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How radiometric dating works and why it's wrong

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Deamiter

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I've REALLY got to go get important things done as I've got a presentation to give next week, and later today I have an assignment to cover some presidential presentation... But I didn't want to leave you without a good source for C14 calibration.

Here's one (of many) primary source that's often cited. View the pdf for some of the graphs. I don't think it shows a graph of C14 ratios vs. time because there's no reason for such a graph. The graphs of calibrated C14 MEASURED is exactly the same thing -- they just didn't run the data through the exponential decay ratio. Again (to be clear) it's EXACTLY the same data you asked for (graph of C14 ratio vs. time), just in a different form.
http://www.radiocarbon.org/Subscribers/Fulltext/v40n3_Kromer_1117.html
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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ThaiDuykhang said:
[C14 dating should only be used for dates over 1000 years old]
http://www.seed.slb.com/qa2/FAQView.cfm?ID=431
As Deamiter tried to explain, because Carbon dating measures when the organic material died carbon dating a chair that was made from wood from the center of a 100 year old tree will produce a much more significant skew percentage-wise if the chair was built in 1830 A.D. than if it was built in 1000A.D. so historians tend to look to other methods (like looking for dated papers, artifacts that were only built after a certain date ...) for dating more recent finds.

I suspect that is what motivated the web page you cite, but the fact remains that C14 dating is widely used for artifacts that are less than 1000 years old.

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/vinland/newport.htm
He extensively discusses the recent carbon-14 dating of the mortar by Jan Heinemeier and Högne Jungner (HJ, 1994). According to HJ, their tests indicate that the Tower was built not earlier than 1635 AD, and most likely in the range 1651-1679.​
http://www.spongobongo.com/0her9872.htm
Dr. Jull did the c14 testing on the James C. Allen 17th century Tekke Juval.​
http://www.historian.net/shroud.htm
The linen of the shroud was manufactured, according to these results, sometime between 1260 CE and 1390 CE​
Please note that this and other sites dispute this date based on contamination, not on the inaccuracy of dates less than 1000 years old.
Please note, 12 dates, with the difference between max and min means of 200 years or roughly 40% of the average date.
http://www.scirpus.ca/dung/human.htm
C-14 dates span roughly 8300 yr BP, lower levels, to around 500 yr BP, upper levels.​
http://www.nio.org/projects/vora/project_vora_3.jsp
The C14 dating of the timber suggests that the St George's Reef wreck is about 115 years old, and therefore occurred in the latter part of the 19th century.​
Do I really need to go on?
 
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Robert the Pilegrim

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Deamiter said:
But I didn't want to leave you without a good source for C14 calibration.
Thanks, I hadn't seen that one. I had been wondering about the correlation between the Bristlecone pine and the German oak, which I hadn't seen mentioned together elsewhere.

My favorite source is the Japanese lake varves
http://www.cio.phys.rug.nl/HTML-docs/Verslag/97/PE-04.htm
The gif below is from that page.

It shows overlap between the absolute German oak dendrochronology, floating pine calibration, the Polish lake varves, the Japanese varves.

Elsewhere on the page you can see the whole 40,000 year calibration curve, the last part of which is using corals which were dated using U decay.
 

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Robert the Pilegrim

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ThaiDuykhang said:
I've shown you ice core's don't have anual rings. daily rings maybe, but not anual.
And you are wrong.
We're talking about ice cores not snow cores, so snowfall is relatively unimportant.
And where do you think the ice comes from?

http://www2.umaine.edu/GISP2/data/ajgow.html
A preliminary depth-age scale to 2811 m for the GISP2 core based on annual layer counting has been completed by D. Meese and the dating committee. Annual counts based on visual stratigraphy was initiated in the field and completed at the National Ice Core Laboratory (NICL) in Denver. This work was facilitated by use of a focused fiber optic light source that illuminated stratigraphic detail permitting essentially continuous layer counting to 2811 m, corresponding to ice at least 85,000 years old. Comparison of visible stratigraphy, electrical conductivity measurements (ecm), laser light scattering of dust and oxygen isotopes (only in the top 300 m) revealed an excellent correlation between these annual signals to a minimum depth of 2500 m.​

