How should we read Paul?

Righttruth · Mar 12, 2016

jerry kelso said:
righttruth,

1. Deuteronomy 27:26; Galatians 3:10

2. Deuteronomy 27:26: Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say Amen.

3. Galatians 3:10: For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

4. First of all, the law of Moses came because of transgressions till the seed should come Galatians 3:19 the angels were the mediator of this covenant.

5. The law of Moses is a whole unit and if one breaks one law he breaks all the law. James 2:10.
It is not the new covenant. Hebrews 6-7. So when you try to make the old covenant the new covenant with the exception about Christ death and resurrection.

You are wrong. Jews continue to be unenlightened to the extent that they think animal sacrifices should continue and reject the sacrifice of Jesus. Rituals and animal sacrifices are no longer required in the new covenant.

6. Deuteronomy 27:26; the immediate context was in reference to the specific laws of Moses that had a specific judgement. Cursed be the he that removeth his neighbour's landmark,, cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way; cursed by he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless and widow etc.

7. Israel had to keep these laws and if they did they had a specific blessing and if not they had a specific curse. If a child sassed their parent they were to be stoned to death. If they committed adultery they were to be stoned to death. There is no judgement for a christian in this manner which was actually a mandatory judgement.

So you think persons with the new covenant can indulge in all sinful activities listed in no. 7? If you think it is, you are under the wrath of God even under the new covenant. One may not be stoned to death, but he will not enter the kingdom of God for sure.

8. Because the 2 covenants are different in the overall picture and Jesus teachings were under the old law is why there are differences especially of Paul and his ministry to the gentiles.

No wonder you like Paul with goodies that are against the way of Jesus.

9. The law was to be forever for the jews because there whole life was the law. However, it was to be under the new covenant which was offered only to the jews in Jeremiah 31:31-32 because the gentiles didn't have a covenant.

It is same for both Jews and Gentiles. Of course, God would love if Jews come to Him through Jesus because they were His chosen people.

10. Culturally, the jews are still jews and are to live like jews but they are not to do them under the old ethic concerning to be saved. They had to do these commandments or be cursed. The judaizers were always mad at the apostles for preaching the death and resurrection as well as the leaders and this is why there was so much trouble in the early church. The church was mostly jews from Christ ministry but many wanted to be legalistic and still under the old ethic and not the new covenant ethic. This is why they made issues out of circumcision. Physical circumcision was the sign of the law but it could not save but they had to legalistically do it or be cursed under the law of Moses and to be justified by keeping the Mosaic law.
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but that shalt in any wise bury him that day: (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord they God giveth thee for an inheritance. This is specific so the land would not be defiled. The old covenant talks about the land sinning because of the specific sins of Israel.

Of course, Judaizers wanted the letter of the Law to continue along with rituals which Paul opposed. Paul was right on this account.

11. Galatians 3:13-14 the curse was to be lifted so the blessings of Abraham could come upon the gentiles.

Blessings will not come even under the new covenant for sinful activities that were enumerated in the old.

12. You have two different contexts because of two different contexts. You are trying to justify yourself by the law mentality of keeping the commandment according to the old ethic.

Adultery and murder are sin under old. It is even sinful to think of them under the new. Do you realize the big difference here.

Spiritual principles of the old covenants can be applied because God wants us to be blessed. Moral law was in every age and within itself is always true. Cain killed Abel and that was a sin but there was no mandatory law of stoning even though the conscience of the people knew it was wrong and would be gunning for him and this is why he asked God for protection.

Stoning to death may have disappeared, but condemnation still continued.

4. God's blessings are always on his children who are obedient. The contexts are different under the old covenant law and the new covenant law.

No obedience to God under the OT and now in the NT continues. It is more difficult to remain obedient in the new covenant. Jesus did not come to issue licence to sin and get pardon next.

15. Under the law of Moses if they performed the covenant he wouldn't let any sickness come upon them. There is no absolute promise of this under the new covenant even though it is possible by faith and even then that is a possibility but not a probability. There are plenty of christians who are being obedient and still get sick because of the fall of man and because it is not a mandatory promise of God. In this respect they just had to do the commandment in order not to be sick.

