How safe are immunization programs?

JohnR7 · Sep 12, 2003

When we first began to immunize children, the risk from disease was very real. The risk from disease was also higher than the risk associated with the immunization programs. So to immunize seemed like the right thing to do.

Now, I have two questions:

First of all, even though the bennifit seems to outweigh the risk, do we really have a right to force immunization on people?

Second of all, does the bennifit now a days still outweigh the drawbacks? Many diseases have been eliminated, and others greatly reduced. So why do we need to continue to immunize when the risk is so greatly reduced?

SqueezetheShaman · Sep 12, 2003

It isn't forced. Parents can opt out of it on religious grounds, and the child can still go to school.
Also the risk is if MANY people stopped, the diseases would then have a resurgence.

JohnR7 · Sep 12, 2003

SqueezetheShaman said:
Parents can opt out of it on religious grounds, and the child can still go to school.

And just how do you go about doing that?

Also the risk is if MANY people stopped, the diseases would then have a resurgence.

That does seem to be the problem, a few rotten apples ruin it for everyone. You have a few isolated pockets here and there in Russia or Africa or some place like that, where the disease has not been totally eliminated. So rather then to go into those areas and deal with the problem, the whole world has to be immunized to protect themselves.

Is the objective to elimate disease or to make money off of the immunization program from parents who are to proud to take their kids in for free shots? I know a women who really should have been home with her child, who was out working just so she could have health insurance, so they could afford to give their child all of his shots.

SqueezetheShaman · Sep 12, 2003

JohnR7 said:
I know a women who really should have been home with her child, who was out working just so she could have health insurance, so they could afford to give their child all of his shots.

Whenever I hear stories about the "starving" families or families without health insurance, I want details. This country is very effective in taking care of it's children. You can get medicaid for free if you meet the low income requirements. Not saying you are lying, just sayin maybe there are ways she could do it while staying home.

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/DailyNews/July2001/E-NewsReligFreedomPreservNY.htm

Arikay · Sep 12, 2003

Of course the objective is to suck the parents pocket book dry, I mean, Duh.

revolutio · Sep 12, 2003

I stay on the safe side and run away from any needle I see.

Vance · Sep 12, 2003

I am wondering why it is that "she should have been home with her child"? Is it something particular about her situation or just a general statement that women should be home with the children rather than working?

(OT, I know, but the way that was phrased struck me as odd).

Annabel Lee · Sep 12, 2003

JohnR7 said:
First of all, even though the bennifit seems to outweigh the risk, do we really have a right to force immunization on people?

No one should be forced.

Second of all, does the bennifit now a days still outweigh the drawbacks? Many diseases have been eliminated, and others greatly reduced. So why do we need to continue to immunize when the risk is so greatly reduced?

Here is the website for the National Vaccine Information Center
http://www.909shot.com/About.htm

Mission Statement
The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) is dedicated to the prevention of vaccine injuries and deaths through public education. NVIC provides assistance to parents whose children have suffered vaccine reactions; promotes research to evaluate vaccine safety and effectiveness as well as to identify factors which place individuals at high risk for suffering vaccine reactions; and monitors vaccine research, development, policy-making and legislation. NVIC supports the right of citizens to exercise informed consent and make educated, independent vaccination decisions for themselves and their children.

Different states have different laws about immunizations. California is fairly liberal, parents can opt out on some or all vaccines due to religious reasons and philosophical reasons. Most states only have the religious option and even then you have to fight it tooth and nail.

John, the site I linked above has a lot of useful information about your legal rights as a parent.

