How tolerant are you of other religions?

radorth · Sep 19, 2003

Yours is not the inclusive religion. Yours is exclusive by definition. An inclusive "religion" would save souls by imputing righteousness in order to save those who have none.

But then it wouldn't be much of a religion, would it?

Heh.

Rad

mo.mentum · Sep 19, 2003

radorth said:
Yours is not the inclusive religion. Yours is exclusive by definition. An inclusive "religion" would save souls by imputing righteousness in order to save those who have none.

Your attitude towards other cultures is rampant of egocentrism and holier than thou-ness.

Is not all life sacred? Are not all things created by God? WHat do you know if they have a soul or not? What gives you such insight to be able to judge everyone in one shot.

Hmmm self-worship, i see.

TLGitom · Sep 20, 2003

mo.mentum said:
Your attitude towards other cultures is rampant of egocentrism and holier than thou-ness.

Is not all life sacred? Are not all things created by God? WHat do you know if they have a soul or not? What gives you such insight to be able to judge everyone in one shot.

Hmmm self-worship, i see.

God has never tolerated any thing that He did not institute. Sense He rejected the sacrifice of Cain and looked favorably on Ables. The debate that resulted in Able's murder still rages. Those that can not accept God's plan for salvation through Jesus Christ will always rage in their hearts against God's will. Until one submits to the truth and the way, their hearts will always rage against Christ. [font=arial,helvetica]

Samuel Thompson wrote:

I don't believe in Santa Claus, but I'm not going to sue somebody for singing a Ho-Ho-Ho song in December.

I don't agree with Darwin, but I didn't go out and hire a lawyer when my high school teacher taught his theory of evolution.

Life, liberty or your pursuit of happiness will not be endangered because someone says a 30-second prayer before a football game. So what's the big deal? It's not like somebody is up there reading the entire book of Acts. They're just talking to a God they believe in and asking him to grant safety to the players on the field and the fans going home from the game. "But it's a Christian prayer," some will argue. Yes, and this is the United States of America, a country founded on Christian principles. And we are in the Bible Belt. According to our very own phone book, Christian churches outnumber all others better than 200-to-1. So what would you expect-somebody chanting Hare Krishna?

If I went to a football game in Jerusalem, I would expect to hear a Jewish prayer.

If I went to a soccer game in Baghdad, I would expect to hear a Muslim prayer.

If I went to a ping pong match in China, I would expect to hear someone pray to Buddha. And I wouldn't be offended. It wouldn't bother me one bit. When in Rome...

"But what about the atheists?" is another argument. What about them? Nobody is asking them to be baptized. We're not going to pass the collection plate. Just humor us for 30 seconds. If that's asking too much, bring a Walkman or a pair of ear plugs. Go to the bathroom. Visit the concession stand. Call your lawyer. Unfortunately, one or two will make that call. One or two will tell thousands what they can and cannot do. I don't think a short prayer at a football game is going to shake the world's foundations.

Christians are just sick and tired of turning the other cheek while our courts strip us of all our rights. Our parents and grandparents taught us to pray before eating, to pray before we go to sleep. Our Bible tells us just to pray without ceasing. Now a handful of people and their lawyers are telling us to cease praying. God, help us. And if that last sentence offends you, well..........just sue me.

The silent majority has been silent too long.. it's time we let that one or two who scream loud enough to be heard, that the vast majority don't care what they want.. it is time the majority rules!

It's time we tell them, you don't have to pray.. you don't have to say the pledge of allegiance, you don't have to believe in God or attend services that honor Him. That is your right, and we will honor your right.. but by golly you are no longer going to take our rights away .. we are fighting back.. and we WILL WIN! After all the God you have the right to denounce is on our side!

God bless us one and all, especially those who denounce Him...

God bless America, despite all her faults.. still the greatest nation of all...

God bless our service men who are fighting to protect our right to pray and worship God...

May 2003 be the year the silent majority is heard and we put God back as the foundation of our families and institutions.

Keep looking up...... In God WE Trust

Amen!

So If you are looking for tolerance the above quote best sums up the level of tolerance we have and the extremes of nontolerance that others have displayed in our courts.
[/font]

Palatka44 · Sep 20, 2003

mo.mentum said:
Your attitude towards other cultures is rampant of egocentrism and holier than thou-ness.

Is not all life sacred? Are not all things created by God? WHat do you know if they have a soul or not? What gives you such insight to be able to judge everyone in one shot.

Hmmm self-worship, i see.