Sickness is the result of the fall of man and it has continued even now. Relief may be sought differently now.

17. Jesus mission was concerning Israel first concerning the KOH and the KOG under the Mosaic law and this was not a message to the church in this context. Jesus came to seek and save that which was lost and the two things lost was what Adam and Eve lost when they sinned and that was the KOH because they had rule over all the garden including the animals etc. Because they sinned they lost the KOG in its spiritual aspect because they were sinless before the Lord. The spiritual aspect was restored at the cross but the physical kingdom reign was not because of Israel's rejection of Christ and not abiding by the law etc. The physical kingdom reign is in connection with the restoration of all things and Peter mentioned this in Acts 3:19. The restoration and the kingdom reign will happen in the future and this is what the millennial kingdom Revelations 20 is about and KOG physically where God will be all in all. 1 Corinthians 15:28.

A true believer follows Jesus, and he will have no time to speculate KOH or KOG or what not! That is for arm-chair Christians. Jesus demands workers.

18. I will stop here and say if one doesn't distinguish the two different covenants in proper perspective they run the risk of being legalistic, condemning and failing and defeated and they will misunderstand the issue of sin and what God has accomplished and is trying to teach us through the different ages because his goal is that eventually to never have a conscience of sin etc. Jerry kelso

No use dreaming of concepts of inaction.

Righttruth · Mar 12, 2016

jerry kelso said:
righttruth,
You do not believe the whole bible is inerrant and you do not agree with the 12 apostles or Peter's books either.
You say that you understand my perspective and accuse it being against the words of Jesus but can give no proof. Anyone can accuse and cast doubts about what one says but if you can't back it up then it is just worthless accusations and is not credible. Jerry kelso

This logic generates when man-made canon is accepted and adopted blindly.

Righttruth · Mar 12, 2016

redleghunter said:
Interesting response.

You know well I was referring to the apostles and canonical prophets of the OT.

Did they perform miracles of Satan or God?

Miracles don't interest a person who wants to follow Jesus.

Righttruth · Mar 12, 2016

2 know him said:
Proof the early Church forsook Paul.

Paul to Timothy: "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me".
(2Timothy 1:15)

So who was wrong: Asia for forsaking Paul, or Paul, which caused all of Asia to forsake him?

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia" (Revelations 1:4). And to the first of the churches in Revelations Christ states: "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Revelations 2:2) In light of the fact that all Asia forsook Paul, why weren't the churches of Asia rebuked? Instead, it becomes clear that John, or should we say Christ, is referencing Paul: when we scrutinized Paul's words in 2 Timothy 1:15 with Revelations 2:2.

Some will try and tell you that Revelations was written between 90-110 A.D. to a different church, but the book of Revelations clearly refutes those claims: "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." (Revelations 17:9,10) John wrote revelations under Nero, the 6th Emperor of Rome, the city on 7 hills; Paul was put to death by Nero in 67 A.D.: 2 years before Nero took his own life.

According to Revelations 11:1,2 John wrote Revelations in the Spring of 67 A.D. 42 months before the destruction of the Second Temple:
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The temple in heaven will never be tread under foot by the Gentiles and if this was a reference to a third temple, how could John have measured it and if it was in a vision of future events, surely John would have mention that the temple was rebuilt, seeing the second one would have just been destroyed. In any case, Revelations 17:10 clearly confirms that John wrote the book during the reign of the 6th Emperor of Rome and he Reigned while the temple was still erected. So it is absolutely clear that John wrote to the same followers who rejected Paul and they were not reprimanded for it, on the contrary, if anything they were commended for it. And BTW, 2 of the churches walked perfect before God, but how could that be, if they must accept Paul's words as being infallible: as is proclaimed of his words today.

I also believe that Revelation was written just before the destruction of the second temple.

nomadictheist · Mar 12, 2016

Righttruth said:
This is equivalent to the OT belief that it is just OK with rituals. That is all what is needed: going through its exercise though the heart may be away from God. Even when one is in the Vine, without bearing fruit will invite destruction. Please read John 15.

No, it's not. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Rituals =/= faith. That statement is nothing short of ludicrous.

