How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

why would he

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His glory.

It's like saying:

A judge's justice and wisdom is displayed by judging a certain wicked man, and then jumping to the conclusion that this means the judge created the wickedness in the man so that he could judge him. It makes no sense.

I only asked if He could.
We'll get to whether He did next.

so his glory is displayed by creating evil? Is this what you are saying or not?

LJSGM said:

so his glory is displayed by creating evil? Is this what you are saying or not?

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Again you are avoiding my question and playing ventriloquist.

Could He?

drstevej said:

Again you are avoiding my question and playing ventriloquist.

Could He?

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again, you are asking me a question that NO ONE can answer except God himself.

LJSGM said:

again, you are asking me a question that NO ONE can answer except God himself.

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I say He could and I am hardly alone in that answer.

Your reasons for saying He didn't sure imply He couldn't... so why are you so tentative in answering...

Could He ?

drstevej said:

I say He could and I am hardly alone in that answer.

Your reasons for saying He didn't sure imply He couldn't... so why are you so tentative in answering...

Could He ?

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Shall we go around in circles now?

Anyone else want to comment or discuss something?

Romans 1

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Please show me where it says that God caused men's hearts to be hardened and wicked in order to display his glory?

Romans 5

8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Why did Christ die for us? could it be for love? where does it say that his primary purpose for creating us is to recieve glory?

God does everything for His Glory.

God told Moses, "And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get Me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten Me honor upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen" (Exo. 14:17, 18).

we also read ;

"There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses" (Josh. 11:19, 20).

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? the answer furnished by Scripture itself is, In order that God might show forth His power in him (Rom. 9:17);

cygnusx1 said:

God does everything for His Glory.

God told Moses, "And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get Me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten Me honor upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen" (Exo. 14:17, 18).

we also read ;

"There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them, as the Lord commanded Moses" (Josh. 11:19, 20).

Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? the answer furnished by Scripture itself is, In order that God might show forth His power in him (Rom. 9:17);

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Yes, and was pharaoh a believer or something? No one has been able to prove that God hardened their hearts before they rejected Him first.

LJSGM said:

Yes, and was pharaoh a believer or something? No one has been able to prove that God hardened their hearts before they rejected Him first.

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God said he would harden Pharoah long before Pharoah rejected the word of the lord.

the Jews were hardened so that ....... in order that they would not believe and be converted and healed.

the order is clear.

should it be quibbled over (as I expect) then need only think logically , who would need God to harden them AFTER they have hardened themselves ? No-one , for hardening would already be done.

cygnusx1 said:

God said he would harden Pharoah long before Pharoah rejected the word of the lord.

the Jews were hardened so that ....... in order that they would not believe and be converted and healed.

the order is clear.

should it be quibbled over (as I expect) then need only think logically , who would need God to harden them AFTER they have hardened themselves ? No-one , for hardening would already be done.

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IF this were true, that the Lord hardened the Jews before they believed, then none of the jews would believe, but a lot did, didn't they?

I think the problem is that people don't understand what God means by hardening.

Also, I believe in predestination in a sense, in that God foreknew our decisions, so predestined our lives in this sense.

God foreknew pharaoh's decisions, predestined him for wrath.

LJSGM said:

IF this were true, that the Lord hardened the Jews before they believed, then none of the jews would believe, but a lot did, didn't they?

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when I speak of "the Jews" , I am speaking generally , just as scripture does .

Jews (Romans 11) World (John 3:16) all (Romans 11)


the prophecy of Isaiah 6:9,10 which says as translated from the Hebrew: “Go, and you will say to this people, Hear yea hear, yet do not understand; and see, yea see, yet do not know. Stouten the heart of this people, and make its ears heavy, and make its eyes squint, lest it may see with its eyes, and with its ears it may hear, and with its heart it may understand.”
To the vast majority of the people of Israel it was not given (Matt.13:11b) to understand what Jesus was saying. It was not given to them to perceive and to know, lest they should be turning about and the Lord be healing them (Matt.13:15).

LJSGM said:

Also, I believe in predestination in a sense, in that God foreknew our decisions, so predestined our lives in this sense.

God foreknew pharaoh's decisions, predestined him for wrath.

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at least two reasons why I disagree with that view .

1. It is utterly pointless to predestine anything that is foreknown , why ? because it will happen anyway.

2. It would not convey PRE-destination , but rather , POST-destination .

also it is not Biblical.

cygnusx1 said:

at least two reasons why I disagree with that view .

1. It is utterly pointless to predestine anything that is foreknown , why ? because it will happen anyway.

2. It would not convey PRE-destination , but rather , POST-destination .

also it is not Biblical.

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it depends on what the definition of destiny is.

Romans 8

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.