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I probably would have added that 'what we choose to do - and do - counts, while understanding that they count only while done under grace, by virtue of union with God'.And our actions do count.
The act of Creation determined that everything would happen as God knew it would happen.
That does not mean we do not have free will, or that God controls our choices.
See the problem I have here is something that brings people like me with mental illness terrible anxiety.The thought of slipping and falling away brings terror to my soul.No that’s not what those verses say at all.
John 10:28-29 is referring to His sheep who hear and follow. It is not referring to those who heard and followed then turned away. The statement “no one is able to snatch them out of The Father’s hand” refers to a third party. It doesn’t say that they can’t turn away nor does it say they can’t be cast away by The Father.
Romans 8:38-39 says nothing can separate us from the love of God. It doesn’t say we can’t lose our salvation. John 3:16 says that God so loved the world. That’s why He sent Jesus to die for the sins of the whole world. It doesn’t say that He only loves those who repent and believe.
Ephesians 4:30 says do not grieve the Holy Spirit with whom you have been sealed unto the day of redemption. Paul continues that message in chapter 5 beginning with the word “Therefore”.
“Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma. But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.”
Ephesians 5:1-6 NASB1995
Those who continue to grieve the Holy Spirit have no inheritance in the kingdom of God and are deserving of God’s wrath because they are once again sons of disobedience.
None of these verses or any other verses in the scriptures give any indication that a person can’t lose their salvation. The doctrine of eternal security wasn’t invented until the 16th century. It wasn’t taught in any Christian church for the first 1500 years of Christianity.
I was not talking about desire.No because much of what has and will happen is not what God desires. God didn’t want to destroy man in the flood. He knew that He was going to but He didn’t like it. God didn’t want Adam or anyone else to sin but they did it anyway. God has been constantly disappointed by man. This is proof that He did not determine everything that would happen.
Which has nothing to do with "grounding in basic Christian teaching" from the NT.No offense sister but that kind of thinking can also lead to inaccurate interpretations.
A lot of people, and I’m not directing this towards anyone in particular, but
a lot of people end up twisting the scriptures
If you're new to Christianity, you don't come to the Scriptures with your own doctrines by which you interpret the Scriptures.A lot of people, and I’m not directing this towards anyone in particular, but a lot of people end up twisting the scriptures out of context in order to hold on to doctrines. It’s extremely important that we allow the scriptures to interpret our doctrines
not allow our doctrines to interpret the scriptures.
"Fallen away from grace" in context there refers to "falling away from grace" and "into law" for justification/righteousness, not a falling out of salvation.For example I once held to the doctrine of eternal security but when I came across verses like Galatians 5:4
Trusting God to keep him in the salvation, to which he was guaranteed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:14), does not mean he fears possibly losing that salvation. It means he believes and trusts God's guarantee to keep him saved.or 2 Timothy 2:12 they were confusing to me because
these verses indicate that saved Christians can lose their salvation.
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps you needed a teacher in that case, whom God has appointed to the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:28; Ephesians 4:11) for that purpose?Instead of letting the scriptures teach exactly what they say I was forced to say to myself I don’t know what those are saying because they can’t be saying that a person can lose their salvation because that would contradict the doctrine of eternal security. To me at the time that was inconceivable so
I had to ignore those verses because they just couldn’t make sense to me.
However, it seems you have reevaluated the Scriptures to coincide with your (incomplete understanding of the) doctrine of eternal security (i.e., John 6:39, John 10:28; Ephesians 1:14; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5).Obviously we can’t say that someone who has been severed from Christ and fallen from grace was never saved. That’s ignoring the context. A person can’t be severed from Christ who has never been connected to Him. A person can’t fall from grace who never received it. We also can’t say that Paul & Timothy weren’t saved. Paul wrote over half of the New Testament and Timothy was his favorite disciple. When we come across scriptures like these that are contradictory to doctrines
we have to reevaluate our doctrines so that they coincide with the scriptures.
Yeah ... Cristus Victor appeals to me because it just states WHAT IS and avoids speculating on WHY. God really is soft on revealing the WHY of His Business.No. I'm referring to understanding the atonement strictly through retributive justice (I believe the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement problematic).
The act of Creation determined that everything would happen as God knew it would happen.
That does not mean we do not have free will, or that God controls our choices.
Respectfully, I come to Christianity from Atheism and experiential knowledge of those sorts of things:Ahh so God caused the rape, God caused the murder, God caused the man to shoot 19 elementary kids, He predestined all that?
I'd say that you determined to have children you new would in some way (being children) disobey you.Bless you brother John. When I was a teenager I knew that when I had children of my own that I would not discipline them as harshly as my father disciplined me. I knew then that my children would be disobedient. Decades later when I finally decided to have children would you say that I determined them to disobey me by choosing to have them? That I predestined them to disobey me?
Since all men harden their own hearts, and that hardness is removed only by God's work of softening, all God has to do to "harden" a man's heart is to leave man to his own devices, and withhold his softening of them.Well, according to the bible God hardens men’s hearts-and men harden their own hearts-as if they could do otherwise-as if choice was involved.