LorentzHA · Sep 13, 2003

Some diseases are making a "comeback". I was apprehensive about gettting my little one vaccinated. The risks of reactions and long term damage are very rare but when you have a child of your own, ANY risk is too big. My husband and I decided to go ahead and do it. She is VERY healthy . Yes, you do not have to get immunizations. I remeber a good friend from high school never had ANY immunizations. Her dad was a Chiropractor and believed completely in the bodies ability to defend itself. There is some truth to that. Children who are over medicated with anti-biotics often beome highly allergic as adults. There immune system never really had to fight anything on its own. I am a believer in some "alternative" forms of medicine. I recommend a yearly physical but I do not believe in the prescription pad for every little ache and pain. I think Chiropractic is a very interesting field. I see one myself and have benefitted in many ways from the adjustments. (Sorry, I am rambling and off topic, I know)..... Yeah immunizations are not something to be taken lightly. I will say that our society is very over medicated.

Arikay · Sep 13, 2003

Of course, the normal docs also use the body to cure itself. Kids that have many allergies, can get allergy shots (similiar to the way some vaccines are done), where the shots contain a small amount of the allergy and allow you body to slowly adapt to the allergy. Thus getting rid of a majority if not all of your allergies.

Nathan Poe · Sep 13, 2003

JohnR7 said:
When we first began to immunize children, the risk from disease was very real. The risk from disease was also higher than the risk associated with the immunization programs. So to immunize seemed like the right thing to do.

I've heard horror stories from the early days of Polio vaccinations, but that was a while ago.

Now, I have two questions:

First of all, even though the bennifit seems to outweigh the risk, do we really have a right to force immunization on people?

It's already been said that one can opt out on religious grounds. Why anyone would refuse for any reason besides religious is beyond me.

Second of all, does the bennifit now a days still outweigh the drawbacks? Many diseases have been eliminated, and others greatly reduced. So why do we need to continue to immunize when the risk is so greatly reduced?

Diseases have been eliminated, and risk greatly reduced because of immunizations. It would be foolish to stop a practice because it works.

And don't count those diseases out just yet; They have a nasty habit of surviving, adapting, and resurfacing. That darn evolution!

LorentzHA · Sep 14, 2003

Yes, those are good points Arikay. People really need to watch antibiotic use, that is why most adults develop allergies to pollen etc. Anti biotics have been used way too much and now many of them are not affective.

@John-
Most Health departments in cities will immunize children for almost nothing. In major cities they have several immunizations "fairs" a couple of weekeds a year wheere children can get their shots for 5 dollars. I know the city I live in does this. There are many options for people who cannot afford healthcare. Also in major cities that many hospitals there is typically a county hospital that the local Med. school "feeds" into where many of its students do their residency. People can obtain great healthcare at these hospital on a "sliding scale" depending on their income. These hospital take in indigent people as well.

JohnR7 · Sep 14, 2003

LorentzHA said:
People can obtain great healthcare at these hospital on a "sliding scale" depending on their income.

I do not know how "great" it is. When my wife had her baby, I was filled with faith that everything was going to go as smooth as could be and that we were not going to have any problems at all. So I enrolled her as a subject for the doctors in training. It was all free, that is for sure. The only problem was they treated her like a alcoholic, drug addict and sexually promiscuous women. Becasue that is mostly what they got into that program and they had to treat everyone the same. She went along just fine for 9 months, like a swiss watch, with no problems at all. She did not take her vitimans, and that showed up on their blood tests, they caught her. She was eating to many christmas cookies and that showed up on her blood tests, they caught her. Everything went along as smooth as could be right up to when it was time to deliver. Then all of a sudden there was a problem, it was a VERY slow deliver. Nothing they did to try and speed up her delivery worked. From start to finish she was in delivery for 36 hours. But only 12 of that was in the hospital. They kept saying, there is nothing unusual here. This is very common.

Anyways, for nine months, no problem, if she had not had a doctor, it would not have made any difference at all. But when it came time to deliver, when she really did need someone there to help her, I was disappointed in the medical care she got. When I started to research it afterwards, I could see that I would have done things different from the way they did it.

One problem we had is that the doctor she ended up with wanted to do everything his way, and he did not want to talk to us about it first. When he did talk to us, he would get upset with us, that we did not always want to do it his way. It was just the luck of the draw and the way things ended up. Of course all the doctors were not like him. It would have been a lot nicer if we could have had some say so in the doctor we got for the delivery.

