How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

Catherineanne said:

Mine too. The way not to live in hell is to live in communion with God.

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Well, a loving god would most certainly not send one of his own children to an eternity in hell for using the very brains he gave them, especially knowing how they operate.

See you there

Jazer said:

What they call the early church fathers. There were a lot of books written back then. Most of them are available for free on the internet. In fact there are books that have been hidden away in monasteries for thousands of years. The monks are scanning them into the computer and making them available for the first time. One of the first libraries they found did not even have books, they were all clay tablets and they go back 1000 years before Moses. It is interesting that they talk about people living for 1000 years before the flood. They have law books that go back before Moses. Hittite laws, the Assyrian laws, and of course the Babylonian law

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Could you quote the place where you think it provides evidence the early church had martyrs who saw the resurrection??

Oncedeceived said:

We need to seek without outward evidence for His existence and ask only to be shown how to know Him.

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*writes down*

"Ask to be shown how to know about things that there is no evidence for."

Got it.

Oncedeceived said:

I wish I knew the answer to why some people say that they are sincerely searching for God and that they have no answer. I can only use my experience in my own life and that does nothing for yours or others that are searching. I know in my case, God gave me a poke so to speak in when I was in a bad way when I was fifteen. I really didn't get all religious or anything, I just knew that something had happened and I thought it was God. For years I lived my life and didn't give God to much thought...if any, I don't remember really thinking about it much. I then began to feel little pulls of God thoughts and became a Christian, joined a church and loved it.
I just didn't understand though how some people just had so much faith and were so certain of God's existence. I didn't have that. So after a time I began to think that the all roads lead to God was the way to go. I studied other religions for many years. So I wasn't thinking Christian God in particular at this point but a friend of mine said something that just hit me like it was right from God. I just felt it really was and it was the Christian God. So I told God that I really wanted Him to show me that He was God and the only God. He has blown me away with everything He has revealed to me since then.

So as you can see, this is just my experience, so I don't know what God wants from you or anyone else before He reveals himself. I just know that in the early years I wanted to know God but He didn't reveal Himself to me then. It was many years later and a complete letting go before He revealed Himself to me.

This is another thing as well, God reveals certain facets of Himself to different people so it is interesting to see that people have very differing view of Him. I know that people want to intellectualize God but it seems when you just let Him in without restrictions it works the best.

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(bolding mine)

I wonder why it is that god seems to reveal himself to people when they are in a "bad spot" in their lives, so to speak. It seems to me that this happens far more often than not, and I wonder what the reason for this is. I also wonder had I ever been in a truly bad spot in my own life, if I would've had some kind of spiritual "experience." That's not to say that I haven't had what I consider to be hard times in my life, but I realize that I've had it better than a lot of other folks.

AV1611VET said:

God didn't "give" Adam & Eve the Tree of Knowledge -- in fact, He did just the opposite.

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Oh so he put the fruit tree someplace other then Eden? where?

Adam & Eve were not "children" -- they were full-grown married adults.

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Who were created without knowledge of good or evil, thus are children and are you saying that they are gods? because they would have to be in order to show the analogy false. After all its relative. You must not understand what an analogy is.

Adam & Eve knew full-well the consequences of their actions.

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They were told what the consequences were, but not given the capasity to understand it. Only afterword did they gain that. Seems a bit late if you ask me.

MoonLancer said:

Oh so he put the fruit tree someplace other then Eden? where?
Who were created without knowledge of good or evil, thus are children and are you saying that they are gods? because they would have to be in order to show the analogy false. After all its relative. You must not understand what an analogy is.
They were told what the consequences were, but not given the capasity to understand it. Only afterword did they gain that. Seems a bit late if you ask me.

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It was all part of the plan. How else was god to show his grace and mercy if man had not fallen?



(I've been hanging around here far too long, it seems lol)

Insane_Duck said:

What evidence do you have that they were martyred at all? Do you have anyone that you've confirmed had seen the "risen lord" and then martyred themselves?

40 years of telephone in the illiterate back alleys of the middle east is a long time. Especially with all of the Messiahs floating around at the time.

