How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

WaZoO · Nov 17, 2004

How is witnessing part of God's work if the book of life is already written and won't change? What good does it do to the people who aren't the elect to take away from the happiness they might have in this life before God decides to torture them by telling them that they aren't God's chosen people and they'll be roasting for eternity? Such depressing theology...

Just let the non-elect be happy in this life.

WaZoO · Nov 17, 2004

UMP said:
How?
I don't know, but God does.

That's not an answer. God can't controll everything and allow us to have free will at the same time. God can know this in the same sense that he can know 2+2=5.

GnosticBodhi · Nov 17, 2004

UMP said:
I don't know, but God does.

That doesn't make any sense. There can't be a violation of god's will (sin) if god's will controls everything.

OccamsLaser · Nov 17, 2004

UMP said:
You forget one small important fact.
ALL MANKIND IS GUILTY BEFORE GOD, ALL MANKIND IS ACCOUTABLE.

You forget two small important facts.

Genesis 6:9 and Job 1:1 describe two humans (Noah and Job) who were blameless and upright.

Received · Nov 17, 2004

The Calvinist plan undermined. All that and more, at Why I am Not a Calvinist, with excellent exegetical process at Chosen But Free. For next episodes, look foward to: corporate election, 1 John 4:8, and more!

cf. amazon.com

UMP · Nov 17, 2004

WaZoO said:
That's not an answer. God can't controll everything and allow us to have free will at the same time. God can know this in the same sense that he can know 2+2=5.

Yet the Truth remains:

Ephesians 1:4
[4] According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

UMP · Nov 17, 2004

GnosticBodhi said:
That doesn't make any sense. There can't be a violation of god's will (sin) if god's will controls everything.

The fact remains that man is accoutable and guilty before God and man is free to do what he loves and God IS in control of everything, regardless of how much "sense" it makes to man.

The real question is not as to whether man has free will, the question is, is man accountable for doing what he loves to do even when he can do nothing but sin?
Your will does not determine itself.
I can't make 100% sense of it, yet I believe and trust in a perfect, JUST God.

FadingWhispers3 · Nov 17, 2004

Calvinism is good news to the elect. But if you're not elect, why bother?

GnosticBodhi · Nov 17, 2004

UMP: Why believe it if it doesn't make sense?

jayem · Nov 17, 2004

FadingWhispers3 said:
Calvinism is good news to the elect. But if you're not elect, why bother?

I use a variation of that when believers try to proselytize to me. I tell them, respectfully, that although I'm an atheist, I'm a Calvinist atheist. If there really is a God, and it's part of his will that I should be a believer, then that will eventually happen. And if not, then it was never meant to be. They usually move on after that.

Soul_Searcher · Nov 17, 2004

Hi Brightlights,

"Even though I presently cringe at the idea of election -- how can it be refuted after reading Romans 9?"

Easy, you take Paul's words at face value, knowing that he was writing from his own knowledge and understanding, and not writing the words of Jesus. If such were the case (Calvinism) then Jesus's time here was a waste, because everyone was already chosen. Jesus spoke to all, included all, told EVERYONE how to find the divine within. With election there is no choosing, for your choice has already been made.

UMP · Nov 17, 2004

GnosticBodhi said:
UMP: Why believe it if it doesn't make sense?

Why believe?
For the same reason I believe that I have a right arm.
I simply believe and trust, by the Grace of God !!
I don't know 100% how my right arm functions, however, I believe I have one.

UMP · Nov 17, 2004

FadingWhispers3 said:
Calvinism is good news to the elect. But if you're not elect, why bother?

How do you know you're NOT one of the elect?

FadingWhispers3 · Nov 17, 2004

Ah Calvinists... they never persuade anyone because only God can choose who the elect are... but they ever preach nonetheless because it is commanded of them.

UMP · Nov 17, 2004

FadingWhispers3 said:
Ah Calvinists... they never persuade anyone because only God can choose who the elect are... but they ever preach nonetheless because it is commanded of them.

What a privilege to be used by God !!

UMP · Nov 17, 2004

jayem said:
I use a variation of that when believers try to proselytize to me. I tell them, respectfully, that although I'm an atheist, I'm a Calvinist atheist. If there really is a God, and it's part of his will that I should be a believer, then that will eventually happen. And if not, then it was never meant to be. They usually move on after that.

I must say, that is a fairly accurate statement.
Although, it does not stop me from my duty to plant seed.

1 Corinthians 3:
[7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Bradford · Nov 17, 2004

*** MOD HAT ON ***

This thread has been moved from General Apologetics to Soterology. Please remember that Rule 6 now attaches to this thread

[noco]

*** MOD HAT OFF ***

unimportantbuthisnameis · Nov 17, 2004

I, as everyone else who has, had todeal with the concpet of election upon reading Romans 9. My first approach was the Calvinstic approach, because I had not hears of any other. This approach did not fit well with other scripture (a problem faced by all Predestanationists, including Augustine of Hippo). After some consultation with several people I reread Romans 9 with the true Arminian concept (predestanation based on God's foreknowledge). Still uncomfortable with the idea of either method tried I continued to seek an answer. The thought of corporate predestanation (the thought the plan of salvation and the church were predestioned before time). The way Calvinism was refuted for me was the teachings in many more scripture and much prayer through those I didn't understand.

Beoga · Nov 17, 2004

Why does a Calvinist bother to witness? Just be glad you're one of the elect and that God's holy justice is going to punish all the people that he has chosen to punish.

why do bother to witness? does God need your help in persuading individuals? is He trying so desperatly and failing that he needs a man(or women to all you feminists out there), one of His Creations, to help him? I mean, you must believe that God is doing everything that He can to try and persuade someone to believe in Him, do you have something that God is lacking and needs so desperatly? Why bother to pray to God, I mean, again, you must believe that He is doing everything in His power to save individuals, you praying won't make him do anything more? Why not pray to the individuals that they will change?

Beoga · Nov 17, 2004

Received said:
The Calvinist plan undermined. All that and more, at Why I am Not a Calvinist, with excellent exegetical process at Chosen But Free. For next episodes, look foward to: corporate election, 1 John 4:8, and more!

cf. amazon.com

chosen but free was geislers worse book ever. horrible work, alsmost as bad as what love is this? by dave hunt

How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

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