Like my friend says, that teaches out at the medical college. When it comes to him and his family, he wants a doctor with at least 15 years experance. There is no way he is going to take his family to a student doctor.

In the Philippines they usually have a mid wife that comes out to the house and is trained to know when to send them to the hospital. My wife would have gotten by fine with that. Because like I said, the things they did to speed up the deliver in her case slowed it down. They would have been better off just to leave her be and let her move along at her own rate. Of course they had no way of knowing that. This is far from an exact science.

A midwife was not an option here in America, because she was over the age of 35. So she was required to go to a doctor.

JohnR7 · Sep 14, 2003

Nathan Poe said:
And don't count those diseases out just yet; They have a nasty habit of surviving, adapting, and resurfacing. That darn evolution!

Disease may have something to do with "a nasty habit", but I doubt if it has much to do with evolution. When people are dead in their sin, why should we be surprised that "natural" death begins to set in?

LorentzHA · Sep 14, 2003

JohnR7 said:
I do not know how "great" it is. When my wife had her baby, I was filled with faith that everything was going to go as smooth as could be and that we were not going to have any problems at all. So I enrolled her as a subject for the doctors in training. It was all free, that is for sure. The only problem was they treated her like a alcoholic, drug addict and sexually promiscuous women. Becasue that is mostly what they got into that program and they had to treat everyone the same. She went along just fine for 9 months, like a swiss watch, with no problems at all. She did not take her vitimans, and that showed up on their blood tests, they caught her. She was eating to many christmas cookies and that showed up on her blood tests, they caught her. Everything went along as smooth as could be right up to when it was time to deliver. Then all of a sudden there was a problem, it was a VERY slow deliver. Nothing they did to try and speed up her delivery worked. From start to finish she was in delivery for 36 hours. But only 12 of that was in the hospital. They kept saying, there is nothing unusual here. This is very common.

Anyways, for nine months, no problem, if she had not had a doctor, it would not have made any difference at all. But when it came time to deliver, when she really did need someone there to help her, I was disappointed in the medical care she got. When I started to research it afterwards, I could see that I would have done things different from the way they did it.

One problem we had is that the doctor she ended up with wanted to do everything his way, and he did not want to talk to us about it first. When he did talk to us, he would get upset with us, that we did not always want to do it his way. It was just the luck of the draw and the way things ended up. Of course all the doctors were not like him. It would have been a lot nicer if we could have had some say so in the doctor we got for the delivery.

Like my friend says, that teaches out at the medical college. When it comes to him and his family, he wants a doctor with at least 15 years experance. There is no way he is going to take his family to a student doctor.

In the Philippines they usually have a mid wife that comes out to the house and is trained to know when to send them to the hospital. My wife would have gotten by fine with that. Because like I said, the things they did to speed up the deliver in her case slowed it down. They would have been better off just to leave her be and let her move along at her own rate. Of course they had no way of knowing that. This is far from an exact science.

A midwife was not an option here in America, because she was over the age of 35. So she was required to go to a doctor.

Sorry to hear this. Your son is healthy though? When I had my daughter I had a real creep for a Doctor. He was SO arrogant among other things. We had already paid him quite a bit of money and our insurance had approved him by the time his pathological personality started expressing. I developed a heart problem while I was pregnant. I was having irregular and extra beats. I was sent to a cardiologist who ran some tests. I have what is referred to as "Mitral Valve Regurgitation" My Mitral valve does not close completely so it is like a toilet that runs after a flush (to put it into a crude analogy) I had no idea I had this. It did not start to give me problems until I was 6 months pregnant. During pregnancy you have more blood and fluids, making the heart work harder (plus extra weight). The cardiologist explained everything to me and told me she had a similar issue when she was pregnant and it is VERY common in pregnant women especially during the last tri-mester. She was so caring that she even showed up to check on me after delivery and see the baby. My Obstetrician was a complete jerk and was trying to blame me by insinuating I was consuming large doses of caffeine to aggravate the problem. (while I was pregnant I ate VERY healthy and cut out ALL caffeine. I still exercise but I toned that down to walking on the treadmill and simple weight lifting of very light amounts) He almost took pleasure in seeing me trying to defend that I was not consuming ANYTHING with caffeine. Plus when a women is pregnant she has all the extra hormones flowing so I was VERY sensitive. My husband went with me to a check up to tell him that I am drinking NOTHING with caffeine and to knock it off. He basically said, It was a joke. My husband told him I did not find it funny and was very sensitive during this time. (It seems like he should have known that since that is common). He was also a little on the perverted side and had made a few lewd comments that had "double meanings". I was SO glad to have the baby and get away from him. I immediately switched doctors after the birth and have been very happy with Dr. I found. It is like anything else, there are jerks in every profession. The heart problem went away (noticable symtoms) a week after I had my daughter and I have been fine since it would have been nice to have a more caring and reassuring Physician.

