How tall was Goliath?

[Jig]

It's my understanding that there is two different heights given for Goliath. Most manuscripts say he was 6 1/2 cubits tall or about 9 1/2 ft. Though a Dead Sea scroll manuscript of Samuel and two LXX manuscripts say he was only 4 cubits and a span...which translates to about 6 1/2 ft. tall.

I'm a bit confused on which is more accurate or even why there even is such a contradiction in scripture.

 

[davidoffinland]

From Finland.

A month or two ago on the Discovery channel there was a program about this. They interviewed a Jewish doctor who is treating a man who suffers from giantism and there is problems in movement and seeing because of the largeness of the bones. It also showed graves in Israel and Jordan where there was proof of people who were huge. They interviewed scholars who said Goliath could have been very tall; and experts also saying that a man who was 6 1/2 or taller could have been tall in comparsion to the average Jewish height at that time. It was a very interesting program. This TV channel comes from Norway so I don´t know if they have it in the States.

Shalom, David.

 

[davidoffinland]

From Finland.

A month or two ago on the Discovery channel there was a program about this. They interviewed a Jewish doctor who is treating a man who suffers from giantism and there is problems in movement and seeing because of the largeness of the bones. It also showed graves in Israel and Jordan where there was proof of people who were huge. They interviewed scholars who said Goliath could have been very tall; and experts also saying that a man who was 6 1/2 or taller could have been tall in comparsion to the average Jewish height at that time. It was a very interesting program. This TV channel comes from Norway so I don´t know if they have it in the States.

Shalom, David.

 

[justified]

The average height in the Bronze and Iron age, especially among oriental peoples, was significantly smaller than ours.

I can verify for you that the LXX has "four cubits and a span" as you wrote; however the Hebrew and Greek agree on on the weight of his armour being 5,000 shekels, which is nearly 60 kilos. That's insane, I don't care what his height was.

In terms of how the Hebrew is written, there's no reason why the scribe should have confused the two. None of the consonants between the two numerals "six" and "four" looks similar.

But the real fun is when you read this:

His spear shaft was like a weaver’s rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels (I Sam. 17.7)
and cf. with II Samuel 21:19=I Chron. 20:5
In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s rod.

 

[Jig]

The average height in the Bronze and Iron age, especially among oriental peoples, was significantly smaller than ours.

I can verify for you that the LXX has "four cubits and a span" as you wrote; however the Hebrew and Greek agree on on the weight of his armour being 5,000 shekels, which is nearly 60 kilos. That's insane, I don't care what his height was.

In terms of how the Hebrew is written, there's no reason why the scribe should have confused the two. None of the consonants between the two numerals "six" and "four" looks similar.

But the real fun is when you read this:

His spear shaft was like a weaver’s rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels (I Sam. 17.7)
and cf. with II Samuel 21:19=I Chron. 20:5
In another battle with the Philistines at Gob, Elhanan son of Jaare-Oregim the Bethlehemite killed Goliath the Gittite, who had a spear with a shaft like a weaver’s rod.

Thanks for the reply. Also, the weight of his armor, would of made him some kind of superhuman. This veiw still collaborates with him being a decendent of nephilium, part fallen angel, part human. I'm sure you know that Elhanan most likely killed Goliath's brother.

 

[justified]

I'm sure you know that Elhanan most likely killed Goliath's brother.

I'm much more inclined to think it's a differing scribal tradition.

And as far as descendent of the nephilim...there are issues with that idea....especially when it's stated that he is from Gath, which is Philistine.

 

[Jig]

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I'm much more inclined to think it's a differing scribal tradition.

What do you mean? Do you believe 1 Chron 20:5 is wrong?

And as far as descendent of the nephilim...there are issues with that idea....especially when it's stated that he is from Gath, which is Philistine.

Why would it matter where he was from?

 

[justified]

What do you mean? Do you believe 1 Chron 20:5 is wrong?

One of them is wrong, yes. One has to be, because they can't both be correct.

Why would it matter where he was from?

How could it not not matter? Allow me to explain briefly. These men are called "sons of Rapha" which is a very interesting attestation. The only other "Rapha" in scripture is the son of Benjamin (I Chron. 8:1-2) and this obviously not the guy. Numbers 13:33 says the Nephilim, the "decendents of anak," (or possibly, "the nephilim, and the descendents of anak come from the nephilim") were in Canaan when Israel was coming in. Several questions have to be asked at this juncture.
1 - Why weren't the nephilim killed in the flood?
2 - who the heck is Anak?

Anak is the descendent of some guy named "arba" for whom the town of Hebron in central-Judah (originally, Kiriath Arba, which means "city of Arba." Arba means "fourth." Caleb was given Hebron in the conquest, and he drove out "three descendents of Anak." (Num. 13.22; Jos. 15.13-14; 21.11; Judges 1.20).

the interesting part about Numbers 13:22 is the phrase "Hebron had been built seven years before Zoan in Egypt" which directly follows themention of the children of Anak. Zoan, properly known as "Tanis," was the the source of a prominent family of kings during the Third Intermediate Period. We are obviously missing the reason why this was important to the biblical author.

