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JW How to defeat JW at the door?

The7thColporteur

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Hello Ratiocination,

Thank you for responding as you have.

Not really, as I am speaking about those Jehovah's Witnesses whom I have met at a door, whether mine or theirs.

The internet, is also a door or window between two ploaces, a conduit, as is a phone and a text. Thus, I am speaking with you at such a crossroads, or meeting place as this forum [your heart is the door, as Jesus shows in Revelation 3, therefore: "Knock, Knock, anyone home?" I wonder if you will answer this call of mine, as it is an invitation from the highest Kingdom, in the hands of a kingly ambassador ...]. The OP was about how to defeat Jehovah's Witnesses in such places, as at a door. I was more concerned about winning such persons to truth, in such places, and inviting them to dialogue rather than running them off, or simply winning an argument.

My questions concern two things, prophecy, in Daniel and in Revelation, as it is in scripture [KJB] and as it is in WTS materials. The secondary regards the materials of the WTS in the named online book WTS, "Jesus—The Way, the Truth, the Life".

I have in the past, when meeting at such doors, with Jehovah's Witnesses, found they are not interested in truth [hence your current refusal to look at the linked material], but in subscriptions, as they will not answer my questions [and I have no idea why, as they don't ever tell me]. If all that is wanted is some tally numbers for your weekly sheet, you may add me to it, and I will move on.

I will let the OP user decide if I have gone off OP or no, and if they say that I have, I will leave and create a new thread. Will you give me your "Yea", that you will join and answer my honest questions?
 
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Ratiocination

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Ratiocination

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7thColporteur...

The OP is quite specific on "how" to defeat a JW, and it was a discussion of asserting the ownership of certain identities to speakers in the book of Revelation.
You are talking about prophecy in Daniel and Revelation. Seems very off topic to me.
Again, if you've got an argument that you feel is worth discussing then I'm all ears, but I will not look through "linked" materials to find your arguments for you, you need to state them clearly here [in an appropriately named thread], otherwise I will assume you don't really want to talk but instead what to waste my time!
And please stop with the monologues, it serves no one and wastes cyber ink!
Make an argument!

Sorry I posted the first post by accident it's supposed to quote your reply in here too!

Regards
 
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The7thColporteur

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Again, I will let the OP decide.

Prophecy is how you 'defeat' the WTS, and win the Jehovah's Witness. Reading their material is how one 'defeats' the WTS, and 'wins' the person to truth.

I always accept their material at the door, read it, highlight it, and ask them to come back to discuss it in the light of scripture [KJB] and their own published materials.

... Again, if you've got an argument that you feel is worth discussing then I'm all ears, but I will not look through "linked" materials to find your arguments for you ...
The linked material proves Michael is Jesus, but since you did not look ... and Christians from the beginning, and every Reformer taught this, but since you did not look [or can't, or won't ...]

... , you need to state them clearly here [in an appropriately named thread], otherwise I will assume ...
Yes, 'assuming' is what the WTS does best, they assume for everyone. I was hoping you might be different that those I have met in the past.

... you don't really want to talk but instead what to waste my time!
I tried to ask you something specific about two things, Prophecy and WTS materials, and a named book thereof. I asked you if you would engage those two things here. Will you? If not here, then in another thread? I need a 'Yea' or 'Nay' from you specifically.

... And please stop with the monologues, it serves no one and wastes cyber ink! ...
You are very controlling.

... Make an argument! ...
I am. Namely that Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to read other than WTS publications in regards prophecy or doctrine. If not so, prove me wrong by considering the two links, to an independant study, my own personal in fact. It is published free for all, that all may benefit.

... Sorry I posted the first post by accident it's supposed to quote your reply in here too!

Regards
I understood what you meant.
 
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seeking.IAM

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Is there anything in the OP that you find compelling?

No, there really isn't.
...
Maybe I could ask you; How many speakers are there in Revelation?
The guy that started this thread is clearly not interested in civil discussion, but maybe you are?

I suspect we don't really know how many speakers there are in Revelation. Ever read "Misquoting Jesus" by Ehrman?
 
