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How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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YahuahSaves

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No I'm not atheist. At the moment I don't know what I believe. But its none of your business anyway. Also just an fyi, spellcheck will help you spell the word "A T H E I S T" correctly
Well if you ever decide to become a Christian, the first thing God will deal with is your spiteful attitude. (FYI).
 
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Kylie

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I'm done with you.

Your rudeness has driven me further from Christianity than I was before. Well done.
 
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Kylie

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Well if you ever decide to become a Christian, the first thing God will deal with is your spiteful attitude. (FYI).
Spiteful attitude? She was pointing out an error! If you chose to take it as rudeness, then that's on you. But she wasn't rude to you, just as you weren't rude to Ruthie. She was trying to help you by pointing out an error so you could avoid making the same error in the future.

Bye bye.
 
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YahuahSaves

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I'm done with you.

Your rudeness has driven me further from Christianity than I was before. Well done.


I did nothing but try to have a genuine discussion with you, but you failed to understand your misinterpretation of my words.

I shake the proverbial dust off my feet. Mark 6:11
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You can't compare these things with God because he's not imaginary. (Contrary to popular opinion).
The comparison was in terms of supernatural belief, particularly in intelligent non-human agency. The point was that, as a child, I had no trouble believing that they were real (until they proved to be otherwise). IOW, I had no inability or resistance to belief in supernatural agency.

On reflection, I think I believed in them because they consistently and reliably lived up to (and sometimes exceeded) the claims made for them. Even when I hadn't been particularly good (in my own view), Santa still came through. The Tooth Fairy always swapped the tooth under my pillow for the correct coinage. Clear evidence of personal connection.

OTOH, the claims made for God were never realised, from my POV. No response to prayers, no sense of presence, no reassuring inner voice, etc. - and the people that said they believed seemed no different to anyone else; not kinder, not friendlier or happier, and the monks - supposedly the holiest - were worst of all. It actually came as a relief in my teens when I realised I just didn't believe and didn't have to worry about any of that stuff anymore.

Yes, I've read it - at least the parts considered important; it was a necessary part of one's education. The stories were good, I got the moral lessons, I thought some of what Jesus said made a lot of sense (and wondered why no-one followed it). The core doctrinal parts never really made much sense to me.

So you believe you're a sack of meat and when you die that's it? In the ground never to be of any use or relevance ever again? Nothing beyond your physical life? That's a pretty sad.
'Sack of meat' is a pretty disparaging term for any animal. The human body has its flaws, but it's an amazing product of 3.5 -4 billion years of evolution. If you had studied the human body and brain at a degree level, as I have done, I don't think you'd use that phrase.

But yes, the evidence clearly indicates that we're born, we live, and then we die, and that's an end to it. I didn't exist at all before my parents had me, and I won't exist except as remains of some sort, and in the memories of others, once I'm dead. It's sad when you lose a loved one, and it's hard to conceive of non-existence. I expect that's partly why despite the lack of evidence, belief in an afterlife has been so universal and persistent over time. Wishful thinking.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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No .. the differnce is still demonstrably a belief because there's no objective evidence supporting it, (even if the logical reasoning and intent behind that difference is sound, which it doesn't have to be).
I'm not saying it's not a belief, just that it's a different kind of belief, and therefore there's a difference. I thought you'd already agreed to that.
 
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Astrid

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I'm not saying it's not a belief, just that it's a different kind of belief, and therefore there's a difference. I thought you'd already agreed to that.
Could you say why it's different?
 
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YahuahSaves

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I know what your comparison meant. But you wouldn't say such things if you've experienced the reality of demons, which is where these false ideologies come from. But I'm not trying to convince you saying this, I'm just stating the facts of Gods word.

I understand that, I also believed in these things as well. But deep in my heart I always believed in God as well (even though he never seemed to answer my prayers) but I also grew up in religion and wasn't taught that Jesus is God (not just Gods Son). Once I realised what the cross meant and came to saving faith in Jesus, is when he has answered almost every single prayer. God is good, but he's not a genie and every prayer answered is according to HIS will.