Do you know what it means to bear fruit? Bearing fruit is evidence of your faith, not vice versa.

No one can claim privilege quoting precedent incidents. God deals justly each case based on merits. You and I are not thief or David.

No, God deals justly and graciously with all of us based on the sacrifice once for all of His Son, which satisfied His justice. How He deals with us has nothing to do with our merits. It's not "claiming special privilege," it's showing from the Bible that good works don't save you.

That is not the end of the story; it is the beginning for a transformed life after repentance. Continuation of sin will not fetch salvation automatically.

That is the end of the story according to Jesus. Either you believe or you don't.

As far as continuing in sin without repentance, nobody here is making that argument, and neither does Paul. The fact that you would even accuse him of this shows your ignorance of his writings. As I said before, faith alone saves. Good works are evidence of that faith.

Why then so many sects and thousands of denominations each at the throat of the other!

There are denominations for the same reason there was a need for a Jerusalem council in the early church. People are people, and our struggle with sin is ongoing even after salvation.

However, most denominations are not "at the throat of each other." Exclamation points do not make your point any more valid.

We cannot escape our responsibility to do good that pleases Him no matter how insignificant it might be.

Matthew 3
10 The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 5
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

The Rich Young Ruler
16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
18 Then he *said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
20 The young man *said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?"
21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.
23 And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
24 "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."

Nobody here is claiming that we "escape the responsibility." I'll say again what I've said before, our good works do not save us. They are only evidence of faith, because they are evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in our lives. Without Jesus, we can do nothing. Claiming merit of our own is taking credit for God's work in us.

Please quote the verses.

You just quoted some of them. The rich young ruler who kept "all these commandments since he was a child" didn't trust Jesus' word enough to sell his livelihood and give it to the poor. No amount of good works would save him. Only full and complete belief in Jesus was enough.

Then there's...

"Unless your righteousness surpasses the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

How is that possible? The scribes and the pharisees were the most righteous people of that day, according to any righteousness that man could have in himself. They kept the law of Moses better than any other Jew. Jesus then, in the sermon on the mount (I won't post it here, since it's 3 chapters of the Bible), goes on to explain that even an evil thought is breaking the law. Thus, everyone is guilty of breaking the law countless times, and must depend on Jesus' blood rather than our merits, or even Jesus + our merits.

Now answer the question...

What does it mean to rely on the works of the law?

nomadictheist · Mar 12, 2016

Righttruth said:
Yes, Law itself is not a curse. Breaking of the Law invites curse. That is OT standard. Jesus fulfilled the Law and went beyond that in Spirit. He put an end to animal sacrifices by His supreme sacrifice. Now it is no longer the letter of the Law and rituals but keeping up with the spirit of the Law. Fulfillment was not to abolish it but to maintain the spirit behind it.

You didn't answer the question. What does it mean to rely on the works of the law?

Extraneous · Mar 12, 2016

Righttruth said:
Miracles don't interest a person who wants to follow Jesus.

I wouldn't say that's true. I was interested in Jesus and looked for miracles, but didnt find them. I did however find the Word, which lead me to see that even that is a miracle. Just to see that i don't need healed, that strengthened my faith and helped me see that God loves me. In the end, after i stopped being angry at God for not healing me, i saw that He still loved me, and that's all that truly matters. Thats the healing i really need. Gods grace and his spirit guiding me, that's what i need most.Scripture showed me that miracles are not needed to be spiritual. Its better to look toward heaven than earthly things. Paul says that things on the earth are temporary, so any miracle healing or anything like that is only temporary, but things in heaven are eternal.

Extraneous · Mar 12, 2016

2 Co 4:18 while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

nomadictheist · Mar 12, 2016

2 know him said:
I posted this on another thread, but thought I would repost it here: as this is more inline with my post.

Paul says: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good..." (Romans 13:1-4)

Jesus stated: "But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony "against" them". (Matthew 10:17,18)

You are obviously twisting Paul's words. Romans 13 is about being obedient to governing authorities, which is in harmony with Jesus' statement:

"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do..."