It seems to me that it is the other way around, Mo. Is it not you that is relying on self goodness in the hopes that you are good enough before God?

Matthew 19:16-17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Sep 20, 2003

mo.mentum said:
Your attitude towards other cultures is rampant of egocentrism and holier than thou-ness.

Is not all life sacred? Are not all things created by God? WHat do you know if they have a soul or not? What gives you such insight to be able to judge everyone in one shot.

Hmmm self-worship, i see.

We always go to God's word to see what He says. Everyone else looks inside themselves to see what they think.

As for all life being sacred, I'm looking at those twin towers, or what used to be...

I see Islamic men in Pakistan raping women because they are Christians. In one case this year an entire community of men raped a girl for something her brother had done. Tell me where the justice is in that. I see bombings everywhere, it's endless.

mo.mentum · Sep 20, 2003

Palatka44 said:
It seems to me that it is the other way around, Mo. Is it not you that is relying on self goodness in the hopes that you are good enough before God?

Matthew 19:16-17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

First, I was referring to rad's attitude towards anyone different from himself. Not to the concept of good vs evil in general terms.

I will explain my point once and for all in my next post.

mo.mentum · Sep 20, 2003

Whitehorse said:
We always go to God's word to see what He says. Everyone else looks inside themselves to see what they think.

As for all life being sacred, I'm looking at those twin towers, or what used to be...

I see Islamic men in Pakistan raping women because they are Christians. In one case this year an entire community of men raped a girl for something her brother had done. Tell me where the justice is in that. I see bombings everywhere, it's endless.

Your logic is beyond me. How do these acts equate violence with Islam is still vague.

1 out of 3 British women has been raped. There's a rape in the USA every 180 seconds. Does that say anything about Christianity? No.

You cannot associate the actions of a people to the Creed, especially that it's quite obvious that Islam doesn't condone rape or illegal sexual intercourse outside of marriage, no matter what!

And stop using the Twin Towers as an example. Just because the hijackers and the planners claimed to be Muslim, doesn't mean that the whole of the Muslim community agrees with them. Life is sacred.

And believe me, the atrocities all these "Muslims" are committing will get their just punishement from God, in this world or the next. The Qur'an doesn't give a free licence to act like animals!!!

So stop pounding on my Creed!

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Sep 20, 2003

mo.mentum said:
Your logic is beyond me. How do these acts equate violence with Islam is still vague.

1 out of 3 British women has been raped. There's a rape in the USA every 180 seconds. Does that say anything about Christianity? No.

You cannot associate the actions of a people to the Creed, especially that it's quite obvious that Islam doesn't condone rape or illegal sexual intercourse outside of marriage, no matter what!

And stop using the Twin Towers as an example. Just because the hijackers and the planners claimed to be Muslim, doesn't mean that the whole of the Muslim community agrees with them. Life is sacred.

And believe me, the atrocities all these "Muslims" are committing will get their just punishement from God, in this world or the next. The Qur'an doesn't give a free licence to act like animals!!!

So stop pounding on my Creed!

I'm making honest reflections. You're at a Christian forum. You make observations about our religion.

Regarding those British statistics, I'm skeptical, frankly, but that's aside from the point that these people who are committing these rapes are not Christians. With Islam, the government is forcibly entwined with the religion. And these other crimes you speak of are not in the name of Christianity.

Havoc · Sep 20, 2003

Fallacy of "no true scotsman"

mo.mentum · Sep 20, 2003

I'm saying that mankind can be good just by their own intellect or reason!!

God gave us those tools in order to:
1- recognize His Signs and Warnings
2- choose to follow His Guidance and Prophets
3- be able to accept that not everyone is like us

He is the only Sovereign and we are His servants. We are not to make up our own rules about what is right or wrong. My emphasis on us being able to do good by ourselves is in relation to not needing an external force to insight us to do good, as my Christian friends argue is the role of the Holy Spirit. Unless I understand it wrong.

Guidance has come from God to every nation on earth. Is He to leave His beloved creatures without criteria and rules yet judge them all? Nay! All people have received their prophets, throughout history.

It's obvious we're not gonna know about all of them. It's no secret taht every prophet has had to put up with fierce resistance from the people he was sent to Enlighten. Only a few righteous men and women followed these prophets. But the societies either got rid of the prophet or "struck his name off the record", never to be heard of a again.

So every society has received Guidance. Every nation has gotten its way of worship. Some were preserved, others corrupted and sank back into idolatry and pagan beliefs. It is a Sign of God's infinite Wisdom and Knowledge that He has created so many varieties of things, especiall humans!

