How should we read Paul?

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

jerry kelso said:
righttruth,

Full of opinions and no facts. To understand the sermon on the mount has to do with understanding the old testament and the context of the KOH and the KOG according to the covenants of Abraham and David to the nation of Israel specifically and only and not Paul's speculations.
You make up accusations you can't substantiate, give no scriptural basis for much of anything or at least to proper context. You have no valid reason to post. Your whole perception is a tinkling cymbal of wrong knowledge trying to sound right. Be fair and honest for a change. Jerry kelso

Are you saying that the Sermon on the Mount was addressed to Israel only and not to us?

redleghunter · Mar 10, 2016

Righttruth said:
No, many diversions from the teaching of Jesus can be observed by those who give utmost importance to Jesus and His words

Sir, you keep saying the above but never point them out.

Righttruth · Mar 10, 2016

redleghunter said:
All I can conclude from the above exchange is that the apostles performed some miracles that were from God and some that were not from Satan. The Pharisees made this claim against Jesus Christ.

You do realize throughout the OT and NT the Power of God always accompanied the Word spoken.

We shall not forget what we are seeking: eternal life. Miracle worker and beneficiary may be lost if they don't work according to the will of God. After all, Jesus performed miracles to draw their attention toward God. If resurrected Lazarus had not followed Jesus, he would have been lost.

nomadictheist · Mar 10, 2016

Righttruth said:
What meaning you apply to that word?

I'll start with the most simple definition, from Merriam-Webster:
"to say the opposite of (something that someone else has said)"

ScottA · Mar 10, 2016

redleghunter said:
What is the transcendent standard in which you use to test truth claims.

Thanks.

The end of all is the spirit. When we are born again of the Spirit of God, we have access to all knowledge. Even so, knowledge during the times of this world are by revelation from God, at His chosen time. A man cannot test God, but he can know Him, and know His truth.

Extraneous · Mar 10, 2016

Righttruth said:
We shall not forget what we are seeking: eternal life. Miracle worker and beneficiary may be lost if they don't work according to the will of God. After all, Jesus performed miracles to draw their attention toward God. If resurrected Lazarus had not followed Jesus, he would have been lost.

I believe miracles were like a shadow that pointed to a spiritual truth that is in Christ, i believe physical healing is really a shadow that points to our spiritual healing, the ultimate goal is death and resurrection. That's what Paul teaches us. He teaches us to look at what is unseen (eternal) and not what is seen (temporary) He uses this teaching to exhort us to not only put away sinful desires which cause us to sin, but also to focus on heaven instead things on earth. The signs that the apostles and the Lord performed were also the sings that proved who they were, but we have the word, and our faith comes by hearing, not by seeing. I am content without seeing any miracle, and i know that Satan will deceive the world by such things.

Extraneous · Mar 10, 2016

Of course there is spiritual sight as well, but its like spiritual hearing. Its not observed with the natural eye.

Extraneous · Mar 10, 2016

Any person can hear the Gospel, that doesnt mean that they actually hear it though.

redleghunter · Mar 10, 2016

Righttruth said:
We shall not forget what we are seeking: eternal life. Miracle worker and beneficiary may be lost if they don't work according to the will of God. After all, Jesus performed miracles to draw their attention toward God. If resurrected Lazarus had not followed Jesus, he would have been lost.

I'll wait for clarification.

redleghunter · Mar 10, 2016

ScottA said:
The end of all is the spirit. When we are born again of the Spirit of God, we have access to all knowledge. Even so, knowledge during the times of this world are by revelation from God, at His chosen time. A man cannot test God, but he can know Him, and know His truth.

Could you address what I actually asked?

You say X, I say Y and we are both again of the Spirit of God. How do we test our truth claims to determine if you X is correct or me Y is correct?

ScottA · Mar 10, 2016

redleghunter said:
Could you address what I actually asked?

You say X, I say Y and we are both again of the Spirit of God. How do we test our truth claims to determine if you X is correct or me Y is correct?

We don't [really]. We can test the spirit, but we cannot test God...which means our ability to test is greatly limited. God decides. Nonetheless, He uses untestable people to carry forward His truth. Our best way of knowing truth when we hear it, is by staying close to Him. And we can ask.

jerry kelso · Mar 10, 2016

Extraneous said:
You cant substantiate things you say either. You have discarded the sermon on the mount making its command void. You probably do the same thing with Pauls commands. All Pentecostals see is prosperity teaching i assume. The commands are useless to them, but they invent prosperity doctrine instead, by misapplying scripture. I cant show partiality in judgment here, if i disagree with Righttruth, i must also disagree with you when you're wrong.

