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Points 1-4 were answered clearly in [post=36019493]post 418[/post]. Why are you pretending as though your points are not answered when they clearly have been?
The epistle is written to a believer ("To Titus, my true child in a common faith")
As stated in the above post:
The "pouring out" of the Holy Spirit is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which occurs after faith. The indwelling of the Spirit and the regeneration of the Spirit are disctinctly separate concepts.Because it is not listed as the MEANS by which the Spirit regenerates. To put it another way, the Spirit who saved us by the washing of regeneration and renewal is that same Spirit which was poured out on us richly through Jesus.
This point is simply an erroneous conclusion proceeding from the three previous errors.
As for the other two:
"But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." - John 1:12-13 (ESV)
Of course it can. Just because the two are inseparably related does not mean they are the exact same thing conceptually. It is true that all those who are born of God are adopted and vice versa. Simply stating it one way or the other in terms of grammatical order of words does not establish a chain of causality.
The error you have here is exactly the same as the error you have in Titus. You presume that the entire passage is meant to establish a clear chain of causality...right down to the choice of word order (which in addition to being fundamentally flawed is very dangerous when dealing with a translation)...when in fact it does not.
What you need this verse to say in order to prove your position was "To all who believe...He gave the right to become children of God, who were THEN born...of God." But that "then" does not exist in this passage. The phrase "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" simply refers back to the subjects of the passage in a descriptive/illustratory manner. It DOES NOT establish a chain of causality. It simply states, in like manner to passage in Titus, that those who believed and were given the right of adoption were those same people which were born of God.
False conclusion proceeding from error in #5. If adoption is not precisely synonymous with regeneration (being "born of God")...which it is not...then this conclusion is unsound.
Done (again).
Yeah that chevy almost made ya' wanna cry. They should have placed a moisture-monitoring device in the box, and fixed it as soon as the leak happened; it's rather a piece of junk now, isn't it? They buried a Prowler, let's hope it's better sealed.Ben, posts #437 and 438 are in answer to you. Someone here has been trying to confuse things.
Looking forward to your reply.
Welcome to the boards! I pray that you will be blessed and strengthened in Christ here; I do not doubt we'll be blessed by you!Kagol said:As you can see I am quite new here, so please treat me gently.
You know what? The "simplistic" approach, is the best approach. Salvation isn't very complicated; nor is Scripture, when you just sit down and read it. So many people think Christianity is a "belief"; it's not. Eternity is not what you know, it's WHO you know, and Who knows you. Jn17:3Please forgive my simplistic approach, but at this time it is the only way I can do it.
True; I've written an entire text on this, hoping to publish it soon. I have several copies in friends' hands, with the agreement that "they must red-ink any mistakes they find".The deposit is assured, it has already been made. But my receiving it depends on my believing it.
And you explained it very well. If you would like to read back a couple pages, several of my posts were dealing with this same idea. In Titus3:5-6 is a rare occurance of the word "regeneration"; Paul says, "saved us, through the washing and renewal of regeneration, through the Holy Spirit whom He poured on us richly through our Savior Jesus Christ".I have to go with faith followed by regeneration. Number 1 is what I believe the scriptures you have both used are saying. the above is just my way of explaining it.
Hi all
As you can see I am quite new here, so please treat me gently.
I have been poking around looking for something of interest and to deepen my understanding of scripture. I saw this thread and thought it would be good as I have never considered the sequence of events in regeneration/being born again.
So I came with an open mind to learn.
Please forgive my simplistic approach, but at this time it is the only way I can do it.
From having read everything here, and prayed about it, the way I see it is this;
1) Faith before regeneration;
I am in need a million pounds (salvation) and someone (God) leaves me a note [the Bible] telling me that they have deposited one million pounds for me in a certain place [Jesus] all I have to do is go and get it. Then I have a choice, go and get it [receive it into my life], or not and stay without it.
My action is going to depend on whether I believe the note [have faith], or not.
If I believe [have faith] and then I will recieve it, it will change my life for the better amd my faith will grow.
If I do not believe [do not have faith] then I won't receive it and I am still in need of that amount.
The deposit is assured, it has already been made. But my receiving it depends on my believing it.
2) Regeneration before faith;
Same scenario as above but I haven't responded to the note. Someone [Holy Spirit] comes along and forces one million pounds on me. Even if I say no, no it can't be real, He insists that I have it. I have then received it, but I still don't think it is real, so I don't do anything with it.