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/icecore/greenland/summit/document/gripinfo.htm

It was possible to count annual layers in the GRIP core to obtain an excellent dating, particularly back to the Younger Dryas period. Parameters used to date the core included ECM, dust, nitrate and ammonium, which all give excellent annual layers, particularly in the Holocene period.​

The Holocene is the last ~10000 years
The Younger Dryas occured at about 11 kyr BP
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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Chemical reaction doesn't distinguish C12 and C14. isotypes are equally likely to react with something else.
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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It's not the absolute amount of C14 that matters. it's the relative level of C14 to C12 that counts. and CO2 mainly if not all comes from atmosphere.

Deamiter said:
Don't lie about a number used for ice-core dating. I never gave a number for Greenland -- just Antarctica. And I was citing ANNUAL precipitation, not the thickness of annual layers.
Yeah, an "anual" layer is never 5'5" whereever you drill. a few millimeter or 100 millimeter doesn't matter. it's not 5.5ft and in the 5.5ft deep of ice, there're lots of "anual" layers.


You're confusing the issue. you failed to explain why many layers are built up within a year in 5.5 ft of ice. if it were anual layers, there should be 2 layers only.

Do snails eat rocks? all material in a snail comes from its everyday diet which doesn't include rocks right?

I don't know if it's a condidate for dating in the first place and it's not important. the importance is they dated using the "right" procedure and got a wrong result.
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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You don't even understand my argument. taken one picture for example.
1. there're many rings can't be distinguished. especially the outlayers are of similar thickness and pattern.
2. so given another tree of the same kind that grew in the same area, it's quite arbitrary where one joins them. if one joins them on the 10th ring from the ouside of the first tree, can't he joins them at the 20th ring, 30th ring?
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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So you have read that site. why can't you produce any good argument?
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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Then explain why multiple layers are built up within one year.
All these dating method are based on the assumption earth is older than 6000 years. without this assumption, you won't have any dating method. it's circula reasoning.
 
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Deamiter

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ThaiDuykhang said:
Then explain why multiple layers are built up within one year.
All these dating method are based on the assumption earth is older than 6000 years. without this assumption, you won't have any dating method. it's circula reasoning.
First of all, multiple layers are not built up in a year -- not the way you make it sound. Reports of multiple layers at the site of the plane crash are not reliable reports. I have no doubt that there WERE multiple layers -- you see layering in ANY snow drift. However, those layers are nowhere NEAR equivilant to the annual layers produced in desert environments. Further, no cores were taken at the plane site. They didn't even follow the most basic procedures to reduce contamination. They simply melted a hole through the ice to the plane -- one of the guys doing the melting noticed that there were lots of layers.

So you've got a guy who's never SEEN the layers from ice cores, much less been trained in what they look like or how to drill ice cores. He says there were lots of layers. I don't doubt that there were! But we'd EXPECT there to be lots of layers in an environment with high snowfall!

It's as if you had two similar plants sitting on your counter and you watered one every day, but you watered the other only once a month. Just because one thrives doesn't mean that the other is going to look exactly the same after a year!

It is true, the dating methods all assume that the Earth is older than 6000 years. And any one of them might give false ages if the Earth WERE only 6000 years old. However, the fact that they all agree AT MULTIPLE DEPTHS is proof that the Earth is older. The decay rate is different for each element tested. There is literally NO way that they could all agree up TO 2500 years old (checked carefully against the annual rings) and not be accurate further into the past.

I'm not sure how else I can put it. Without a basic understanding of radioactive decay, it's easy to dismiss the evidence simple because you don't understand it. But again, there is NO way that the numerous forms of dating applied to the ice cores could correspond for recent dates (where precipitation and layers can be confirmed), then LOOK like they worked for earlier layers, but suddenly cut off at 6000 years. You can always shut your eyes, plug your ears and shout "GODDIDIT" but it doesn't affect the evidence in any way.
 
