imprecise manner", but some of it.

Rather than a description of physical appearance, it is a sign of trust, respect, and authority. After all, don't we have the authority to do with the earth and other species as we will, and God respects and honors those actions -- good or ill?

mattes · Sep 17, 2003

Vance said:
Hold on a second, I want to get this straight:

Mattes, are you proposing that God is humanoid in appearance?

Do you think he has a physical body?

Yes, God's appearance is "humaniod", this is a recurring thing in the bible:
(Isaiah 64:8 - Yet, O Lord, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.)
(Exodus 8:19 - The magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God.")
(Genesis 3:8 - sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden)
... alot more

Later when Christ came to earth he took a Physical Body, that body was ascended so yes God now has a physical body.
(John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God / John 1:14 - The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us..)

lucaspa said:
The way that most Christians (and Biblical literalists like you are a minority)

I belive everything in the Bible is true and happend. Yes, of course Bible uses imagery (like in Daniel when he is descibing the beast which are the nations) to describe things, but God gives me somthing called discernment and common sence to know when this is being used. I also dont like the belittling tone you use im not an idiot! It doesnt matter if I am a minority just because the majority belives a certian way doesnt mean its right. You think Germany was right for killing jews because the majority of them belivied its ok? Another thing I dont really belive I am a Biblical Literalist just because I belive in Creation.

lucaspa said:
"in the image" was used for a representative of a king or rich merchant who had the power to sign binding treaties or business deals. In those days of slow and difficult travel, you had to have people who "represented the original".

Yes, I know this that was the word image but the word likness means pattern.

Alright new topic: To belive in evolution you have to belive in Natural Selection. That means organisms have to die. But the Bible says (Romans 5:12 - Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin..) Death didn't enter the world until Adam sinned. So how could Natural Selection occur?

Vance · Sep 17, 2003

But there was death before Adam. What I think (and the majority of Christians think) Paul is talking about is spiritual death - a loss of communion with God.

When God told Adam that in the day that he ate the fruit, he would surely die, did he mean a physical death or a spiritual death? When he ate the fruit, he did not die physically on that day (he did not die until he was an old man, at his appointed hour), so it must mean something else. What he lost on that very day was the full communion with God that is only regained through the redemptive power of God's gift of salvation.

When you accept this gift, are you then free of physical death? No, you are free of the ultimate and permanent loss of communion with God.

And, no, I don't think you are an idiot. But it is very rude to come in here and present your position as if it is clear and obvious and beyond debate.

On the point of the majority opinion, I agree that it does not make it correct at all. But your attitude is that your positions are accepted "truths" by Christianity and that we are all just silly for even questioning this dogma. My point was that the YEC position is not at all so obvious that most Christians believe in it.

mattes · Sep 17, 2003

Vance said:
it is very rude to come in here and present your position as if it is clear and obvious and beyond debate.

Im not, if anything im starting debate. As iron sharpens iron so does one man sharpen another. Thats the reason I debate. I respect you and im sorry if I have done anything to upset you. Even thoe we have a different belife about the beggining we all share the common ground That there is a God. So let us not get angered with each other.

Alessandro · Sep 17, 2003

One has two options to consider, either God is the Creator or not.

If the option selected is God is the creator then one must take the Bible as the base of this and all it holds.

Vance · Sep 17, 2003

I don't mind the debate at all, that is why I am here. But the attitude of "how can you guys believe this atheistic nonsense!" which pervades so many YEC posts (including some of yours) I find not very conducive to the discussion. I also think conclusory statements like "well the Bible clearly states . . .", etc, without any supporting argument (as if this was an accepted point by all) and statements which challenge whether a person is truly a Christian are both inappropriate.

Yes, it is true that even us Old Earth Creationists, and those TE's on the board can also get rude and arrogant at times, we are human. But look at the trend of the posts and see which group is attempting to engage in serious discussion and which tends to shoot back conclusory one-liners with little or no support.

Late_Cretaceous · Sep 17, 2003

Matts, do you believe that;

* the sky is solid?
* the earth is immobile and sits on pillars?
* that grasshoppers have 4 legs?
* that rabbits chew their cud?
* that somebody should be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath?
*that the Sabbath is on Saturday (not Sunday)?
* that thunder is the sound of God's anger?
* that epilepsy is really demons?
* that being a vegetarian is bad?

Because if you don't, then how can you say beleive the bible.

mattes · Sep 17, 2003

Late_Cretaceous said:
Matts, do you believe that;

* the sky is solid?
* the earth is immobile and sits on pillars?
* that grasshoppers have 4 legs?
* that rabbits chew their cud?
* that somebody should be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath?
*that the Sabbath is on Saturday (not Sunday)?
* that thunder is the sound of God's anger?
* that epilepsy is really demons?
* that being a vegetarian is bad?

