How should we read Paul?

Righttruth said:

Requiring an interpreter for gibberish speaking!

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No, just a quote from Paul to support the following claim you made:

Apart from that,Paul craftily came up with suggestions to solve problems of the churches that don't support the way of Jesus!

Despite contrary belief, i think that the words of Christ were written down pretty quickly. This only makes sense, seeing how it was the word of God. Surely they wrote it down as soon as he was resurrected, if not before. Its possible that paul had the words of Christ in writing. Aside from that however, Paul heard the Gospel message just as the rest of the pharisees did.

Righttruth said:

I mean the preaching of Jesus as recorded in the four books of the Gospel. We don't see people filtering Paul's epistles with gospel books as the foundation.

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How so? Was not Paul an apostle commissioned by Jesus Christ?

What I don't see a lot on various forums is people seeing the Gospels in the Light of the Cross and Empty Tomb. Jesus Christ had a mission and it did not end in Matthew chapter 5 nor Matthew 23 nor Matthew 28. The Mission continues and He left that mission with His apostles who planted the churches in the NT.

Have you considered 'how' Paul received the Gospel?

Galatians 1:


1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bondservant of Christ.

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

13 For you have heard of my former conduct in Judaism, how I persecuted the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it. 14 And I advanced in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

Thursday said:

They have the same message, but many protestants take Paul out of context.

If you read Paul selectively, you can get the impression that our actions on earth don't impact our salvation, but that's not actually what Paul taught, or Jesus for that matter.

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Frankly I don't know anyone who teaches what you say above the way you say it.

And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16)

If their is fault, it is with the readers interpretation of what Saint Paul wrote, not with what was written. Saint Peter vouched for him and that endorsement is enough proof for me. I would say that Saint Paul's letters should not be the first source that is used to derive doctrines because what he is saying is on a more advanced level and his audience consists of people who have already received the Gospel. So these people would read the letters in light of what Saint Paul has already told them in person. Many errors are committed by people who read Saint Paul's letters, interpret it for themselves and then attempt to force their interpretation back on the rest of the Bible. Doing this can make it seem like their is some kind of conflict between what Saint Paul and Jesus are saying.

Righttruth said:

Paul is also responsible in deviating from Jesus' preaching.

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How so?

Righttruth said:

Paul craftily came up with suggestions to solve problems of the churches that don't support the way of Jesus!

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Like what?

"Craftily?" Are implying Paul was a false prophet?

Righttruth said:

Logic is not the way to understand spiritual things! There cannot be more than 12 apostles! Peter calls him only beloved brother. The word scripture in the NT refers to only the OT verses.

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NT mentions many other apostles (Acts 14:14 1Thess cf 1Thess 1:1). TThese apsotles were not like teh 12 apostles of Jesus, but NT calls them apsotles nevertheless

redleghunter said:

Frankly I don't know anyone who teaches what you say above the way you say it.

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I think they are referring to the belief in Faith alone.

football5680 said:

I think they are referring to the belief in Faith alone.

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The OP is not referencing this point. Another poster added such and who I responded to.

However, I am sure you accept the teachings of St. Paul as Apostolic as I do.

Righttruth said:

Published book "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel" might help.

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Telling me to read a book does not help you support your claims.

Righttruth said:

Paul was not a witness in Jesus' earthly ministry. He never heard the elaboration of the parables by Jesus. Therefore, all his epistles should be tested to determine whether they complement the preaching of Jesus or not. Furthermore, any important theological concept cannot be based on Paul's epistles alone. Gospel is the filter one has to apply to his letters.

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Interestingly, modern scholars often now treat Paul as the most reliable witness on what the Christians first thought. This is because Paul's ministry is dated to 37-55 AD, while the gospels' writing is commonly dated afterwards (as late as 110 AD with John's gospel) and thus more likely to include later aberrations.

Paul's epistles are immediately written while the apostles are still in charge of the church in Jerusalem, before Peter went to Rome, where presumably he got killed. Yet John 21 in contrast talks about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death and how "we" (the editors of the gospel) know that John's testimony was true. John's gospel is in the third person and presents itself in John 21 as being edited, while Paul writes directly.

redleghunter said:

How so?

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You really don't expect an answer, do you? He has been asked several times for evidence and all he does is tap dance around it or just not answer.....so don't hold your breath.

Righttruth said:

Logic is not the way to understand spiritual things! There cannot be more than 12 apostles! Peter calls him only beloved brother. The word scripture in the NT refers to only the OT verses.

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Just like there can't be more than 12 tribes of Israel?

Consider, if you will, the following:

The first time in the Bible that the 12 tribes are enumerated, we see the following:

“Reuben, you are my firstborn,
My might and the beginning of my strength,
The excellency of dignity and the excellency of power.
4 Unstable as water, you shall not excel,
Because you went up to your father’s bed;
Then you defiled it—
He went up to my couch.

5 “Simeon and Levi are brothers;
Instruments of cruelty are in their dwelling place.
6 Let not my soul enter their council;
Let not my honor be united to their assembly;
For in their anger they slew a man,
And in their self-will they hamstrung an ox.
7 Cursed be their anger, for it is fierce;
And their wrath, for it is cruel!
I will divide them in Jacob
And scatter them in Israel.

8 “Judah, you are he whom your brothers shall praise;
Your hand shall be on the neck of your enemies;
Your father’s children shall bow down before you.
9 Judah is a lion’s whelp;
From the prey, my son, you have gone up.
He bows down, he lies down as a lion;
And as a lion, who shall rouse him?
10 The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes;
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.
11 Binding his donkey to the vine,
And his donkey’s colt to the choice vine,
He washed his garments in wine,
And his clothes in the blood of grapes.
12 His eyes are darker than wine,
And his teeth whiter than milk.