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Deamiter

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ThaiDuykhang said:
It's not the absolute amount of C14 that matters. it's the relative level of C14 to C12 that counts. and CO2 mainly if not all comes from atmosphere.
The first part is right. It's the ratio that counts. But the C12 and C14 levels have been sampled at many depths in many places. Quite simply, there is NO consistant ratio in the ocean. Very deep places have CO2 that hasn't seen the atmosphere for millenia. The C14 ratio reflects this. Surface areas have a similar ratio to the atmosphere. Of course currents mix the two regions in unpredictable ways making it utterly impossible to use the ratios for dating.

So yes, a lot of CO2 comes from the atmosphere (though a lot also comes directly from fish and other sea creatures -- in fact more oxygen comes OUT of the ocean than diffuses in FROM the atmosphere). But it's not well mixed. There are places that have CO2 that have been sitting for millenia -- some of that water upwells in ocean currents and lowers the surface ratios in certain places. This effect is well documented. Going on about CO2 diffusing into the atmosphere is pretty pointless when that's never been debated.
It's really not that confusing. When there ARE meters of snow, the upper layers insulate the lower and daily temperature creates very obvious layers. I've noticed this every year in snow drifts around my house.

But when there is VERY little precipitation (hint -- these places are where ice cores come from) then the ice crystals on the surface have a very long time to form. Ice crystals form very differently depending on temperature, so there is an obvious yearly cycle. The yearly cycle also fluctuates as the Earth's overall climate changes.

Again, this has been calibrated in a number of ways. Ash from volcanic eruptions has been found in the layers corresponding to the date of significant volcanic eruptions. C14 dating has confirmed the dates of layers down to 100,000 years. Sunspot activity increases the presence of certain isotopes in 11-year cycles. This has been observed. There's at least a dozen other ways -- many of which were cited in the paper I linked to. I know reading isn't a whole lot of fun, but if you're interested in the truth, you might consider a bit of research rather than insisting that we break everything down into tiny chunks!
Do snails eat rocks? all material in a snail comes from its everyday diet which doesn't include rocks right?
Of COURSE snails eat rock. In fact, most animals eat quite a bit of rock and dirt in their everyday diets -- it's only us humans that are so picky and won't eat off the ground.

Here's a paper with many citations that show exactly where the bicarbonate for the snail's shell comes from. This time, if you still don't believe it, why don't you look up the citations yourself -- it only takes a couple seconds in Google (or better -- scirus) and you can avoid wasting our time asking for sources we've already given you.
http://www.radiocarbon.org/Subscribers/Fulltext/v41n2_Goodfriend_149.html

I don't know if it's a condidate for dating in the first place and it's not important. the importance is they dated using the "right" procedure and got a wrong result.
I've worked with an instrument that measures the salinity of a solution to within a very precise range. Yet if I stick the leads of the instrument onto a dry salt crystal, it will give me wildly false results even though I KNOW the answer should be around 100%

You can always USE an instrument on specimines for which it's results are invalid. But if you ask a scientist about dating an arctic seal or a snail shell, they'll tell you up front that the date will be wrong. This is even stipulated in the submissions manual of every dating lab I've ever looked into.

Now if you don't follow their guidelines, they don't have ANY problem with taking your money and giving you their C14 reading. But to claim that the reading accurately gives a calibrated date would be a lie.

1. No there's not. In the scientific community we've got these wonderful devices called "microscopes." They let you magnify things so you can see even individual cells. Of course there are cases (like after a volcano -- like I mentioned before) where a tree does NOT grow for a few years due to damage. Using a wide range of specimines will account for this and even give you a better idea of when to EXPECT to have to look for a couple missing rings.