O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Indeed! the noblest of you, in the sight of God, is the best in conduct. Lo! God is All-Knower, Fully-Aware. (Quran 49: 13).

And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge. (Qur'an 30:22)

Before Adam was cast down to Earth from Paradise, he was forgiven for his disobediance of God's Command regarding the 'Tree'. (in our version, Adam and Eve were both deceived by Satan; not Eve being deceived then bringing Adam down with her)

Then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful. God said: "Get down all of you from this place (Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'an 2:37-38)

God Loves His creatures and would not let us get lost on this Earth. He constantly and consistently sent us Warners and Messengers from Him. All societies have had their fair share. Every nation will be judged by what God has sent to it.

Verily, We (God) did send down the Torah [to Moses], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to God's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Torah after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of God's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what God has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers) (Qur'an 5:44)

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what God has revealed, (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (i.e. rebellious/disobedient) to God. (Qur'an 5:47)

NONE OF US should make up his own rules or rely on 'self-goodness' alone. But we must follow the guidance that God has sent down to each of us.

My argument about 'self-goodness' is that we work good deeds by ourselves, without the need for a Holy Spirit/Ghost to work through us. Humans have been able to do good since day 1, before the Holy Spirit entered us.

We must use our intellect to ponder about God, our reason to see His Guidance and Magnificence, our freedom of choice to choose to follow His guidelines for a better life.

I remember someone said that Jesus was the only human without sin and he set an example to all of us. I have to agree and disagree on this one. Yes, he was without sin and set an amazing example for all mankind. But he wasn't alone in this. All the prophets were without sin, by definition a prophet of God is a man without sin. And if he sins, God can remove his sins and pardon him in no time.

mo.mentum · Sep 20, 2003

Whitehorse said:
With Islam, the government is forcibly entwined with the religion. And these other crimes you speak of are not in the name of Christianity.

No. Those governments CLAIM to be Islamic but are nothing of the sort if we compare them to the great Muslim empires that have come and gone. They are nothing but lip service in order to gain "votes" and keep poeple under control. If these governments openly denied being "Islamic", there would be open rebellion in the streets. It's all social control. I know, I've lived it.

I don't see these Pakistani men shouting "God is Great" or "This is for God" while they're raping that poor Christian woman. They are acting out of tribal savagery and disillusion. They're not acting on what Islam has taught them.

These crimes are NOT done in the name of Islam. And even if they were, does it make it Islam's fault? Anyone can commit an atrocity and then claim its in the name So-and-So, but does it make it really in the name of So-and-So? No! We have to go investigate what So-and-So actually teaches then judge.

AGAIN! I emphasize that none of these governments are fully Islamic. If they were, they wouldn't be repressing and oppressing their own poeple. Yes these governments are intertwined with "religious zeal" but not necessarily the true values of Islam.

It's interesting though. In our doctrines, alot of what has been happening to Islam in the past century has been prophecized by Muhammad as the coming of the End Times and Jesus' return to Earth.
1. people using religion for personal gain or political end
2. muslim countries being cut up into smaller states
3. the Qur'an is read out loud but the meaning is lost
4. etc etc etc...

http://www.jesuswillreturn.com/signs/signs_index.html

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Sep 20, 2003

Havoc said:
Fallacy of "no true scotsman"

I'm not sure what you're saying with this one. Because that the claim that these British rapists were Christians, was never made by anyone, including mo.mentum. I'm having a hard time seeing the connection between rape statistics in Britain and religion of any kind. Moreover, the rapes I'm talking about are part of the intrinsic connection between religion and government that does not exist in England. So, can you see why I don't consider that a fair comparison?

(Opps! Typo!)

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Sep 20, 2003

mo.mentum said:
No. Those governments CLAIM to be Islamic but are nothing of the sort if we compare them to the great Muslim empires that have come and gone. They are nothing but lip service in order to gain "votes" and keep poeple under control. If these governments openly denied being "Islamic", there would be open rebellion in the streets. It's all social control. I know, I've lived it.

I don't see these Pakistani men shouting "God is Great" or "This is for God" while they're raping that poor Christian woman. They are acting out of tribal savagery and disillusion. They're not acting on what Islam has taught them.

These crimes are NOT done in the name of Islam. And even if they were, does it make it Islam's fault? Anyone can commit an atrocity and then claim its in the name So-and-So, but does it make it really in the name of So-and-So? No! We have to go investigate what So-and-So actually teaches then judge.