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Ratiocination

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So I've read about attempted predictions of Christians since the first century onward, I'm a little confused why you think your angle is out of bounds to JW'S?
I read the first link you posted, well skimmed it, haven't looked at the second yet. I did read the first link when you first posted it, but listen, I'm not chasing around your materials to find an argument for you, that was my point.
Btw I think you've put in some long hours on those materials, and I was intending to cause offense, I appreciate anyone's sincere Bible study, and it certainly looks like you've done that. BUT, your needlessly informing me about your meetings with other JW's really serves no purpose with me, it seems that it's only purpose is some kind of point scoring excercise, and that'll just put most people off wanting to talk to you. I'm not controlling, just pointing out that talking about yourself is a little vain... Be "straight down the middle", tell me what youre thinking and I'll respond.
 
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Ratiocination

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seeking.IAM

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Well you better believe it or, apparently, you're going to hell with me!

Not yet, but I've just purchased it from Amazon lol
View media item 58799

I think belief in the book of Revelation is not the foundation for salvation. So, in that regard we're probably both safe...at least in regards to that.
 
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The7thColporteur

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CCHIPSS

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If you feel offended I apologize. I will say that my original intend is to teach Christians how to defeat JW's with theology. I didn't write it to be gentle with JW's, since JW's wasn't my original audience.

Either way I cannot control how you feel. Because the meaning of being "rude" is different from person to person. So there is no way I can make you feel that I am not rude to you, even if I tried. I can also say I don't feel respected by you. So let's just end this discussion on rudeness since it leads to nowhere.

As for hell, it is truly my belief that JW's are heading to hell. I don't have to say it, for the sake of being "polite". But what I believe is what I believe. And if it make you feel better, I think anyone that hates the true Jesus and hates their neighbours are heading to hell. This includes people from all other faith, and even some people inside churches. I know plenty of church goers that hates God and hates their neighbours, by their evil and harmful deeds. And I confront and discipline them as needed.

So my "disrespect" (as you called it) doesn't apply to JW's alone, but anyone that I feel might be heading to hell. I state plainly the truth because I love them. If I lie just to make them feel better, just to be polite or just to get them to like me, that isn't true love.

Because anyone that accepts the true Jesus as their savior, and in return love God and love their neighbours will be saved. No one can love God yet hate their neighbours. Because God is love. God didn't just save us, but call us into a mandatory new life of love (Luke 8:11-18). Our confidence of eternal life must be based on the evidence that just as God is love, we also demonstrate love in this world. (1 John 4:16-21) Hence if I see anyone that acts in a way that hates the true Jesus or hate their neighbours, I must confront and discipline them if I truly love them.

I have nothing but love for JW's and other non-believers. I say this even as you might think I was disrespectful. I do not necessarily express it politely and perfectly. But I do care about these people's eternal well being. Now I say this while being open to improve myself to be more polite. We all have room for improvement. But right now I do not question my love for those that are lost.

There is one thing that I wish you can prove me wrong. From my experience with JW's, real life or online, they keep on dodging questions. They will never give you a clear answer. They go around in circles wasting time and never fight a Christian directly with right theology. Because JW's know they cannot. The right theology is with Christians, not JW. JW's can only stick to their scripts, just as the Watchtower taught them.

Like here you are focusing about how rude I am, instead of the discussion at hand. And just like how you keep on saying The7thColporteur is going "off topic" without talking about his/her points. To me you are just avoiding and delaying the discussion, going around in circles. You do this to wait for an opportunity to go back to your practiced Watertower scripts.

Please notice that when JW's do this they don't actually get to the truth. They might be able to win a particular argument against Christians with these tactics. But Jehovah God is our witness and truth is all that matters.

Perhaps you can prove me wrong. I am all ears. =)
 
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Ratiocination

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If you feel offended I apologize. I will say that my original intend is to teach Christians how to defeat JW's with theology. I didn't write it to be gentle with JW's, since JW's wasn't my original audience.
The bible doesn't contain theology, it contains simple truths. Thanks for the apology, accepted.