Here is Paul's complete statement:
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

When the context is taken, you clearly see that Paul is talking about submitting to your ruling authorities and "rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

Paul himself was persecuted by people in positions of power. It is ludicrous to think that his statement means that you will never be persecuted by authorities.

"But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil." (Romans 13:4)

Jesus states that if you don't forgive men their sins, God won't forgive you yours; yet Paul gives men an exemption to kill others, against Jesus teachings on forgiveness.

Jesus did not abolish the government by saying this. These are personal instructions. Are you saying that if a Christian is appointed a judge in civil law, he should just dismiss every case out of hand? The command to the Christian to forgive does not abrogate the authority of the law to punish.

Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Still think there are no contradictions in the bible?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Forgiveness is a sign of a repentant heart. Unforgiveness is a sign of an unrepentant heart.

Isn't forgiveness a work? Yes, it is. Jesus stated: if you don't forgive, you won't be forgiven.
Are we saved by our works? Absolutely, according to Jesus we are, unless you don't believe Jesus.

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Matthew 16:27)

Interesting that Jesus here says "reward." Tell me, is eternal damnation a "reward?"

There are many different scriptures that indicate there will be varying reward in everlasting life. Reward and salvation/damnation are not the same.

Paul stated: "I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some". (1Corinthians 9:22) Can you imagine Jesus making the statement above? No, Jesus called men to repent, to turn from their sins to do good. It becomes clear why Paul made some of the statements he did, when one considers his words above.

Paul also called all men to repentance and belief. This is why Peter says that Paul's writings can be hard to understand and unstable people twist them to their own destruction.

If you look at how Paul conducted himself on his missionary journeys, you can see what he meant. He interacted with people according to their situation in life. To the scholars at the Areopagus, he spoke as a scholar. But he still proclaimed the gospel. To the jailer, he spoke as a commoner. But he still proclaimed the gospel. To the Jews, he spoke as a Jew. But he still proclaimed the gospel.

Extraneous · Mar 12, 2016

nomadictheist said:
You are obviously twisting Paul's words. Romans 13 is about being obedient to governing authorities, which is in harmony with Jesus' statement:

"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do..."

Here is Paul's complete statement:
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

When the context is taken, you clearly see that Paul is talking about submitting to your ruling authorities and "rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

Paul himself was persecuted by people in positions of power. It is ludicrous to think that his statement means that you will never be persecuted by authorities.

Jesus did not abolish the government by saying this. These are personal instructions. Are you saying that if a Christian is appointed a judge in civil law, he should just dismiss every case out of hand? The command to the Christian to forgive does not abrogate the authority of the law to punish.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Forgiveness is a sign of a repentant heart. Unforgiveness is a sign of an unrepentant heart.

Interesting that Jesus here says "reward." Tell me, is eternal damnation a "reward?"

There are many different scriptures that indicate there will be varying reward in everlasting life. Reward and salvation/damnation are not the same.

Paul also called all men to repentance and belief. This is why Peter says that Paul's writings can be hard to understand and unstable people twist them to their own destruction.

If you look at how Paul conducted himself on his missionary journeys, you can see what he meant. He interacted with people according to their situation in life. To the scholars at the Areopagus, he spoke as a scholar. But he still proclaimed the gospel. To the jailer, he spoke as a commoner. But he still proclaimed the gospel. To the Jews, he spoke as a Jew. But he still proclaimed the gospel.

I agree. Some people however twist Romans 13 in another direction. They think t means we must submit to the Catholic Church, or that the Church must rule the world. Neither one however is what Paul teaches in Romans 13.

Righttruth · Mar 12, 2016

Strong in Him said:
Nothing can contain God; the Bible reveals God, his character, his works and his will. The Bible is the written word of the Lord and written revelation of God.
Yet you reject some of Paul's writings, which are in the Word of God; writings which are by someone who was God's chosen one and a saint, (your words.) You reject these, while being quite willing to accept teachings from books that the church does not recognise as being inspired by the Holy Spirit - but it's ok, because "the Holy Spirit" has told you that you can read them. Yet in spite of all the things you say about Paul, you are still willing to accept some of his teachings.

