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Try this, A couple goes to an orphanage and they adopt 2 children out of 200 children that are there.If that is not part of the illustration, then the illustration is inadequate to the actual case.
To make the illustration accurate to the divine situation, another element must be added: if all the kids are going to become slave laborers, then those I do not adopt are consigned to slave labor.Try this, A couple goes to an orphanage and they adopt 2 children out of 200 children that are there.
they don't have to adopt any, they choose to adopt 2 not based necessarily on what the children do they just for their own reason choose two are you gonna fault them for not adopting all 200 kids?
Paul had it.It's relevant to me. And everyone has scriptures. The SDA have gobs of scripture. But it's another doctrine that didn't exist for a thousand plus hundreds of years. I'm a little skeptical of these doctrines that God waited so long to enlighten someone with.
They did. Such as Paul.This isn't something someone comes up with from just reading the Bible, because if it was, many would have come up with it hundreds of years earlier.
Exactly so!Is God not free to show mercy to some if he so chooses? (Romans 9:18)
So I see your continuing notion that mere chance has determining power beyond that of First Cause.It's how one qualifies the term "predestination" in order to understand what it means regarding God's will for man an His actions within us. It's not strict determinism, but rather includes God's foreknowledge of what we will do, then His use of our choices and actions for His own purposes. So, did God harden Pharoah's heart or did Pharoah harden Pharoah's heart? In Exodus it's said that both did, but that Pharoah hardended his own heart many more times than that God did. So the Church teaches:
This is a good point. We are talking about a doctrine that could not exist apart from philosophical and theological developments over the course of over a thousand years.But it's another doctrine that didn't exist for a thousand plus hundreds of years. I'm a little skeptical of these doctrines that God waited so long to enlighten someone with.
If God is first cause, he caused all subsequent things. Including the choices we freely make. If God is not first cause, you can look for him on Mt Olympus —I have no use for such a god.It doesn't seem that would amount to them sending themselves to hell though, if God predestined them to go there no matter what.
The Calvinist / Reformed interpretation of Romans 9 didn't exist until 1500 years after it was written.
And according to what I looked up, currently only about 80 million out of 800 million (10%) Protestants are Calvinist / Reformed.
Calvinism, and Reformed Theology, are not (contrary to the notions of some attendees) self-supporting, but Doctrine supporting. That is, they are based on Scripture, and not on Calvin nor Luther nor anyone else, but God and his Word. This is not a club-come-lately like Dispensationalism. Every book in the Bible assumes or teaches the same things Calvinism and Reformed Theology teach. And if anyone can show that they teach extraneous things, then the Reformed want Scripture, not Reformed Theology.This is a good point. We are talking about a doctrine that could not exist apart from philosophical and theological developments over the course of over a thousand years.
I do not have an issue with predestination and "double predestination" as all things being predestined is necessary if God is omniscient (if God is all knowing, to include a foreknowledge of future contingencies). Everything must be ordained if God, being omniscient, is the Creator (God created knowing what would unfold).
That seems logical to me. But that is not quite Calvinism (a position I abandoned years ago).
FALSE. I stand by Calvinism, not because of Calvinism, nor because of Reformed Theology, but by what I have found in Scripture before I even knew it was called Calvinism the last few hundred years.The SDA whom you disagree with profusely can say the same thing. The fact is, as the article says, one must become indoctrinated by Calvinists to see Calvinsm in the Bible.
Your carnal reasonong is off.To make the illustration accurate to the divine situation, another element must be added: if all the kids are going to become slave laborers, then those I do not adopt are consigned to slave labor.
No one would fault me for not adopting 200, but then I'm not God with the ability to do so.
Single predestination is necessarily double predestination.
No...not at all.To make the illustration accurate to the divine situation, another element must be added: if all the kids are going to become slave laborers, then those I do not adopt are consigned to slave labor.
No one would fault me for not adopting 200, but then I'm not God with the ability to do so.
Single predestination is necessarily double predestination.
You haven't shown how.Your carnal reasonong is off.
The fact remains: when there are only two options, in his destining only some to one (salvation), he has thereby destined the others to the only other (damnation).If God had not planned redemption, all would perish, dead in Adam.
All mankind are dead in Adam going over a water fall
God does not have to save any.
In mercy He reaches down, and saves a multitude
Her use and meaning, her reasoning, is not carnal. I don't think you realize @Clare73 agrees with you. Her only objection was to the nature of, or maybe the validity of, your parallel or allegory. She has no objection to anything you say here, other than the assumption behind it, that she opposes you. She does not oppose you.Your carnal reasonong is off.
If God had not planned redemption, all would perish, dead in Adam.
All mankind are dead in Adam going over a water fall
God does not have to save any.
In mercy He reaches down, and saves a multitude
You're probably in the minority.FALSE. I stand by Calvinism, not because of Calvinism, nor because of Reformed Theology, but by what I have found in Scripture before I even knew it was called Calvinism the last few hundred years.
My point is that the doctrines are scriptural. Calvinistic or not is irrelevant.You're probably in the minority.
The theology however IS NOT spot on it's way, way off from the truth.One of the biggest problems I have with Calvinism is that, even if the theology is spot on true, it’s God isn’t worth following. He may be sovereign and all, but that doesn’t make Him good if He directly wills/ causes/ predetermines every evil act, or predestines anyone to eternal torment. ‘He’s God; His thoughts are not my thoughts’, and that’s supposed to make it ok-to be in the hands of an all-powerful, untrustworthy God.
Sorry but this is such a silly way of reasoning. First you bring it down to such a low natural way of how could most families even adopt 200....how would they take care of them. I think that's the feeling you're seek to create. You're talking about God who created billions of galaxies with trillions of stars and each and you're talking about 200 kids like a problem.Try this, A couple goes to an orphanage and they adopt 2 children out of 200 children that are there.
they don't have to adopt any, they choose to adopt 2 not based necessarily on what the children do they just for their own reason choose two are you gonna fault them for not adopting all 200 kids?
The longer it takes a theology to come into existence and the less accepted it is, the more likely it is that it's man-made.If God is first cause, he caused all subsequent things. Including the choices we freely make. If God is not first cause, you can look for him on Mt Olympus —I have no use for such a god.
Paul wrote Romans 9, and Romans 8, and Romans 7, 6, 5 etc. And Ephesians 2 and many more such places. And Jesus taught Reformed Theology, though it was not called that until what— 1500 years later? In fact, Reformed Theology is taught in Genesis 1, 2, 3 etc.
WHAT in the world does comparative numbers of those said to be Calvinists vs the total numbers of those said to be Christians have to do with anything?
doctrines, even patently false ones, are based on scripture and have lots of proof-texts. What's relevant is how much indoctrination is needed to get someone to accept that doctrine. And how many Christians reject it outright.My point is that the doctrines are scriptural. Calvinistic or not is irrelevant.
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