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Here is info on that:

Link
http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/index.php?option=com_custom_content&task=view&id=5135
Question;
The other day in a discussion with a friend, a statement was made that the disciple Peter was crucified upside down. I have heard this before, but after searching through my Bible I cannot find any reference to this event. The person I was studying with has since called me asking where this can be found and I would like to give her the correct answer. When you get a chance could you please tell me if this was indeed Peter’s fate and in what text this came from.
Answer:
The tradition that Peter was executed began with the reference to the form of his death in John chapter 21, in which Jesus told Peter, "I assure you: When you were young, you would tie your belt and walk wherever you wanted. But when you grow older, you will stretch out your hands and someone else will tie you and carry you where dou don't want to go." John reported, (probably after Peter died) "He said this to signify by what kind of death he would glorify God." So the idea that Peter was crucified (stretch out your hands) came from John, but this does not include the location or the physical position of his crucifixion.
Eusebius (AD 325) claimed in his Ecclesiastical History that all the apostles were martyred except for John . The evidence for some of these is very spotty, but the number, variety and quality of testimony to the martyrdom of Peter and Paul in Rome is sufficient that I think we can reasonably say that most likely this is how they died.
The early church fathers are unanimous in claiming that Peter died in Rome, by crucifixion, during the persecution of Nero in AD 64. As for crucifixion upside down, that is also testified to, but the evidence is weaker for this particular form of crucifixion. The apocryphal Acts of Peter is the earliest reference to crucifixion of Peter upside down. The earliest reference to the martyrdom of Peter comes from the letter of Clement of Rome (about AD 90). He said, in his Letter to the Corinthians, "Let us take the noble examples of our own generation. Through jealousy and envy the greatest and most just pillars of the Church were persecuted, and came even unto death… Peter, through unjust envy, endured not one or two but many labours, and at last, having delivered his testimony, departed unto the place of glory due to him." Not much there as to the means or location of his death, but that it was an execution is clearly implied. Ignatius, in his Letter to the Romans about AD 110 claimed that Peter was bishop of Rome. Irenaeus of Lyon, about AD 180, agrees that Peter served in Rome. Tertullian, about AD 195 declared "But if you are near Italy, you have Rome, where authority is at hand for us too. What a happy church that is, on which the apostles poured out their whole doctrine with their blood; where Peter had a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned with the death of John (the Baptist, ie. by being beheaded). Dionysius of Corinth, also about AD 200 "You (Pope Soter) have also, by your very admonition, brought together the planting that was made by Peter and Paul at Rome and at Corinth; for both of them alike planted in our Corinth and taught us; and both alike, teaching similarly in Italy, suffered martyrdom at the same time" When Eusebius reported the crucifixion of Peter and the beheading of Paul in Ecclestiacial History, he was simply passing along a tradition which has been the unanimous opinion of the church for two hundred years.
Tradition has that Peter's body is contained in a crypt below St. Peter's Basilica in Rome. This is actually not all that far-fetched a claim. In fact, when the sarcophygous claimed to contain his body was studied in the 1960's (Margherita Guarducci, 1963-1968) the evidence supported that it was of a man about 60 years old who died in the first century AD. I certainly would not base my faith on this being his body, and besides, it is not clear the significance to a Christian to have the actual remains of Peter.
In conclusion, we can reasonably conclude that Peter was in fact crucified in Rome. As for his crucifixion upside down, this is much more weakly attested to in only one ancient source which is probably much less reliable that Clement, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Eusebius and many others.
John Oakes

selfinflikted said:

(bolding mine)

I wonder why it is that god seems to reveal himself to people when they are in a "bad spot" in their lives, so to speak. It seems to me that this happens far more often than not, and I wonder what the reason for this is. I also wonder had I ever been in a truly bad spot in my own life, if I would've had some kind of spiritual "experience." That's not to say that I haven't had what I consider to be hard times in my life, but I realize that I've had it better than a lot of other folks.

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I think that God is a comforter and that He comes to us when we need Him, even when we aren't prepared. He didn't reveal Himself at that time though. I thought it was comfort coming from God (maybe) but He didn't reveal Himself until years later and at that time I was not going through anything traumatic.

I am glad that you haven't had any real bad things in your life.