Bible reveals some attributes of God. The only written word of God is the Ten Commandments. Even the original of this got lost. The final revelations of God came through Jesus. Therefore, His words are of paramount importance. All other writings are secondary, and they should complement them. Anything that deviates should be rejected. If something is not even supported from other sources, the concept should be suspected and better discarded.

Like I said, how do you know what to trust? How do you know when you're reading the Bible - assuming you do - that you can trust it, that that is God's will, promise, teaching etc for YOU and guidance about how he wants you to live? It must be very unsettling; not knowing. For example, the NT says that the Holy Spirit assures us that we are children of God, Romans 8:16, that he is a deposit guaranteeing our future inheritance, 2 Corinthians 5:5, that nothing can separate us from the love of God, Romans 8:38-39. This is God's assurance to YOU. How do you know that this is true if you don't trust Paul, the person who wrote those words? How do you accept his teaching about the resurrection, and our resurrection bodies, if you don't believe Paul or aren't sure you can trust him? If you can't; that's sad. It means you could read the words "nothing can separate you from the Love of God", and think "I can't trust that - because I don't trust Paul" and spend the whole of your life wondering if anything CAN separate you from God's love. Or his marvellous passages about grace, the cross and being reconciled to God; how do you trust those and not believe the person who wrote them?

I don't need sugar coated candies of Paul to love Christ. That is not enough. We need to keep His commandments and cultivate the fruit of the Spirit.

nomadictheist · Mar 12, 2016

2 know him said:
Proof the early Church forsook Paul.

Paul to Timothy: "This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me".
(2Timothy 1:15)

So who was wrong: Asia for forsaking Paul, or Paul, which caused all of Asia to forsake him?

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia" (Revelations 1:4). And to the first of the churches in Revelations Christ states: "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Revelations 2:2) In light of the fact that all Asia forsook Paul, why weren't the churches of Asia rebuked? Instead, it becomes clear that John, or should we say Christ, is referencing Paul: when we scrutinized Paul's words in 2 Timothy 1:15 with Revelations 2:2.

Some will try and tell you that Revelations was written between 90-110 A.D. to a different church, but the book of Revelations clearly refutes those claims: "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." (Revelations 17:9,10) John wrote revelations under Nero, the 6th Emperor of Rome, the city on 7 hills; Paul was put to death by Nero in 67 A.D.: 2 years before Nero took his own life.

According to Revelations 11:1,2 John wrote Revelations in the Spring of 67 A.D. 42 months before the destruction of the Second Temple:
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

The temple in heaven will never be tread under foot by the Gentiles and if this was a reference to a third temple, how could John have measured it and if it was in a vision of future events, surely John would have mention that the temple was rebuilt, seeing the second one would have just been destroyed. In any case, Revelations 17:10 clearly confirms that John wrote the book during the reign of the 6th Emperor of Rome and he Reigned while the temple was still erected. So it is absolutely clear that John wrote to the same followers who rejected Paul and they were not reprimanded for it, on the contrary, if anything they were commended for it. And BTW, 2 of the churches walked perfect before God, but how could that be, if they must accept Paul's words as being infallible: as is proclaimed of his words today.

Your unsupported opinion. The passage in Revelation does not refer to Paul. Paul is also writing of those that turned away because they were ashamed of his arrest and imprisonment, as you can see from the context.

Also, you ignore the fact that Revelation was written from the Isle of Patmos:
"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The Isle of Patmos was a place where Romans sent their prisoners, and therefore not very connected to the outside world. John's visions were recorded and written down without any knowledge of what was going on in the Roman empire outside, so he wouldn't have known if the temple that he'd known in his day was already torn down.

As far as Rev. 11 referring to the destruction of Herod's temple, I suppose, then, you also have an explanation for the two witnesses that were prophesied? Where were the two people who prophesied at this time, who were killed by their enemies, and who came back to life and were called up to heaven, and it was seen by many people?

2 know him · Mar 12, 2016

nomadictheist said:
You are obviously twisting Paul's words. Romans 13 is about being obedient to governing authorities, which is in harmony with Jesus' statement:

"Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do..."

Here is Paul's complete statement:
"Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor."

When the context is taken, you clearly see that Paul is talking about submitting to your ruling authorities and "rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."