Because if you don't, then how can you say beleive the bible.

? lol.. What verses please.

wblastyn · Sep 17, 2003

Late_Cretaceous said:
Matts, do you believe that;

* the sky is solid?

(Job 37:18 NRSV) Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a molten mirror?

(Prov 8:28 NRSV) when he made firm the skies above, ...

* the earth is immobile and sits on pillars?

(Psa 93:1 NRSV) ... He has established the world; it shall never be moved;

(1 Sam 2:8 NRSV) For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and on them he has set the world.

(Isa 24:18 NRSV) or the windows of heaven are opened, and the foundations of the earth tremble.

* that grasshoppers have 4 legs?

"All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you. There are, however, some winged creatures that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. But all other winged creatures that have four legs you are to detest." Leviticus 11:20-23 NIV

* that rabbits chew their cud?

Leviticus 11:36:

Whatever divides the hoof, and is cloven-footed, chewing the cud, among the animals, that you shall eat.
Only, you shall not eat these of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: the camel, for he chews the cud but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.
And the rock badger, because he chews the cud, but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.
And the hare, because he chews the cud but does not divide the hoof; he is unclean to you.

Sorry about the colours, etc I copied and pasted the verses from various places.

Vance · Sep 17, 2003

You forgot the "firmament" in Genesis one to describe the solid sky.

mattes · Sep 17, 2003

Late_Cretaceous said:
Matts, do you believe that;

* the sky is solid?
* the earth is immobile and sits on pillars?
* that grasshoppers have 4 legs?
* that rabbits chew their cud?
* that somebody should be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath?
*that the Sabbath is on Saturday (not Sunday)?
* that thunder is the sound of God's anger?
* that epilepsy is really demons?
* that being a vegetarian is bad?

Because if you don't, then how can you say beleive the bible.

* the sky is solid? (Lamentations 4:19 - Our pursuers were swifter than eagles in the sky.) How can somthing move throught solid objects the bible somtimes uses a thing called imagry.

*the earth is immobile and sits on pillars? (Job 26:7 - ..he suspends the earth over nothing.)

*that grasshoppers have 4 legs? (Leviticus 11:20 -All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be detestable to you.) Grashopper crawls with four legs and hops with 2.

*that rabbits chew their cud? The Hebrew phrase for chew the cud simply means raising up what has been swallowed. Coneys and rabbits go through such similar motions to ruminants that Linnaeus, the father of modern classification (and a creationist), at first classified them as ruminants. Also, rabbits and hares practise refection, which is essentially the same principle as rumination, and does indeed raise up what has been swallowed. The food goes right through the rabbit and is passed out as a special type of dropping. These are re-eaten, and can now nourish the rabbit as they have already been partly digested.
It is not an error of Scripture that chewing the cud now has a more restrictive meaning than it did in Moses day. Indeed, rabbits and hares do chew the cud in an even more specific sense. Once again, the Bible is right and the sceptics are wrong.
got this from here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/3725.asp that link has more indeepth information

*that the Sabbath is on Saturday (not Sunday)? I've heard it both ways but this doesnt matter we are under a new covenant.

* that somebody should be stoned to death for working on the Sabbath? Yes if you break the law its Sin and sin is punishable by death. But we are under a new covenant so this no longer applies to Christians.

* that thunder is the sound of God's anger? Somtimes it does but not always.

* that epilepsy is really demons? Well I can say it didnt come from God.

* that being a vegetarian is bad? (Daniel 1:11-15 - Daniel then said to the guard whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah, "Please test your servants for ten days: Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see." So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days. At the end of the ten days they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead. To these four young men God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning. And Daniel could understand visions and dreams of all kinds)

NRSV - (New Revised Standard Version of the Bible) It doesn't seem to be a good translation of the Bible

wblastyn · Sep 17, 2003

How can the verses I posted and the ones you posted both be true when they contradict each other when taken literally?

mattes · Sep 17, 2003

wblastyn said:
How can the verses I posted and the ones you posted both be true when they contradict each other when taken literally?

The Bible uses imagry to get its point across or to paint a vivid picture of its subject.

troodon · Sep 17, 2003

mattes said:
The Bible uses imagry to get its point across or to paint a vivid picture of its subject.

So what makes your passage the real one while making wblastyn's 3 non-literal?

Extrabibilical sources? *gasp*

mattes · Sep 17, 2003

troodon said:
So what makes your passage the real one while making wblastyn's 3 non-literal?

Extrabibilical sources? *gasp*

LOL Yeah, i've never said theres anything wrong with Extrabiblical information. I'm just saying I dont belive in evolution.

wblastyn · Sep 17, 2003

mattes said:
LOL Yeah, i've never said theres anything wrong with Extrabiblical information. I'm just saying I dont belive in evolution.

Why not?

How?

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