2. It's not arbitrary at all. You're matching PATTERNS, not just the 5th ring or the 10th. If they SHOULD be matched on the 5th ring, if you put it on the 10th the patterns won't match up. Sure, you may be able to match 5 rings out of 100, but it's obvious that you've done it wrong.

Draw 100 lines on a piece of paper with slightly different spacing. Then cut the paper into strips perpendicular to the lines. Finally, cut the strips into overlapping lengths and mix them up.

Sure, you'll probably be ABLE to connect them arbetrarily -- especially in cases where the strips just BARELY overlap so there's only one or two lines overlapping. But trees used for dating generally have DOZENS of overlapping rings in extremely distinct patterns.

When I was younger, my parents brought me to the science museum and we were lucky enough to get in on a professional talk about this sort of connecting overlapping tree rings. We were shown one slide in particular with five samples that overlapped -- it was so obvious MY brother could have done it (he was five at the time).

Later, I went to my grandparents house like I said and tried it for myself. Again, it was obvious to ME -- an amateur where the lines fit together. A professional would have many more techniques and MUCH more experience!

So no, it's not arbitrary, and yes, scientists make sure to use hundreds of samples from different sites to make the chronology.

As has been shown to you IN THIS THREAD as well as in at least two outside links, independantly published data from different CONTINENTS fit together perfectly.
 
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Deamiter

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ThaiDuykhang said:
So you have read that site. why can't you produce any good argument?
Um... you asked me for a source where this data is put together because you apparently didn't believe it existed. I obliged.

You questioned my claims and asked for supporting data. I provided it. So now that you've got the supporting evidence for my claims, where is the good argument stating why this detailed analysis of tree-ring dating is invalid?

In case you DO feel like reading it rather than throwing out another blanket denial, here's the site again:
http://www.radiocarbon.org/Subscribers/Fulltext/v40n3_Kromer_1117.html
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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Find some source to indicate they're not layers just undistinguishable from your "anual layer" before continue. I'm a little bored refuting your un-supported claim.
you need to prove
1) those layers can be distinguished from "anual" layers
2) melting in a un-layered ice can create the layers resembles the one shown above
3) Hovind didn't see the layer himself nor he's informed by anyone who is expierenced with drilling in ice


Assuming earth is more than 6000 years is necessary for ice dating. Assuming earth is millions of years old is necessary for radiometric dating. even 10000 years isn't enough to radiometric dating to work. it still can't work now no matter how one calibrate it. if you believe calibration works it only proves radiocarbon dating doesn't work at all
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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1st you need source for you claim.
2nd you need to explain why professionals date the seal. it's a severe blow to their reputation.

I've given you my sources. where's yours? If you think tree can be joined accurately and used to calibrate radiocarbon dating, then why radiocarbon dating still date a fresh snail shell 20000 years old? You can choose joining tree ring is wrong or the radiocarbon dating is wrong. if you choose radiocarbon dating is wrong, let's discuss the earth is 6000 years old or 10000 years old.
 
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KerrMetric

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ThaiDuykhang said:
If you think tree can be joined accurately and used to calibrate radiocarbon dating, then why radiocarbon dating still date a fresh snail shell 20000 years old?

Don't you get it?

The snails in question were aquatic snails. Their carbon source was from underground water with dissolved limestone that has basically zero C14. Thus the erroneously old age. This effect is not only well known but was predicted ahead of time.
 
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shernren

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Chemical reaction doesn't distinguish C12 and C14. isotypes are equally likely to react with something else.

Yes. Sequestration will sequester C-12 and C-14 unselectively, i.e. a newly sequestered mass of carbon will display equilibrium C-14/C-12 ratios. However, the sequestered carbon will then undergo its own aging as a result of not interacting any further with the atmosphere. When the sequestered carbon re-enters the organic biosphere it will have already acquired a non-zero age as C-14 testable.

I really do not get what you are trying to imply here. Let me see if I can restate your argument in my own words.