AGAIN! I emphasize that none of these governments are fully Islamic. If they were, they wouldn't be repressing and oppressing their own poeple. Yes these governments are intertwined with "religious zeal" but not necessarily the true values of Islam.

It's interesting though. In our doctrines, alot of what has been happening to Islam in the past century has been prophecized by Muhammad as the coming of the End Times and Jesus' return to Earth.
1. people using religion for personal gain or political end
2. muslim countries being cut up into smaller states
3. the Qur'an is read out loud but the meaning is lost
4. etc etc etc...

Okay, I see what you are saying. What I still don't understand is why Sharia law is forced upon new areas that do not already hold to this standard, and why such violence erupts as a result:

http://emeagwali.com/interviews/sharia/crisis-in-nigeria.html

mo.mentum · Sep 20, 2003

Whitehorse said:
Okay, I see what you are saying. What I still don't understand is why Sharia law is forced upon new areas that do not already hold to this standard, and why such violence erupts as a result:

http://emeagwali.com/interviews/sharia/crisis-in-nigeria.html

Such violence erupts because there is no transition! By following the method of the prophet Muhammad, we'd achieve our goals. But by blindly saying "ok as of today, Sharia is law" you're causing more harm.

First off, there is not One Sharia. Sharia has been formulated and reshaped with time to suit the needs of society. Today's Sharia is solely based on a strict interpreation of the Qur'an by over-zealous men with no regard to human values, as the Qur'an dictates.

They only seek to establish their political will by enforcing Sharia on Muslims and non-Muslims. Who gives them authority to say what Sharia Law is? No one! Sharia Laws used to be debated and formulated in the courts of the central Muslim government of the Caliphate, which united all the various Muslim empires under a loose "United Nations" of sorts. This system collapsed and was destroyed after WW1.

So there is no more central authority to regulate what the extremists pass as Law!

Also, the prophet brought Islam in stages, not in an overnight change of all the laws. For example, the prohibition on alcohol came in stages. First, the Qur'an referred to alcoholic drink as a thing despised. Later on, the early Muslims were commanded not to approach prayer or religious duties while drunk. Then finally, the command for full prohibition came.

The same happened with the removal of slavery. First it was labeled as a despised thing by God, then it was looked down upon, then the freeing of slaves earned you God's blessings, and finally a complete ban of the practice.

So you see. Islam needs to be "planted and grown" and poeple's hearts. That is my approach. And i do not agree with the practices of these "Muslim" rulers.

Do we agree?

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Sep 20, 2003

Well, I guess I just don't understand why all these religious governments are Islamic, then, if it really has no hand in it.

In America, we don't use the government to force any kind of religious belief whatsoever. Israel had God for its ruler, and judges and prophets to fulfill God's requirements. But it was a theocracy. And then Israel chose a king--against the will of God. And that led to corruptions that led the nation away from the one true God. So the forceful imposition of religion by human leadership has only led to things that displease our God, and now there are no Christian nations that do that anymore.

TLGitom · Sep 20, 2003

mo.mentum said:
I'm saying that mankind can be good just by their own intellect or reason!!

God gave us those tools in order to:
1- recognize His Signs and Warnings
2- choose to follow His Guidance and Prophets
3- be able to accept that not everyone is like us

He is the only Sovereign and we are His servants. We are not to make up our own rules about what is right or wrong. My emphasis on us being able to do good by ourselves is in relation to not needing an external force to insight us to do good, as my Christian friends argue is the role of the Holy Spirit. Unless I understand it wrong.

Guidance has come from God to every nation on earth. Is He to leave His beloved creatures without criteria and rules yet judge them all? Nay! All people have received their prophets, throughout history.

It's obvious we're not gonna know about all of them. It's no secret taht every prophet has had to put up with fierce resistance from the people he was sent to Enlighten. Only a few righteous men and women followed these prophets. But the societies either got rid of the prophet or "struck his name off the record", never to be heard of a again.

So every society has received Guidance. Every nation has gotten its way of worship. Some were preserved, others corrupted and sank back into idolatry and pagan beliefs. It is a Sign of God's infinite Wisdom and Knowledge that He has created so many varieties of things, especiall humans!

O mankind! Lo! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. Indeed! the noblest of you, in the sight of God, is the best in conduct. Lo! God is All-Knower, Fully-Aware. (Quran 49: 13).