extraneous,

1. I have scriptural proof and jewish history of the old testament according to the scriptures.

2. I have not discarded the sermon on the mount and you probably don't even know why Christ made the command. I don't discard what Paul said either and where is your proof that I do these things? Nowhere!
All Pentecostals and prosperity teaching is your stereotyping and you assume wrong. I am a christian first and I believe denominations in the full context are not scriptural for there is only one true body of Christ. Do you go to a denominational church?
You don't even know what I believe about prosperity but it is not extreme.
You can disagree with me or who ever but like I told righttruth if you are going to accuse show the proof of scripture and context of that passage and the whole book context.
All the bible is for us in proper perspective. So if you want to tell me specifically what you think I am wrong about give scripture and context etc. otherwise it is just your generalized opinion and typical stereotyping of what someone believes. Your turn. Jerry Kelso

Lulav · Mar 10, 2016

Righttruth said:
Peter was rebutted and given the title of Satan for proposing what an intimate and well wisher does to his teacher.

While it's true that Peter was rebuked, he was not given the 'title' of Adversary, he was speaking against the plan of salvation that was foretold, not meaning to thwart it but in essence that is what the Adversary wanted, not for Jesus to die.

This is a good example of what 'well meaning' things one says can actually be seen by God as evil because they are against his plan.

Lulav · Mar 10, 2016

Righttruth said:
By their fruits we know them. Satan presence and influence are expected everywhere. He was there even in God's garden of Eden. Wheat and tare grow together. We need the help of the Holy Spirit to distinguish between the two.

Yes, this is very true. The reason for that is because God gave us a gift of free will. And like the wheat and tares, good and evil, they look the same, and it's hard to distinguish which is why we need the comforter to lead us.

We need to see the Adversary in the eyes of G-d he that opposes Him also is used for testing His people. He (the Adversary) was sent to test Jesus, why would he not be sent to test us?

Lulav · Mar 10, 2016

ScottA said:
We don't [really]. We can test the spirit, but we cannot test God...which means our ability to test is greatly limited. God decides. Nonetheless, He uses untestable people to carry forward His truth. Our best way of knowing truth when we hear it, is by staying close to Him. And we can ask.

Hi Scott, could you define what you mean by 'untestable people'? Thx

jerry kelso · Mar 10, 2016

Righttruth said:
This is my point too. We need to read and hear what the Holy Spirit says, not simply reading with preconceived notions.

righttruth,

1. One's hearing what the Holy Spirit says has to founded in the real truth of the word of God. Rightly dividing the word properly is not preconceived notions and you can't answer simple questions which implies preconceived notions and questions the validity of hearing from the Holy Spirit. Upon this thinking anyone can say they hear from the Holy Spirit and don't have to worry if they have rendered the scripture properly or not.

2. There are plenty of false prophets, teachers and false believers that say they have heard from God and one wouldn't or couldn't know if they were right if they didn't have the truth of the word to back it up. You haven't shown that you can back up what you say so why should any of us believe you have heard from the Lord. This is not a personal attack but it is common sense.

3. Nobody denies that we need to hear from the Holy Spirit but to say what you got from the Holy Spirit trumps the word in context when you don't understand it and give the perception of making it secondary to what you think you hear from the Holy Spirit is not biblical. If we don't have the truth of the word we have no truth. He gave us the bible to study to show ourselves approved and you haven't shown that you have knowledge of backing up anything with scriptures and context and reconciling scriptures together so there will be no contradictions.

4. I will ask you one question, do you believe the bible is inerrant? Jerry Kelso

Extraneous · Mar 10, 2016

jerry kelso said:
extraneous,

2. I have not discarded the sermon on the mount and you probably don't even know why Christ made the command. I don't discard what Paul said either and where is your proof that I do these things? Nowhere!

First off, you did discard it, you said no teacher would dare teach it. Secondly, i do know why Christ made the command because it has guided me.

1 Corinthians 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

And the Sermon on the mount agrees with the above scripture-

Mathew 7:24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

Extraneous · Mar 10, 2016

jerry kelso said:
righttruth,

1. One's hearing what the Holy Spirit says has to founded in the real truth of the word of God.

Mathew 7:24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

ScottA · Mar 10, 2016

Lulav said:
Hi Scott, could you define what you mean by 'untestable people'? Thx

There is simply no test that will tell us if a person is telling the truth about matters of God. God is truth. But if a person speaks His truth, who can test it? No one. History alone can prove it out.

redleghunter · Mar 10, 2016

ScottA said:
We don't [really]. We can test the spirit, but we cannot test God...which means our ability to test is greatly limited. God decides. Nonetheless, He uses untestable people to carry forward His truth. Our best way of knowing truth when we hear it, is by staying close to Him. And we can ask.

God is not Buddha and the river of a thousand voices.

Answer: God's written inspired Word is our transcendent standard to test truth claims. 2 Timothy 3:14-16; 4:1-5

How should we read Paul?

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