And you know this, how?. . .when Scripture does fully work them out and clarify them on a given matter.Anyway, so much for sola scriptura, the doctrine that allows man-and woman-to come up with all kinds of personal, novel opinions, based on an isolated passage or two, many of which were never intended to be a fully worked out and clarified theological treatise on a given matter.
Those Scriptures have been there from the beginning.That would come later
Hopefully, from those Scriptures which have been there from the beginning.and the church has done so, to the extent possible.
Yes, "man willingly and freely, without external force or constraint, voluntarily chooses what he prefers"Anyway, predestination is a secondary issue as long as a person understands that
the will of man is necessarily involved in his salvation regardless-because otherwise the gospel would be subverted.
That depends on whether you believe Scripture (e.g., John 6:39, John 10:28; Romans 8:16; Ephesians 1:14; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5) or not.And the concept impacts no one directly anyway since none can know with 100% certainty that they’re a member of the elect, that they, personally, will persevere, etc.
I think a great example of this can be seen with the Jews and Romans.Respectfully, I come to Christianity from Atheism and experiential knowledge of those sorts of things:
"so God caused the rape"
"God caused the murder"
- God KNEW about the rape (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
- God COULD HAVE stopped the rape (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
- God was THERE when the rape occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)
"God caused the man to shoot 19 elementary kids"
- God KNEW about the murder (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
- God COULD HAVE stopped the murder (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
- God was THERE when the murder occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)
God was aware of the rape, murder and shooting, could have stopped them but did not, and was present at the scene allowing it to happen. Even "free will" cannot fully absolve God of any part in what happened ... unless god is a wooden idol carved by the hands of men.
- God KNEW about the shooting (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
- God COULD HAVE stopped the shooting (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
- God was THERE when the shooting occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)
"The buck stops here" seems apropos.
In my experience, people do not require God to MAKE them to evil, but God most certainly ALLOWS evil that He has the power to prevent.
I was not talking about desire.
If God created man knowing man would fall then by creating men He ordained that the Fall would occur (not that it should occur but that in occurring it was within His overall plan).
There are only three ways around this -
1. God is not omniscient
2. God is not Creator
3. Redefine omniscience to exclude contigent events
Respectfully, I come to Christianity from Atheism and experiential knowledge of those sorts of things:
"so God caused the rape"
"God caused the murder"
- God KNEW about the rape (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
- God COULD HAVE stopped the rape (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
- God was THERE when the rape occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)
"God caused the man to shoot 19 elementary kids"
- God KNEW about the murder (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
- God COULD HAVE stopped the murder (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
- God was THERE when the murder occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)
God was aware of the rape, murder and shooting, could have stopped them but did not, and was present at the scene allowing it to happen. Even "free will" cannot fully absolve God of any part in what happened ... unless god is a wooden idol carved by the hands of men.
- God KNEW about the shooting (or He is not omniscient and is not God)
- God COULD HAVE stopped the shooting (or He is not omnipotent and is not God)
- God was THERE when the shooting occurred (or He is not omnipresent and is not God)
"The buck stops here" seems apropos.
In my experience, people do not require God to MAKE them to evil, but God most certainly ALLOWS evil that He has the power to prevent.
See the problem I have here is something that brings people like me with mental illness terrible anxiety.The thought of slipping and falling away brings terror to my soul.
I'd say that you determined to have children you new would in some way (being children) disobey you.
And, I hope I'm not going to far here, I suspect that you desired that your children mature and be responsible so you disciplined them in some way without actually taking pleasure in that discipline.
No, it isn't.Ok but there a difference between allowing something to take place and predetermining or predestining it. Predestining it puts an active hand in establishing it. Predestining is not simply sitting by and watching it it’s actually taking part in making it come to be. Am I taking part in my son’s disobedience by having a son knowing that he will be disobedient at times?
Don't we all pray like Calvinists, looking to God for everything?Agreed. And that increases when they are praying. Sometimes they sound positively Calvinistic, at recognizing that God causes all things, and that whatsoever comes to pass is up to him.
Of course you didn't. Your son has free will.Yes I agree with all this but predestination is actually making something happen. I didn’t make my son disobey me by choosing to have a son.
What is your opinion of the police officer that hid while those Students were being shot ... is that the moral courage you expect from God?Allowing and taking part are two different things. Predestination is taking part in something, making it happen not watching someone else make it happen.
He chose us according to what he knew he would do regarding us--regeneration.I don’t think this is correct because the scriptures say
“He chose us according to His foreknowledge”
He chose us beforehand (predestined)and “for those whom He foreknew He predestined”.
Predestined means to choose beforehand so he chose us beforehand according to His choosing us beforehand? That doesn’t make sense.
Agreed. . .predestination is setting man's destiny, whilePredestined and foreknowledge are two different things. Your saying they are the same thing but they’re not. The Greek word that is used is prognosis. I’m sure we all know what gnosis means. It means knowledge. Prognosis means forecast or prediction.
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