Nathan Poe · Sep 14, 2003

JohnR7 said:
I do not know how "great" it is. When my wife had her baby, I was filled with faith that everything was going to go as smooth as could be and that we were not going to have any problems at all. So I enrolled her as a subject for the doctors in training. It was all free, that is for sure. The only problem was they treated her like a alcoholic, drug addict and sexually promiscuous women. Becasue that is mostly what they got into that program and they had to treat everyone the same. She went along just fine for 9 months, like a swiss watch, with no problems at all. She did not take her vitimans, and that showed up on their blood tests, they caught her. She was eating to many christmas cookies and that showed up on her blood tests, they caught her. Everything went along as smooth as could be right up to when it was time to deliver. Then all of a sudden there was a problem, it was a VERY slow deliver. Nothing they did to try and speed up her delivery worked. From start to finish she was in delivery for 36 hours. But only 12 of that was in the hospital. They kept saying, there is nothing unusual here. This is very common.

So let me see if I have this correct: Your wife went to the hospital for her pregnancy.

She was supposed to take her vitamins; she did not.
She was supposed to lay off the Christmas cookies; she did not.

The whole time, everything seemed fine with her.

She spent 36 hours in labor; long, but not unusual.

And even though you didn't say it, I'm assuming that you had a healthy child.

So what exactly is the problem?

Anyways, for nine months, no problem, if she had not had a doctor, it would not have made any difference at all. But when it came time to deliver, when she really did need someone there to help her, I was disappointed in the medical care she got. When I started to research it afterwards, I could see that I would have done things different from the way they did it.

As you said, you enrolled her in the program with the med students. Were you expecting perfection?

One problem we had is that the doctor she ended up with wanted to do everything his way, and he did not want to talk to us about it first. When he did talk to us, he would get upset with us, that we did not always want to do it his way. It was just the luck of the draw and the way things ended up. Of course all the doctors were not like him. It would have been a lot nicer if we could have had some say so in the doctor we got for the delivery.

Like my friend says, that teaches out at the medical college. When it comes to him and his family, he wants a doctor with at least 15 years experance. There is no way he is going to take his family to a student doctor.

Live and learn.

In the Philippines they usually have a mid wife that comes out to the house and is trained to know when to send them to the hospital. My wife would have gotten by fine with that. Because like I said, the things they did to speed up the deliver in her case slowed it down. They would have been better off just to leave her be and let her move along at her own rate. Of course they had no way of knowing that. This is far from an exact science.

A midwife was not an option here in America, because she was over the age of 35. So she was required to go to a doctor.

after 35, pregnancies get more complicated. As your friend said, a doctor with at least 15 years experience probably would've handled things without a problem.

LorentzHA · Sep 14, 2003

Yes, that is an interesting point about the vitamins. I am curious why she would not take them? The vitamins are not for the baby's benefit but for the mothers. The baby will get all of the vitamins it needs from the mother. The baby will drain its mothers vitamin "resevoirs", if need be. Many mothers who do not take prenatal vitamins will end up anemic and with dental problems.

How safe are immunization programs?

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