How old actually is the earth?

[daniel_seekingtruth]

okay i hope this is in the right section, i dont use this forum often.
anyhow, you know how its written in the bible that the world was created in 7 days (well six and on the seventh day God rested.) and therefore is debated by christians that the world is in the thousands of years old not millions.

how can we see stars that are millions of lightyears away? since light years is how far light travels in a year. that would mean that the light we were seeing, say from a star that is a million light years away, would have to exist for at least a million years.

does that make sense?

food for thought...

 

[SpaceMadness]

okay i hope this is in the right section, i dont use this forum often.
anyhow, you know how its written in the bible that the world was created in 7 days (well six and on the seventh day God rested.) and therefore is debated by christians that the world is in the thousands of years old not millions.

how can we see stars that are millions of lightyears away? since light years is how far light travels in a year. that would mean that the light we were seeing, say from a star that is a million light years away, would have to exist for at least a million years.

does that make sense?

food for thought...

It makes about as much sense as the rest of Genesis. In order for it to not be laughable one has to suspend/augment/deny certain natural forces at work today. Such things are brushed under the carpet with "giddidit" or "iunno, but its in the bible so it's true".

 

[AV1611VET]

Hi, Daniel ---

how can we see stars that are millions of lightyears away? since light years is how far light travels in a year. that would mean that the light we were seeing, say from a star that is a million light years away, would have to exist for at least a million years.

does that make sense?

Your question makes very good sense, but it does one thing wrong: it contradicts the amount of time the universe has been in existence according to the Bible (6013 years).

So let's see if we 'ministers of reconciliation' can reconcile this "contradiction" by looking at a Higher Sense.

Since distance equals velocity times time (d=vt), we assume that a light year, which is a measure of distance, is also an accurate measure of time as well.

In other words, neoscience (today's science) teaches that a light year is, by definition, both the measure of distance and time.

If you have something that is two light years apart, that assumes that at least two years have passed.

But what if, at one time, a star that is today 10,000,000 light years away was at one time, much closer.

Suppose just 6013 years ago, that star was only 1 or 2 light years away from the earth.

According to the Bible, God stretched the universe to its current size, pulling that star, in just a moment of time, to its current location 10,000,000 light years out.

One second, the star is 2 light years out, and one second later it is 10,000,000 light years out --- just like that.

For someone trained that nothing moves faster than light, this would appear impossible.

But we Christians know that, with God, all things are possible.

 

[SpaceMadness]

H
According to the Bible, God stretched the universe to its current size, pulling that star,[ in just a moment of time, to its current location 10,000,000 light years out.

One second, the star is 2 light years out, and one second later it is 10,000,000 light years out --- just like that.

For someone trained that nothing moves faster than light, this would appear impossible.

But we Christians know that, with God, all things are possible.

Even if god this this, we wouldn't be able to see the galaxies and stars now, since light traveling from these wouldn't have reached us yet.

 

[sandwiches]

One second, the star is 2 light years out, and one second later it is 10,000,000 light years out --- just like that.

A couple of glaring problems with your idea:
1) If that had happened, the light from when those stars were close by would've taken 2 years to get to us but after they had magically teleported away, it would've taken 10,000,000 light years to reach us.
2) Not all the lights we see in the sky are stars. Some lights are from galaxies and some of those are millions of light years in diameter.

 

[AV1611VET]

Even if god this this, we wouldn't be able to see the galaxies and stars now, since light traveling from these wouldn't have reached us yet.

Not if the light hitting the earth didn't recede as the star's distance increased.

In any event, I went into this in great detail with Jester4kicks on SN1987A, and won't do it again.

The conversation starts here: 1144.

 

[AV1611VET]

A couple of glaring problems with your idea:
1) If that had happened, the light from when those stars were close by would've taken 2 years to get to us but after they had magically teleported away, it would've taken 10,000,000 light years to reach us.

You are assuming a gap in the distance from where the star was on Day 4 of its creation, to where the star is now, after having been "magically teleported", as you confusingly put it.

If I place a dot on both ends of a rubber band, then stretch the rubber band, the dots don't "magically teleport."

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

okay i hope this is in the right section, i dont use this forum often.
anyhow, you know how its written in the bible that the world was created in 7 days (well six and on the seventh day God rested.) and therefore is debated by christians that the world is in the thousands of years old not millions.

What does God creating the universe in six days have to do with the age of the universe? No Jew or Christian that I know of claims the universe is six days old.

how can we see stars that are millions of lightyears away?

Good question.

We're not sure if they are millions of light years away.

How do we know which stars are close and which stars are far away?

"That's been the single greatest frustration in all of astronomy. Looking at the night sky, even with telescopes, you cannot tell distances. That's been the Holy Grail of astronomy for centuries." -- Michio Kaku, physicist, February 19th 2008

Even using parallax one can't determine distance, because the closest star Proxima Centauri is less than a second of arc.