Conclusion;
Number 2.
Nothing changes
Where is Faith?
I have not now acquired faith, because I didn't receive it by faith. I didn't believe the note to be true, so I don't believe the money to be real or rightfully mine. Who's going to do that for me? It just doesn't happen. Someone is messing with me.
I have to go with faith followed by regeneration. Number 1 is what I see the scriptures you have both used are saying. The above is just my way of explaining it.
Eternity is not what you know, it's WHO you know, and Who knows you. Jn17:3
Proverbs 2:1-9
1 My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, 3 and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
all life comes from life .
all Types come from Types .
After it's kind , is a scriptural simple rule.
Therefore all spiritual good , is from the Holy Spirit .
There is nothing good in us.
Even what we should do we often fail to do .
And what we will to do we find not.
I disagree with groups like Calvinists; but I respect them, and consider them my saved brothers and sisters in Christ.
This is an awesome post.Kagol said:My sentiment, exactly. Also the more we know, the better we know the Who and this leads to a deeper relationship.
Quote:
Proverbs 2:1-9
1 My son, if you accept my words and store up my commands within you, 2 turning your ear to wisdom and applying your heart to understanding, 3 and if you call out for insight and cry aloud for understanding, 4 and if you look for it as for silver and search for it as for hidden treasure, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.
"Love", is a person; John4:16 says, "God is love --- he who abides in love, abides in God, and God abides in him." The point in going to Heaven, is not "rewards"; not "crowns" or "mansions" or "golden streets". The reason we want to go to Heaven, is to be with Him. A Christian singer, Kieth Green, once said: "Why do people wait for death to complete their relationship with Jesus? Why can't we be with Him, NOW, in our spirits, just as much as we will be when He returns and we're with Him physically?"
That's what I want; to walk with Him now, as close as I will be when He returns. That's what I want for my brothers and sisters.
When Jesus returns, Calvinism won't matter; we will be together with Him. If we agree on the "essence", that is Christ-in-us, then in the end everyone wins.
For He has already won our battle for us. We are bought with a price, paid for by His own blood. And we are already living forever.
This is an awesome post.
"Love", is a person; John4:16 says, "God is love --- he who abides in love, abides in God, and God abides in him." The point in going to Heaven, is not "rewards"; not "crowns" or "mansions" or "golden streets". The reason we want to go to Heaven, is to be with Him. A Christian singer, Kieth Green, once said: "Why do people wait for death to complete their relationship with Jesus? Why can't we be with Him, NOW, in our spirits, just as much as we will be when He returns and we're with Him physically?"
That's what I want; to walk with Him now, as close as I will be when He returns. That's what I want for my brothers and sisters.
When Jesus returns, Calvinism won't matter; we will be together with Him. If we agree on the "essence", that is Christ-in-us, then in the end everyone wins.
For He has already won our battle for us. We are bought with a price, paid for by His own blood. And we are already living forever.
To argue theology, one must have some "working knowledge of Scripture"; there are favorite verses used in support of each side --- it's useful to know the context, and to know both sides to understand better which is credible. Take John6 for instance. Calvinists think it asserts "God gives some to Jesus, SO they CAN believe". I've not read any other text that associates John17:6, showing that those who were given to Jesus, belonged to God at the time they were given. So --- "given", equates to "belief". Not "given BEFORE belief".
If you read back a couple pages, kagol, you will also find that in [post=36019493]this post[/post] and [post=36059328]this post[/post] (among others) I have closely examined Titus 3:5-7 and shown the error in claiming that it somehow proves faith preceeding regeneration.And you explained it very well. If you would like to read back a couple pages, several of my posts were dealing with this same idea. In Titus3:5-6 is a rare occurance of the word "regeneration"; Paul says, "saved us, through the washing and renewal of regeneration, through the Holy Spirit whom He poured on us richly through our Savior Jesus Christ".
If "whom-He-poured" reflects a quality of the REGENERATING Spirit, then that quality exists at the TIME of regeneration. Further, "saved-us", refers to "us"; regeneration-us, also; poured-us, all refer to us.
It's my contention that Acts10:43-47, in its usage of "poured" (the same exact Greek word), defines "poured" as "gifted/fell-upon-RECEIVED" Spirit. And in verse 11:17, Peter clearly states "they received the Spirit just as we did, after believing".