1. C-14 and C-12 enter the ocean's waters at a ratio consistent with the atmospheric ratio.
2. The water with C-14 and C-12 sinks and ceases to interact with the atmosphere.
3. Even though the water is not reacting with the atmosphere, and the C-14 is being depleted without being replenished, the C-14/C-12 ratio remains the same.
4. Therefore researchers cannot blame inaccurate results on the nature of aquatic carbon, but on inherent inaccuracy in radiometric dating.

Part 3 is where I disagree with you. To me: let's say I lock a body of water with dissolved CO2 in an airtight container for 1,000 years. Over time the C-14 will decay while the C-12 will not. Therefore the C-14/C-12 ratio will decrease.

However, if I understand you right, after 1,000 years the C-14/C-12 ratio will still be the same. What physical processes cause this?
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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1. It's a land snail
2. whenever there's date from carbon dating there're C14 in it. failure to detect C14 means the sample is infinitely old
 
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ThaiDuykhang

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1. Sea is no more an airtight container than land. all obstacles in water have correspondents on land.
2. CO2 tends to solve in water more evenly than in air. In air it tends to fall on the bottom, where in water it takes the form of H2CO3 and distribute evenly.
 
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Deamiter

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Dead wrong. There is no even distribution. Do read the sources. Here are some with quotes.
http://gsa.confex.com/gsa/2004AM/finalprogram/abstract_80549.htm
Continuous production and sinking of fixed carbon out of the thin sunlit layer of the ocean maintains a steep vertical gradient in ocean CO2, keeping most of the carbon in the deep ocean and out of contact with the atmosphere.
http://www.ipsl.jussieu.fr/OCMIP/phase2/poster/monfray.pdf
Warning: pdf (poster)
Overall natural components show a sink at mid- or high-latitudes while strong CO2 source occurs near the
Equator (Figure 3). This effect drives a large transport of carbon within each hemisphere towards the
tropics.
http://www1.whoi.edu/overview.html

Is that enough, or do you still think that the ocean has homogeneous CO2 levels? Since most the deep-sea CO2 hasn't seen the atmosphere recently (say, thousands of years minimum) the C14 ratio drops. This is not suprising.
 
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Deamiter

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First of all, I do remember seeing Hovind's seminar. If I recall correctly, he never claimed to have seen the layers at the site of the buried airplane. He simply reported what one of the technicians at the site said. That tech was certainly experienced in drilling -- but with heat. They simply melted a hole through the ice to the airplane.

Taking ice cores is very different. They drill AROUND the core and take great pains to keep the core from melting and to avoid as much contamination as possible. The outer layers still exibit significant contamination, but the inside layers are very well preserved.

As you've requested sources, here's a very detailed account of precisely how ice cores are obtained. It discusses how the drilling works and how the ice cores are handled to avoid contamination:
http://gsc.nrcan.gc.ca/glaciology/national/drill_e.php


As for how annual rings are known to be annual, it's not just that there are two rings per year (though there is). And the snow doesn't melt -- it doesn't turn liquid and THEN crystalize. If you put a bunch of snow under pressure for years (more pressure = less time) it'll crystalize without ever getting near melting temperature. But that's not the point -- I just thought I'd clear up another misconception.

Anyway, scientists know that the layers are annual layers primarily through tests that correspond directly to the layers. It's not just some visual analysis. Here's some sources. And if you don't agree with the quote, PLEASE do look up the source. In this first case, they've even given you sources for who's been studying different aspects of the cores -- do type the names into Scirus and find the original papers yourself if you still disagree. I mean, you can always go on about how it's inconclusive, but if you've never bothered to do a basic internet search of scholarly sources, your dismissal is hardly authoritative.

http://www.gisp2.sr.unh.edu/MoreInfo/Ice_Cores_Past.htm
Here's a citation. My institution has access to some of these papers, but it would be illegal for me to reproduce them. You'd easily be able to access them for free at your local public university if this isn't enough for you.
http://www.agu.org/revgeophys/mayews01/node2.html
Abstract to Neftel 1985:
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v315/n6014/abs/315045a0.html
 
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