Yes the man-made Church has distorted the word of God for centuries and led many away from God, it is sad. I believe God is drawing people to him in this time as you only have to see the countless testimonies of faith around the world in the past few years. Not to cause you offence, but I'm going to pray that he does that for you.

Again this is often the case with kids indoctrinated in religion. I wondered the same things and believed a lot of churchgoers were hypocrites. I developed my own belief about God until I was corrected.

Ah ha! I was excited that you had a wonderful answer to my question but then

You said this.
Lack of evidence is not a good reason to believe you have no ultimate purpose on earth or in the kingdom of God. But I understand where you're at, because many people are there. They create their own idea of what the purpose of their life is and don't know that God has so much more planned for them...if only we are willing.. thank you for your genuine explanation of why you came to unbelief, I pray the love of God draws you to himself and you will never be the same again.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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If anyone believes in a God other than the Holy Bible, they're following the wrong God.
And they would likely say that of you. Others would say it's all the same God, but different, equally valid interpretations. Meh.

OK.

Redundant as unnecessary and unwarranted. It's not cynicism, it's an evidence-based view. We don't know where our universe came from. We can infer from current observations that it was once in a very hot, dense, and uniform state, then expanded rapidly, cooling and condensing into the matter that forms stars and galaxies, etc.

We don't yet have to tools to work out what would have happened prior to that (we need a theory of quantum gravity), but there are plenty of scientifically based more or less plausible ideas that have been suggested.

There are also many thousands of ideas based on creative imagination. Origin myths, involving everything from swirling chaos, empty voids, seeds, cosmic monsters, battling cosmic monsters, gods, battling gods, combinations of those, and many more. These are often accompanied by a set of religious beliefs of varying complexity and sophistication.

And you have managed to pick the one (or did it pick you?) that happens to be the One True Religion™. What are the chances?
 
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YahuahSaves

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Memories of who we were, and what we made our lives stand for, persist in our remaining friends/family's/community's minds.
We made a conscious reality persist beyond our death.
Not for long... Years ago I liked to visit cemeteries when I travelled to see what the oldest grave was and I would see many family members buried together (as is the case) I would wonder what they were like, what their life was like and realised many hadn't had a visitor to their grave for years and they were overgrown. I couldn't imagine an existence without God now that I know him, or what would be the point of this existence we call life? It's certainly something to think about.
 
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YahuahSaves

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So you don't think the design of the universe and everything in it that we understand about it so far is sophisticated? OK. But I bet humans could never replicate it
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I know what your comparison meant. But you wouldn't say such things if you've experienced the reality of demons, which is where these false ideologies come from.
You're right, I haven't experienced the 'reality' of demons; now I feel sorry for you...

Once I realised what the cross meant and came to saving faith in Jesus, is when he has answered almost every single prayer. God is good, but he's not a genie and every prayer answered is according to HIS will.
Oh yes; we used to hear that a lot - and, as you just demonstrated, we still do. When we asked "Why didn't God answer our prayer?" we'd get "He did, but in His own way", or "He doesn't answer every prayer", or "That's not the sort of prayer He answers", "He's very busy", or "You weren't sincere", and so on.

It was another unfalsifable proposition - for every prayer that wasn't answered, an excuse a reason could be found, and if anything good happened that could remotely be connected with a prayer, God had 'obviously' answered.
Whatever.

Ah ha! I was excited that you had a wonderful answer to my question but then

You said this.
Sorry to disappoint you. I agree that it's superficially unappealing, but it does make life something very special. It used to puzzle me why those who made a lot of noise about the wonders of the afterlife would fight so hard to avoid it!

I refer you to my sig (below).

thank you for your genuine explanation of why you came to unbelief...
You're welcome; although since I don't think I ever really believed, it's more a case of why I never came to believe. This is one of the reasons I spend time here - I'm curious to know why religious belief 'takes' for some but not for others.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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So you don't think the design of the universe and everything in it that we understand about it so far is sophisticated?
I didn't say that (why do you do that? I notice you don't like it when people do it to you).