So --- regeneration, by the poured-on-us Spirit, through our-Savior-Jesus. He must be Savior BEFORE the Spirit is poured, and it is the poured Spirit through Whom regeneration comes.
As has been stated and explained throughout, Ben is in error on what these verses actually state. Ben has no answer to the question of WHY some people "revere Him and seek" while others do no, which is the real issue. No Calvinist has any argument with the fact that God receives men who revere and seek Him. But we understand in light of the rest of Scripture that "there are none who seek Him" and unless God first breathes life into them they will never come to Him in faith.Calvinists' biggest problem with this sequence, is that they think man is spiritually dead, and cannot believe (well, cannot believe savingly) unless God regenerates him FIRST. This conflicts Acts10:34-35, which clearly places God as "receiving those who revere Him and seek". That position is also in Heb11:6; God receives our faith, He does not cause it.
Unfortunately the text does not support such a notion. What the passage says is that "when we were dead...[God] made us alive...by grace...through faith, and that not of [our] own doing."We've had a long dispute about Eph2:5-8; to me, it reads "when we were dead in our sins, God saved us, by grace through faith". Therefore, saving-faith occurred WHEN we were dead, not AFTER.
Hi all
As you can see I am quite new here, so please treat me gently.
Already flawed example. If somebody gives you the gospel, they have given you the million ponds, not a note telling where to go & recieve it. You are gonna recieve it or not, right then & there.1) Faith before regeneration;
I am in need a million pounds (salvation) and someone (God) leaves me a note [the Bible] telling me that they have deposited one million pounds for me in a certain place [Jesus] all I have to do is go and get it. Then I have a choice, go and get it [receive it into my life], or not and stay without it.
Exactly. You either already have have been given faith or you haven't Scripture says faith is a gift, not of ourselves.My action is going to depend on whether I believe the note [have faith], or not.
"It" is belief unto salvation. Saving faith is active belief.If I believe [have faith] and then I will recieve it, it will change my life for the better amd my faith will grow.
Belief unto salvation is what the million pounds is.If I do not believe [do not have faith] then I won't receive it and I am still in need of that amount.
It isn't assured if you don't believe it is. Assurance is belief.The deposit is assured, it has already been made. But my receiving it depends on my believing it.
2) Regeneration before faith;
Same scenario as above but I haven't responded to the note. Someone [Holy Spirit] comes along and forces one million pounds on me. Even if I say no, no it can't be real, He insists that I have it. I have then received it, but I still don't think it is real, so I don't do anything with it.
For the record, I started this thread about two years ago and have since become pretty convinced of the doctrine of election and of the tennents of Calvinism.
Even though I presently cringe at the idea of election -- how can it be refuted after reading Romans 9?
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
(emphasis mine)
How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?
...I think that either we are all misinterpreting this passage, or that Paul was wrong *gasp*. What about Romans 2? Paul explains that those who live without the law are judged aside from the law. If these said people were pre-destined then why are they judged? Why is anyone judged for God's actions?
What about this passage?
9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
(2 Peter 3:9)
Or this one?
5I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."
(Luke 13:5 implies that one has a choice in the matter -- as do countless other passages)
John 3:16 anyone?
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[ 3:16 Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
(does this not imply that we have a choice?)
Why are they perishing?
They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
(2 Thes 2:10 -- because they refuse. Not because God refuses)
And again:
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
Either we are misinterpreting Paul in Romans 9, these passages are wrong, or Paul is wrong in Romans 9.
Calvinism is fully refuted. I'm very close to finishing my text, and submitting it for publication. I confess I didn't realize the argument against Universalism was so involved.
I included "Universalism" in my text on OSAS, because the same argument that defeats Calvinism, also defeats Universalism.
Calvinism claims "God elected SOME, and those whom He elected will be saved". Universalism claims "God elected ALL, and those whom He elected will be saved".
...and I've proven that God elects no one.
Yeah that chevy almost made ya' wanna cry. They should have placed a moisture-monitoring device in the box, and fixed it as soon as the leak happened; it's rather a piece of junk now, isn't it? They buried a Prowler, let's hope it's better sealed.
It may take me to the weekend to answer the post. Give your poor hands a rest.
Hah hah hah! Methinks you condemn me with faint praise.DrSteveJ said:How do you know this, Ben? I thought you believed in responsible grace not once saved always saved.
In your better moments, your Calvinism shows through.
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