13 “Zebulun shall dwell by the haven of the sea;
He shall become a haven for ships,
And his border shall adjoin Sidon.

14 “Issachar is a strong donkey,
Lying down between two burdens;
15 He saw that rest was good,
And that the land was pleasant;
He bowed his shoulder to bear a burden,
And became a band of slaves.

16 “Dan shall judge his people
As one of the tribes of Israel.
17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way,
A viper by the path,
That bites the horse’s heels
So that its rider shall fall backward.
18 I have waited for your salvation, O Lord!

19 “Gad, a troop shall tramp upon him,
But he shall triumph at last.

20 “Bread from Asher shall be rich,
And he shall yield royal dainties.

21 “Naphtali is a deer let loose;
He uses beautiful words.

22 “Joseph is a fruitful bough,
A fruitful bough by a well;
His branches run over the wall.
23 The archers have bitterly grieved him,
Shot at him and hated him.
24 But his bow remained in strength,
And the arms of his hands were made strong
By the hands of the Mighty God of Jacob
(From there is the Shepherd, the Stone of Israel),
25 By the God of your father who will help you,
And by the Almighty who will bless you
With blessings of heaven above,
Blessings of the deep that lies beneath,
Blessings of the breasts and of the womb.
26 The blessings of your father
Have excelled the blessings of my ancestors,
Up to the utmost bound of the everlasting hills.
They shall be on the head of Joseph,
And on the crown of the head of him who was separate from his brothers.

27 “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf;
In the morning he shall devour the prey,
And at night he shall divide the spoil.”

28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father spoke to them. And he blessed them; he blessed each one according to his own blessing

We see this same list in Exodus 1:1-5.

But when the twelve tribes are numbered in Numbers 1, we see the tribe of Joseph "split" into the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, and the tribe of "Levi" omitted. From this point forward, the majority of the time that the tribes are enumerated Ephraim and Manasseh are listed instead of Joseph. Sometimes another tribe is omitted. Sometimes there are 13 tribes listed.

So what gives? Are there 12 tribes or 13 tribes? Or are there 14 tribes? Why do we see the tribe of Joseph become two tribes, while other tribes are in various ways left out of the reckoning?

So now we come to the New Testament.

We see that there are 12 apostles. One becomes the betrayer. The apostles choose Matthias by use of lots. Then Paul is chosen by Jesus as the apostle to the gentiles.

So what gives? Are there 12 apostles or 13 apostles? Or are there 14 apostles?

Maybe what we should do, instead of contradicting Paul, is accept that Jesus did indeed call him as an apostle, and that our perception that there can "only be 12" is just that - a perception. It's nowhere in the Bible.

Thursday said:

They have the same message, but many protestants take Paul out of context.

If you read Paul selectively, you can get the impression that our actions on earth don't impact our salvation, but that's not actually what Paul taught, or Jesus for that matter.

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It is important you define what type of actions you speak of.

Actions as defined in the Council of Orange?

http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html

civilwarbuff said:

You really don't expect an answer, do you? He has been asked several times for evidence and all he does is tap dance around it or just not answer.....so don't hold your breath.

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Just trying to figure out what 'actions' a person performs which is necessary to add to Blood of Jesus Christ? For example as discussed at the Council of Orange.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/i....reformed.org/documents/canons_of_orange.html

Righttruth said:

I don't think the communications at that time were like what we have now. Paul might have been more knowledgeable in the OT than the chosen apostles, but he missed out the sublime and profound teaching of Jesus while He was on earth. He took short cuts and deviated from the way in many a account.

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Can you substantiate the above by quoting where you believe Paul showed such deficiencies and errors? Or was Paul misleading the Galatians in chapter 1 of the epistle to that church?

As it stands you have unfounded assertions. Assertions are not arguments there's a difference. Will we see a polemic supporting your statements?

redleghunter said:

Frankly I don't know anyone who teaches what you say above the way you say it.

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That's what Calvinists teach.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual.

Righttruth said:

Published book "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel" might help.

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Maybe he omitted his theological training in his bio, but this is what we have on the author of the book above:

About the Author: by Devaprakash R. Shampur (Author)
The author is a retired principal and professor of mechanical engineering having served in a couple of engineering colleges in the state of Karnataka. He had his education both in India as well as in the U.S.A., with degrees of Master of Engineering from Bangalore University and Master of Science from the University of Cincinnati, USA. He is a fellow of the Institution of Engineers (India) and a member of the American Society of Mechanical Engineers. He has been listed in “Who is Who in the World?” published by Marquis, U.S.A., Dictionary of International Biography, Cambridge, U.K., and Asia’s “Who is Who?” He is a freelancer. His letters and opinions have been published in almost all English Dailies (Deccan Herald, Times of India, New Indian Express, Hindu, Vijaya Times, Daily News Analysis, Free Press Journal, and Asian Age); weeklies (India Today, Outlook, Frontline, and The Week) and Reader’s Digest including ASME Mechanical Engineering Magazine. His books, “Wisdom, Human Spirit and Travel”, “Why I Am A Believer in Jesus” (A Story of a Hindu Devanga Brahmin), “Can A Christian Marry, Divorce, and Remarry” and “Artful Argentina and Awesome Antarctica” have been published by Notion Press.

You may want to provide a book review at Amazon as no one has yet attempted to review this book. Could be an indicator.

The only sites (blogs of course!) which support the theme of the book you listed are people who deny the Deity of the Messiah Jesus.

Thursday said:

That's what Calvinists teach.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual.

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Is the above from the Westminster Confession?