"It's less than a second of arc. What's a second of arc? There's 360 degrees in a circle. In every degree there are sixty minutes of arc. And in every minute of arc there are sixty seconds of arc. Proxima Centauri has a parallax of .7 seconds of arc" -- Paul H. Nappenberger Jr., astronomer, February 19th 2008

Furthermore, how does one determine the distance to Cepheid Variable stars?

since light years is how far light travels in a year. that would mean that the light we were seeing, say from a star that is a million light years away, would have to exist for at least a million years.

We don't know how far light travels in a year because Special Relativity and the alleged constant c are 20th century myths.

In the 21st century is was determined that the speed of light is not a constant c.

Hau, L.V., et al., Light Speed Reduction To 17 Metres Per Second In An Ultracold Atomic Gas, Nature, 397, Pages 594-598, Feb 1999

Glanz, J., Scientists Bring Light to Full Stop, Hold It, Then Send It On It's Way, The New York Times, Jan 2001

Whitehouse, D., Light Stopped In Its Tracks, BBC, Jan 2001

Barry, P.L., and Philips, T., Sit. Speak. Good Photon!, NASA, Mar 2002

Researchers Break Record for Stopping Light In Its Tracks, New Scientist, 2503, Page 19, Jun 2005

What does this mean?

It means that objects in the universe are a lot closer than mainstream scientists assume.

"One of the frightening things I think for conventional astronomers is to accept the fact or to realize that these intrinsic redshifts of the quasars and peculiar galaxies and so forth, active galaxies, means that a lot of the things which we thought were out at great distance in the universe are very much closer in. And in fact you would have to say that what we call the local supercluster is much more crowded and contains many more objects than we previously thought" -- Halton C. Arp, astronomer, 2000

 

[AV1611VET]

We're not sure if they are millions of light years away.

I'll agree with this.

I'd like to switch to YEC, but there are some things I [blindly] agree with science about that won't let me.

In other words, my heart wants to go YEC, while my brain wants to go Embedded Age.

Right now, the biggest thing that keeps me from switching over is the age of things, but when I finally do sever the knot, I'll drop [agreeing with] the theory that stars are actually more than 6013 light years out as well.

 

[sandwiches]

You are assuming a gap in the distance from where the star was on Day 4 of its creation, to where the star is now, after having been "magically teleported", as you confusingly put it.

If I place a dot on both ends of a rubber band, then stretch the rubber band, the dots don't "magically teleport."

According to you, the stars moved from 2 yl to 10m yl in one second. Light would NOT be able to clear 10m yls in 1 second.

Also, like I said, some galaxies are millions or light years in length. So, even if a galaxy had been only 2 ly from earth, the light of the other end of those galaxies would've taken millions of lys to reach us. Also, let's not forget the impossibility of every star and galaxy being only 2 lys from Earth. "Nothing's impossible for my deity." Fine. Then just say 'goddidit with magic" and don't pretend to try to give us logically sound or scientifically viable explanations for magic.


Oh and please ignore Agonaces. He's just trolling. Of course we can determine how far astronomical objects are. He's just ignorant of how it's done and chooses to remain incredulous of what is actually possible with our knowledge. Here's a couple of sites to visit and learn how we measure distances across the cosmos:

The ABC's of Distances
Determining Distances to Astronomical Objects

 

[sandwiches]

So, in general unless we can pinpoint the travel history for every photon (which at this time violates the Uncertainty Principle,) we wont truly be able to figure out anything about the universe.

Of course this is little more than an exaggeration and is akin to saying unless we can map where every person who has ever lived has walked, we can't know anything about our history.

 

[AV1611VET]

According to you, the stars moved from 2 yl to 10m yl in one second. Light would NOT be able to clear 10m yls in 1 second.

Your lack of understanding what I'm saying is showing in your verb tense.

According to me, the stars* were moved from 2 yl to 10 myl in one second.

* The Telephone Game has already blown this out of proportion.

I originally said "a star" --- as in one.

It was just an example I was using.

You guys have no clue whatsoever as to what I'm saying, and I don't plan on going into this in-depth again.

I'd be spending too much time trying to get you guys around your self-manufactured, preconceived blind spots, than I would making my point.

Your verb tense above had the subtil effect of removing God from the picture, and now you want me to explain how this could have happened sans Deity --- and I promise you --- I'm not going through this again.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Photons are also subject to the effect of gravity

If photons have no mass as assumed that is utterly impossible.

F=ma.

0 times anything is 0.

which include dark matter

"It's not that most of the matter and energy in the universe is dark, but that most cosmologists are totally in the dark about the real nature of the universe." -- Wallace Thornhill, physicist, October 2006

 

[laconicstudent]

I was under the impression that the speed of light being exceeded was only due to relativistic effects and under most circumstances we won't observe photons regularly exceeding "c". Does that sound about right? Physics isn't my strong suit.

 

[laconicstudent]

Well, here is the freaky part. Technically we wouldn't ever be able to observe photons exceeding "c" because it would observe us observing it going at "c."