One of the striking things about studying science is the relatively recent discovery of how the interaction of many simple items according to a few simple rules can give rise to emergent order and complexity and this can occur at many scales and levels, from particles to ecosystems to galaxy clusters.

I wouldn't say the universe is designed, but it has a wonderful emergent order and complexity to it - it's easy to see why people think it is somehow intentional. Having said that, it's not at all what one would expect from a designer whose intent was to produce a universe for the benefit of humans.

Biological evolution looks even more like design - but projecting purpose into the world is something we can't help doing (Dennett's 'Intentional stance', teleology, etc). Natural selection is a blind 'designer'; it has no purpose, but by trial and lots of error, produces organisms that appear to have goals and purpose because they can solve the problems of survival and reproduction - but when you take into account the vast mass of organisms that didn't make it - couldn't solve the problems and couldn't compete, you'll see what a terribly wasteful 'design' process it is.

It's kind of ironic that evolution eventually produced creatures that are flexible enough in their behaviour to calculate possible futures, plan ahead, define that as purpose, and project it onto the world.

OK. But I bet humans could never replicate it
No, indeed not. But we've modelled its cosmology in computer simulations, and we use the simple principle underlying evolution (reproduction with heritable variation, and selection) in computers to produce useful 'designs' that no human would have, or could have.
 
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Astrid

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Said scientist gave a personal
opinion.6
A witness speaking in court is
tasked with stating facts.

It's wholly irresponsible for a witness speaking
as a witness, or a scientidtvspeaking as a scientist,
to state personal opinion as fact.

Likewise its not responsible to speak of PhD
professors saying god isnt real coz it's not smart.

That is clearly made up and no example is
going to be forthcoming.
 
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Astrid

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Sorry to disappoint you. I agree that it's superficially unappealing, but it does make life something very special. It used to puzzle me why those who made a lot of noise about the wonders of the afterlife would fight so hard to avoid it!
We doubt any soldier in his foxhole thinks
" Terrif, I'm about to get e-ternal life"
when he sees the tanks coming.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I would accept claims from texts (there's no reason for me to have to accept an entire text or none of it).
I do the same. But that's not exactly what I was attempting to get at.

Ok. I don't want to speak for you or guess about your outlook on how human rationality woks, but it sounds like where science is concerned, you tend toward a view that combines both a Logical Positivist expectation (like Bertrand Russell used to be) with a posture toward Philosophical Naturalism (like Richard Dawkins and Jerry Coyne tend to be).

But please, correct me if I'm wrong.

What I'm trying to cut into here is that you may be unconciously appropriating a position in Philosophy of Science that can be challenged, and I'm wondering how much you have done so.

It could also be that you're used to encountering only fundamentalist Christians and have yet to engage any non-WLC Christians of higher caliber. So, if you actually are motivated (on behalf of your husband) to give Christianity the benefit of the doubt on at least some level (not that of the fundamentalist), you're not encountering them because you haven't had the chance to find out who they are and, hence, read them.

It also helps.......................to apply critical thinking to various atheist's positions of argument first before going to engage the better of the Christian thinkers that may be out there.

This is what I do. Atheistic Epistemology is hurdled FIRST, then I engage Christianity. Not the other way around, and not less that that (by "less" I mean----Christian Fundamentalism).
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I'm not disputing your right to post. Just pointing out that, by forum rules, posts should be on topic. Also, in case the inclination comes, apologetics are also not allowed in the science sub-forums.

I'm not sure if I already answered it, but if not, the answer is, as others have already made clear, you can't. God is scientifically ill-defined, and neither provable (nothing is provable in science) nor disprovable, like all such claimed supernatural phenomena. You can't use science in support of or help persuade to such beliefs.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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We doubt any soldier in his foxhole thinks
" Terrif, I'm about to get e-ternal life"
when he sees the tanks coming.
Well, that's a somewhat extreme example, but it fits my point - so why not? Why is it only the extreme fanatics, and then only for a sacred cause (and a promise of virgins)?
 
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