Paul himself was persecuted by people in positions of power. It is ludicrous to think that his statement means that you will never be persecuted by authorities.

Jesus did not abolish the government by saying this. These are personal instructions. Are you saying that if a Christian is appointed a judge in civil law, he should just dismiss every case out of hand? The command to the Christian to forgive does not abrogate the authority of the law to punish.

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Forgiveness is a sign of a repentant heart. Unforgiveness is a sign of an unrepentant heart.

Interesting that Jesus here says "reward." Tell me, is eternal damnation a "reward?"

There are many different scriptures that indicate there will be varying reward in everlasting life. Reward and salvation/damnation are not the same.

Paul also called all men to repentance and belief. This is why Peter says that Paul's writings can be hard to understand and unstable people twist them to their own destruction.

If you look at how Paul conducted himself on his missionary journeys, you can see what he meant. He interacted with people according to their situation in life. To the scholars at the Areopagus, he spoke as a scholar. But he still proclaimed the gospel. To the jailer, he spoke as a commoner. But he still proclaimed the gospel. To the Jews, he spoke as a Jew. But he still proclaimed the gospel.

Let's try dealing with one issue at a time and expanding on that post-by-post, and not having 100 issues that are all over the place.

No man can serve 2 masters, you cannot serve God and a human... You twist Jesus' words, all Jesus said was that since Caesars image was on the coin it is proof it is his and if it is his, give it back to him, but Jesus in no way answered the question by saying to pay taxes and support the evil that government does. Jesus clearly said HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE. You cannot serve two governments: the government of God and the Government of man.

1Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

God clearly stated to Samuel that by having a man as a king the children of Israel rejected God that HE should NOT Rule over them. Paul contradicted not only Jesus' words, but Samuel's also. You don't seem to care at all about Jesus' words being contradicted, all you seem to care about is protecting your belief that the bible is God's word and to BLINDLY go on trying to embrace the parts you want to protect, against the things you reject.

Extraneous · Mar 12, 2016

2 know him said:
Let's try dealing with one issue at a time and expanding on that post-by-post, and not having 100 issues that are all over the place.

No man can serve 2 masters, you cannot serve God and a human... You twist Jesus' words, all Jesus said was that since Caesars image was on the coin it is proof it is his and if it is his, give it back to him, but Jesus in no way answered the question by saying to pay taxes and support the evil that government does. Jesus clearly said HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE. You cannot serve two governments: the government of God and the Government of man.

1Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

God clearly stated to Samuel that by having a man as a king the children of Israel rejected God that HE should NOT Rule over them. Paul contradicted not only Jesus' words, but Samuel's also. You don't seem to care at all about Jesus' words being contradicted, all you seem to care about is protecting your belief that the bible is God's word and to BLINDLY go on trying to embrace the parts you want to protect, against the things you reject.

Its not about serving an evil government, its about submitting to God. Its not about following a government if they lead us from obeying God, and its not about following any government at all. Look a Israel under Babylon in the time of Jeremiah. Look at Israel under Rome in the time of Christ. ITs actually about submitting to God.

We seek the kingdom now however and we are not citizens of this world anymore. Our citizenship is in heaven, ot earth. To follow politicians is to commit spiritual adultery against God. To resist the government authority is to resist God as well.Neither Christ or any of his disciples resisted Rome. They bore their cross and sought after the kingdom only. They were no longer citizens of either Rome or Israel. Their Zion was a spiritual mountain, not an earthly mountain. and so it is with us as well..

Jeremiah27:2 “Thus says the Lord to me: ‘Make for yourselves bonds and yokes, and put them on your neck, 3 and send them to the king of Edom, the king of Moab, the king of the Ammonites, the king of Tyre, and the king of Sidon, by the hand of the messengers who come to Jerusalem to Zedekiah king of Judah. 4 And command them to say to their masters, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel—thus you shall say to your masters: 5 ‘I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are on the ground, by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed proper to Me.

6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant; and the beasts of the field I have also given him to serve him. 7 So all nations shall serve him and his son and his son’s son, until the time of his land comes; and then many nations and great kings shall make him serve them. 8 And it shall be, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation I will punish,’ says the Lord, ‘with the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.