Ministry failed.
It is truly my belief that hell is an invention of medieval men to scare the living daylights out of the masses. It's because of this doctrine that you cannot ever have the courage to investigate fully their own beliefs.
Hypothetically: If you were Satan and you wanted to make sure that truth seekers wouldn't find the real Jesus, would't you go ahead and create a false doctrine that said you will burn forever if you change your beliefs? Imagine this kind of thing being the work of the True God, I mean seriously, this is so obviously not true. It makes me wonder what or where people have gone wrong in either their upbringing or bible study to think this is even slightly true. This is a threat from Satan, nothing more.

No one is going to hell, not you or anyone, the truth must be a willing sacrifice of one's life and service, not a threat, be serious!

If you don't accept this version of Jesus I will burn you and your family including your beloved wife, children, mother, brothers helpless friends, right in front of your face for you to see their tears and pain forever, while they scream for help and beg for mercy I will make you watch them burn, and I will enjoy this pain because you deserve it. This is obviously not true of the real God!

Those that are "lost" are going to burn.

Wait, so it's my fault you're rude? I thought you apologised up top? You are the one going around in circles here. The7thColporteur has been answered and proceed to dump pages and pages of information into the thread, this is not debate, it's a logical fallacy called Gish galloping, used when you want to overwhelm your "opponent" and force them to spend hours just plucking out all of the shallow and weak points. There were lots of weak points! I've said to him I don't know where to begin with his material, it was a question to him. So read the other thread again and be fair about the situation.

Well, I answered all the points in the OP then I was told I'm going to hell, how could you possibly type this last part with a straight face!?
 
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Catholic4Jesus

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I'm always happy to talk about Jesus and my faith with people. I do admire the way JWs put their spare time into door to door preaching, it is commendable. Do I agree with them doctrinally? Absolutely not, but I am always kind and open to talking to and listening to them and, of course, sharing my faith with them.
 
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The7thColporteur

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They're called "details".

It amazes me yet still that a WTS member would use an anti-creationist, anti-scriptural, atheistical-God-hating so-called 'logical fallacy' [defined by anti-God person - Gish Gallop - RationalWiki see "... The term was coined by Eugenie Scott of the National Center for Science Education in the 1990s, and is named after the behavior of creationist Duane Gish[2] ..."] , you sure do know how to pick your allies don't you?, those who do not actually have logic, since they deny Jesus, the God of logic, guess it would fit right in with WTS] argument instead of a scriptural [KJB] one.

By the way, what was this of yours?, citing in list format so-called LXX [which disagrees with your NWT by the way] - Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

You even fell on the side of a syncratist against truth - Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

It is easy to 'hand-wave'. There was no agreement that I had to limit my answer to so many words, and I never agreed to such a thing. I am not afraid of pages of evidence. I study, read, consider, compare.

WTS/JW have about 8 texts on this issue they circle around and around, and around, John 1:1; Colossians 1:16; 1 John 5:7; John 10:29; Revelation 3:14 ... zzzzzzzz [well if they want to go there, let's go, already posted on those]

Feel free to address specifically any "weak points" you seem to think there are, and could you at least address the "strong points" too instead of bypassing those?, but while you are doing that, at the same time, could you actually address my questions that I had asked to heman from the start?

By the way, have you even bothered to consider the evidences I laid out from scripture and history for the "Cross", and even showed that the WTS misused its citations? Hello??? [of course I know what you will say... 'you didn't answer my ...'; and then see the OP again]


Godhead:

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

Well, beyond all that, I saw your post - Non-Trinitarian - The God or a god

And it was too late before I saw it, so the Prophecy Thread is up, ready to go, just waiting for you -

JW - Prophecy - 2 Peter 1:19-21; Genesis 40:8 KJB - Daniel & Revelation, etc. Who's Right? SDA or WTS/JW?

Evidence, details, citations, references, documentation, let's have it. Please read the rules carefully, before beginning.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The short cut in Rev 1:8 is to ask, who is to come again? When did he come the first time?
 
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GodsGrace101

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Why would you want to "defeat" one of Jehovah's Witnesses (Isiah 43:10)? Surely a pleasant conversation would be much more Christian! (Psalm 133:1)
Why just talk when you could possibly get someone saved?
 
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