The point is that the descendents of Anak are Canaanite residents and these are the ones connected with the nephilim. The giants connected with the Philistines are Rapha. This has to be so because the Philistines were a foreign culture which invaded the Levant at the end of the Late Bronze Age.

 

[justified]

Well, I just read this quarter's issue (vol 48, #4) of the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society and what do you know -- an article was included entitled "Reconsidering the Height of Goliath" by J.D. Hays.

I am now convinced based on this article and its discussion that the best reading is 6' 9'' (four cubits and a span) rather than 9' 9'' (six cubits and a span). He explains what I missed from the text -- a little dyslexic mistake that would have been easy for a scribe to make, which explains how the reading "six cubits" arose (mainly from the "six hundred" in the next verse about the weight of the spear.

Also, he provided modern-day evidence about the armor that can be carried by people by citing how much people these days carry. I'm not so sure this is all that valid, since back in the day nutrition was so much worse. But his comment that the story is about David and Saul, not David and Goliath, should be taken to heart by those who teach this story to kids.

 

[furry001]

A worrying thing is found in this thread. No one has come forward to suggest that possibly the minority of manuscripts which have "4 cubits and a span" could be incorrect. If you want to find the truth of something, surely the majority would be more accurate than the minority? Yet the minority takes such precedent. Could someone tell me why this is?

As far as I can understand, it does not happen this way with any other historical document. The majority always outweigh the minority when searching for the truth. Yet for some reason people think that the Bible is different. Why?

 

[Raistlinorr]

Well the armor weight is only 5 000 shekel [Hebrew] = 125.883 951 708 lb,lbs, now while that is alot the average armor weight for full plate mail was around 60 lbs. Armor and things carried by troops today can weigh in at about 200 lbs. If any one here remember the wrestler Andre the Giant he had quite the impressive height and weight to him and surely could have worn armor much like Goliaths. Same with the guy they call the Big Show now 7 feet tall about 500 lbs.
And most of the time armor was not worn 24/7. For one thing it would make sleeping very uncomfortable, but generaly armor was taken off during resting periods.

Not that I'm trying to take away from the story about David and Goliath but when I think of Goliath I generaly think of Andre the Giant type guy. And personaly some one like me had better have some sort of weapong against some one his size. Preferably one that I don't have to get close to him either. So I'ld realy hate to think about adding another 2 feet to the guy.


Also about nutrition back then. If Goliath was the most (or one of the most) prized fighter they had due to his strength and stature one can only assume he got the best food and treated well. I mean it's pretty clear he scared every one who seen him, so that in it's self had an advantage for the side he was fighting on.

Edit: to add the weight of his spear head 60 shekel [Hebrew] = 1.510 607 42 lb,lbs

God bless!
Raist

 

[Dmckay]

Before, or after the beheading?

 

[gbear]

I really believe that the Bible is literal... this guy was a really big guy and the Israelites were terrified of him... David had faith and wasn't afraid because he'd killed lions and bears to protect his dad's sheep. The old king Jimmy Bible says 6 cubits... at about a foot and a half per cubit thats nine feet tall. Although the rest is interesting and I appreciate everyone's input... that's what I'm going with. Spiritual application will confront us all with giants in our lives and the fact that God is with us when we fight them.. its easy to lose focus when we are confronted with the giants of this world and we get overwhelmed etc.

God bless all that is on your hearts guys... (notice no girls have posted to this? LOL... this must be a guy thingy)

 

[Dmckay]

I really believe that the Bible is literal... this guy was a really big guy and the Israelites were terrified of him... David had faith and wasn't afraid because he'd killed lions and bears to protect his dad's sheep. The old king Jimmy Bible says 6 cubits... at about a foot and a half per cubit thats nine feet tall. Although the rest is interesting and I appreciate everyone's input... that's what I'm going with. Spiritual application will confront us all with giants in our lives and the fact that God is with us when we fight them.. its easy to lose focus when we are confronted with the giants of this world and we get overwhelmed etc.

God bless all that is on your hearts guys... (notice no girls have posted to this? LOL... this must be a guy thingy)

Excellent decision, as well as an excellent application.

 

[gbear]

Still no women??? Well, we can always ask David when we get to heaven... or even Jesus....
I will also ask Him how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

 

[John 10:10]

The learned bishop Cumberland has made it out that the scripture-cubit was above twenty-one inches (above three inches more than our half-yard) and a span was half a cubit, by which computation Goliath wanted but eight inches of four yard in height, eleven feet and four inches, a monstrous stature, and which made him very formidable, especially if he had strength and spirit proportionable.

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/MatthewHenryComplete/mhc-com.cgi?book=1sa&chapter=17#1Sa17_4

The tallest person mentioned in Scripture may have been Og king of Bashan.

Deut 3:11 For only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of giants; behold, his bedstead was a bedstead of iron; is it not in Rabbath of the children of Ammon? nine cubits was the length thereof, and four cubits the breadth of it, after the cubit of a man.


I certainly would not sell Golliath so short! Even Saul was described in Scripture as being taller than any of the Israelites (1 Sam 9:2). It would have taken quite a giant to terrify the Israelites.

Blessings