9 Therefore do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers, or your sorcerers, who speak to you, saying, “You shall not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they prophesy a lie to you, to remove you far from your land; and I will drive you out, and you will perish. 11 But the nations that bring their necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let them remain in their own land,’ says the Lord, ‘and they shall till it and dwell in it.’”’”

Extraneous · Mar 12, 2016

That is what paul is teaching Romans 13

Extraneous · Mar 12, 2016

"in" Romans 13

2 know him · Mar 12, 2016

nomadictheist said:
Your unsupported opinion. The passage in Revelation does not refer to Paul. Paul is also writing of those that turned away because they were ashamed of his arrest and imprisonment, as you can see from the context.

Also, you ignore the fact that Revelation was written from the Isle of Patmos:
"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."

The Isle of Patmos was a place where Romans sent their prisoners, and therefore not very connected to the outside world. John's visions were recorded and written down without any knowledge of what was going on in the Roman empire outside, so he wouldn't have known if the temple that he'd known in his day was already torn down.

As far as Rev. 11 referring to the destruction of Herod's temple, I suppose, then, you also have an explanation for the two witnesses that were prophesied? Where were the two people who prophesied at this time, who were killed by their enemies, and who came back to life and were called up to heaven, and it was seen by many people?

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
According to Paul's own words he was evil and so were all the Christians that were thrown to the lions, you must accept this because Paul's words are infallible and GOD says (if you believe the bible is infallible) earthly RULERS are not a terror to good works: Paul's own words condemn him as being evil.

Extraneous · Mar 12, 2016

They prophesy lies to us, these politicians and these false teachers who would lead us astray. They lead us away from our land which is the Kingdom of Christ, and is not an earthly nation at all. Dont listen to politicians, their love is for the world, not the Kingdom,just submit to government authority. Dont listen to anyone preaching an earthly kingdom of God either, because its not on earth.

Jeremiah27:9 Therefore do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers, or your sorcerers, who speak to you, saying, “You shall not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they prophesy a lie to you, to remove you far from your land; and I will drive you out, and you will perish. 11 But the nations that bring their necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let them remain in their own land,’ says the Lord, ‘and they shall till it and dwell in it.’”’”

Mathew 5:Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

nomadictheist · Mar 12, 2016

2 know him said:
Let's try dealing with one issue at a time and expanding on that post-by-post, and not having 100 issues that are all over the place.

No man can serve 2 masters, you cannot serve God and a human... You twist Jesus' words, all Jesus said was that since Caesars image was on the coin it is proof it is his and if it is his, give it back to him, but Jesus in no way answered the question by saying to pay taxes and support the evil that government does. Jesus clearly said HIM ONLY SHALT THOU SERVE. You cannot serve two governments: the government of God and the Government of man.

1Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

God clearly stated to Samuel that by having a man as a king the children of Israel rejected God that HE should NOT Rule over them. Paul contradicted not only Jesus' words, but Samuel's also. You don't seem to care at all about Jesus' words being contradicted, all you seem to care about is protecting your belief that the bible is God's word and to BLINDLY go on trying to embrace the parts you want to protect, against the things you reject.

This is a logical fallacy. Israel was an earthly Kingdom. The kingdom of Heaven is not:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”

Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

Israel rejected God as their ruler when they asked Samuel for a king of their own. At that time, God was the king of their earthly kingdom. But we do not live in the earthly kingdom of Israel, but we are sojourners in whichever earthly kingdom we currently live in, belonging to the kingdom of heaven (which is not of this world). For this reason, just as the Jews (Jesus' disciples and the multitudes listening to Him) were to be subject to the scribes and the pharisees who represented their governing authorities, so we are to be subject to our governing authorities.

I point you again to Jesus' instructions to His disciples:
Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do

Jesus' instructions to render to Caesar that which was Caesar's was an obvious statement that they should pay taxes. That was the entire context of the quote. They were using the money which Caesar's government produced. Therefore, they were to pay the taxes that Caesar required.

Extraneous · Mar 12, 2016

Mathew 6:19 “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Philippians 3:20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

How should we read Paul?

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