And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are portents for men of knowledge. (Qur'an 30:22)

Before Adam was cast down to Earth from Paradise, he was forgiven for his disobediance of God's Command regarding the 'Tree'. (in our version, Adam and Eve were both deceived by Satan; not Eve being deceived then bringing Adam down with her)

Then Adam received from his Lord Words. And his Lord pardoned him (accepted his repentance). Verily, He is the One Who forgives (accepts repentance), the Most Merciful. God said: "Get down all of you from this place (Paradise), then whenever there comes to you Guidance from Me, and whoever follows My Guidance, there shall be no fear on them, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'an 2:37-38)

God Loves His creatures and would not let us get lost on this Earth. He constantly and consistently sent us Warners and Messengers from Him. All societies have had their fair share. Every nation will be judged by what God has sent to it.

Verily, We (God) did send down the Torah [to Moses], therein was guidance and light, by which the Prophets, who submitted themselves to God's Will, judged the Jews. And the rabbis and the priests [too judged the Jews by the Torah after those Prophets] for to them was entrusted the protection of God's Book, and they were witnesses thereto. Therefore fear not men but fear Me (O Jews) and sell not My Verses for a miserable price. And whosoever does not judge by what God has revealed, such are the Kâfirûn (i.e. disbelievers) (Qur'an 5:44)

Let the people of the Gospel judge by what God has revealed therein. And whosoever does not judge by what God has revealed, (then) such (people) are the Fâsiqûn (i.e. rebellious/disobedient) to God. (Qur'an 5:47)

NONE OF US should make up his own rules or rely on 'self-goodness' alone. But we must follow the guidance that God has sent down to each of us.

My argument about 'self-goodness' is that we work good deeds by ourselves, without the need for a Holy Spirit/Ghost to work through us. Humans have been able to do good since day 1, before the Holy Spirit entered us.

We must use our intellect to ponder about God, our reason to see His Guidance and Magnificence, our freedom of choice to choose to follow His guidelines for a better life.

I remember someone said that Jesus was the only human without sin and he set an example to all of us. I have to agree and disagree on this one. Yes, he was without sin and set an amazing example for all mankind. But he wasn't alone in this. All the prophets were without sin, by definition a prophet of God is a man without sin. And if he sins, God can remove his sins and pardon him in no time.

Mohammad was a demon possessed child molester Mo. Is it not true?

mo.mentum · Sep 20, 2003

TLGitom said:
Mohammad was a demon possessed child molester Mo. Is it not true?

WHAT?! Ok... Someone else better answer this kid or else I will blow.

Palatka44 · Sep 20, 2003

TLGitom said:
Mohammad was a demon possessed child molester Mo. Is it not true?

I think that you refer to the time that the Prophet took a very young girl to be one of his many brides.

mo.mentum · Sep 20, 2003

Palatka44 said:
I think that you refer to the time that the Prophet took a very young girl to be one of his many brides.

Ya. And in those days it was simple to do that, not for sexual pleasure! This was a marriage of alliance.

And men were encouraged to have several wives at the time because many of the women were widows and couldn't support themselves, so those of the men that had the means, were encouraged to marry up to 4 wives to help them. Not to receive sexual pleasure from them. They had to treat all 4 with equal love and tenderness.

The prophet had more wives because he alone was capable of taking care of them all equally.

The modern western perspective that marriage is a way to fulfill carnal needs is not valid in this context.

And as for the demon possession? Ok there. Would a demon possess a man to make him recite all sorts of glorifications about God? A possessed person is obviously possessed when their actions are erratic and chaotic, none of which were of Muhammad's style.

Was it Jerry Falwell who made these bigotted statements? Or Graham's son? I don't remember. But they're all hate mongers in this case.

TheOriginalWhitehorse · Sep 20, 2003

If they're truly concerned about the well-being of these women, why were thy not able to care for themselves? You have to admit, that's a pretty convenient arrangement.

I did not know that the concern for women was such a strong emphasis in this religion. Instead of conquering their own desires, they wrap women up in shrouds and outlaw lipstick.

How tolerant are you of other religions?

How tolerant are you?

I don't tolerant other religions well at all

I tolerate people of other beliefs, but know they are wrong

I see merits in other faiths besides my own

I tolerate people believing anything at all

I can easily tolerate faiths related or close to my own

I can easily tolerate faiths that are popular in my culture

I accept every faith as possibly true

I don't believe in any religion, and think they are all dumb

I believe in no religion, but see merits in some

I am undecided or different

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