It would be like two hares in a race that are the same. There is a camera that tracks their speeds and travels at the speed of "c." Now, one of the hares gets boosters (energy) that allows it to go faster than the speed of the camera (tachyon).

The camera will NEVER observe the hare's progress, where it has been, etc. beyond the event at which the hare went just past at the speed "c." So, until we can figure out a way to observe tachyons, we cant prove or discount their existence.


There are some cases where particles can travel faster than light here on this earth, but they have to be in denser medium than air. The neutrino (considered dark matter) is one of the closest particle to a photon. It is close to massless, but much lighter than an electron. And, it travels very close to the speed of light. However, if you put a neutrino in heavy water and shine light in, the neutrino will not only go faster than photons in the water, but it will create a "photonic shockwave" and turn the water blue (like a blue sonic boom). It's called the Cherenkov phenomenon.

In general, "speed of light" is meaningless. What matters is what the media/influences are for the particle.

I see...... At least I think I do.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Hi, Daniel --- Your question makes very good sense, but it does one thing wrong: it contradicts the amount of time the universe has been in existence according to the Bible (6013 years).

So let's see if we 'ministers of reconciliation' can reconcile this "contradiction" by looking at a Higher Sense.

Since distance equals velocity times time (d=vt), we assume that a light year, which is a measure of distance, is also an accurate measure of time as well.

In other words, neoscience (today's science) teaches that a light year is, by definition, both the measure of distance and time.

If you have something that is two light years apart, that assumes that at least two years have passed.

But what if, at one time, a star that is today 10,000,000 light years away was at one time, much closer.

Suppose just 6013 years ago, that star was only 1 or 2 light years away from the earth.

According to the Bible, God stretched the universe to its current size, pulling that star, in just a moment of time, to its current location 10,000,000 light years out.

One second, the star is 2 light years out, and one second later it is 10,000,000 light years out --- just like that.

For someone trained that nothing moves faster than light, this would appear impossible.

But we Christians know that, with God, all things are possible.

Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

 

[USincognito]

Photons are also subject to the effect of gravity, which include dark matter, and depending on certain medium can travel at tachyon speeds (faster-than-light travel.)Q

If photons have no mass as assumed that is utterly impossible.

You should have spent more time looking up the experiment Einstein won the Nobel for and less looking up random quotes.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

"Mass" causing gravity is essentially a carryover from Newtonian theory.

Newtonian so-called theory is not a theory at all but a falsified hypothesis.

"It was only the downfall of Newtonian theory in this century which made scientists realize that their standards of honesty had been utopian." -- Imre Lakatos, philosopher, 1973

In general relativity, the stress-energy tensor that can be thought of as the "source" of gravity in GR. Energy, momentum, and pressure can all contribute terms to the stress-energy tensor, so they can all contribute to gravity.

"The theory [General Relativity] is like a beggar clothed in purple whom ignorant people take for a king ... its exponents are brilliant men but they are metaphysicists, not scientists..." -- Nikola Tesla, physicist, July 1935

"Einstein’s theory of gravity is the craziest explanation of the phenomenon imaginable." -- Wallace Thornhill, physicist, 2001

Gravity itself isn't really a force, but a curvature of space-time.

What is space-time?

Does space-time exist?

Can you show me some space-time so that I might observe it and experiment upon it in the laboratory?

If space-time exists, how do you know it's curved?

If space-time has a shape then what color is it?

How exactly does matter curve space-time? What is the mechanism?

 

[sandwiches]

Your lack of understanding what I'm saying is showing in your verb tense.

According to me, the stars* were moved from 2 yl to 10 myl in one second.

* The Telephone Game has already blown this out of proportion.

I originally said "a star" --- as in one.

It was just an example I was using.

The stars moved according to you. Whether they moved on their own or were moved by some intelligent being is completely irrelevant to my point and an obvious strawman.

So, now you're saying that all visible galaxies and stars wouldn't have also had to be close by at Earth's creation for your little idea to be viable? At least you're now agreeing with me that your idea is simply implausible.

You guys have no clue whatsoever as to what I'm saying, and I don't plan on going into this in-depth again.

I'd be spending too much time trying to get you guys around your self-manufactured, preconceived blind spots, than I would making my point.

Your verb tense above had the subtil effect of removing God from the picture, and now you want me to explain how this could have happened sans Deity --- and I promise you --- I'm not going through this again.

hehe
At least it'll save you all the mental acrobatics and logic twisting only to have you admit that you have no evidence for any of it. And it'll save us all the time to have to wade through your usual pseudo-scientific explanations where in the end you just say 'goddidit' when cornered.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

You should have spent more time looking up the experiment Einstein won the Nobel for and less looking up random quotes.

Nobel Prizes have been awarded for things that were later refuted.

Dowdye, E.H. Jr., Time Resolved Images from the Center of the Galaxy Appear To Counter General Relativity, Astronomische Nachrichten, Volume 328, Issue 2, Pages 186-191, Feb 2007