Non sequitur said:

*writes down*

"Ask to be shown how to know about things that there is no evidence for."

Got it.

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Nah, don't think so.

Oncedeceived said:

I wasn't thinking Christian God in particular at this point but a friend of mine said something that just hit me like it was right from God. I just felt it really was and it was the Christian God. So I told God that I really wanted Him to show me that He was God and the only God. He has blown me away with everything He has revealed to me since then.

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That is pretty much it. God gives us understanding, He reveals things to us. The close we are to God the more freely the flow from Him to us. He also freely gives us comfort and peace. People out in the world are drinking and drugging and they are still miserable mixed up and confused. All they are doing is destroying themselves for no good reason. With God we don't need any of that.

Jazer said:

People out in the world are drinking and drugging and they are still miserable mixed up and confused. All they are doing is destroying themselves for no good reason. With God we don't need any of that.

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I drink and am not miserable or confused.

I'm doing quite well

MoonLancer said:

Oh so he put the fruit tree someplace other then Eden? where?

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How did "give" become "put"?

Does that Arab phone ring that much?

I put money in my wallet, I give money to others.

MoonLancer said:

Who were created without knowledge of good or evil, thus are children

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Children aren't created like Adam & Eve were created -- believe me.

MoonLancer said:

and are you saying that they are gods?

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No, the serpent-beast told them they would be like that:

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

MoonLancer said:

They were told what the consequences were, but not given the capasity to understand it.

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Were you there?

MoonLancer said:

Only afterword did they gain that. Seems a bit late if you ask me.

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I don't think they knew:

1. They were going to be expelled from the Garden.
2. Adam was going to have to work against thorns and thistles.
3. Eve would bear children in pain.

... if that's what you're talking about.

So what?

If that would have been recorded, then you guys would be here saying they didn't know what that meant ... and so on down the line.

But the fact of the matter is, it's you that don't know; but you're trying to blame God.

Jazer said:

That is pretty much it. God gives us understanding, He reveals things to us. The close we are to God the more freely the flow from Him to us. He also freely gives us comfort and peace. People out in the world are drinking and drugging and they are still miserable mixed up and confused. All they are doing is destroying themselves for no good reason. With God we don't need any of that.

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Exactly. I used to feel the Bible was rather boring and uninspiring, until God started to use it to reveal things about Him. Now I understand how it has become to be known as the Living Word.

AV1611VET said:

How did "give" become "put"?

Does that Arab phone ring that much?

I put money in my wallet, I give money to others.

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I just gave my drink on the coffee table.

Makes sense...

Jazer said:

That is pretty much it. God gives us understanding, He reveals things to us. The close we are to God the more freely the flow from Him to us. He also freely gives us comfort and peace. People out in the world are drinking and drugging and they are still miserable mixed up and confused. All they are doing is destroying themselves for no good reason. With God we don't need any of that.

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So if I were to isolate 3 Christians and asked them specific questions about God, do you think they would be consistent with each other?

Oncedeceived said:

In conclusion, we can reasonably conclude that Peter was in fact crucified in Rome.

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I know you didn't ask, but I personally don't believe Peter ever set foot in Rome.

1 Peter 5:13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

Insane_Duck said:

"Athiests and Agnostics in the study did better." I didn't take the study. I thought it was implied, but if you need clarification the only thing you need to do is ask.

So do you concede the point?

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Combined with the data on materialists obtained here, this study only shows that the ability to recall certain verses faster than others is a poor indicator of cognitive reach.

Insane_Duck said:

40 years of telephone in the illiterate back alleys of the middle east is a long time. Especially with all of the Messiahs floating around at the time.

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Irrelevant. Information was endowed, not conventionalk obtained.

Insane_Duck said:

How do you back up these standards?

I could have the same standards with FSM instead of the bible. Then I would be "right" about everything as well.

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You could. You could also do the same thing with the archived records of Babe Ruth. Actual research resumes when your recital ends.

Greg1234 said:

You could. You could also do the same thing with the archived records of Babe Ruth. Actual research resumes when your recital ends.

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I like how a majority of the "research" is "personal research" and that it can't be shown or demonstrated.