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How necessary is Apostolic Succession to you?

Mar 11, 2012
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the Anglican church has always been divided on the role of Apostolic Succession and role for true and valid sacraments. I was wondering what the people here thought of it.

on a personal note I don't care if a church has it or not. Apostolic Succession is not in the bible nor is it in the 39 Articles. I believe we Anglicans have it, but to me it's a unimportant factor in creating a 'Valid Sacrament'

I do believe in the orders of Bishop, Priest and Deacon but just no the Apostolic Succession as taught by the Roman Catholic Church and some Anglo-Catholic Churches
 

MichaelNZ

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I for one definitely believe in it. If you believe that bishops and priests are just leaders of Christian communities and do not have the power to consecrate the Eucharist and absolve sins then it doesn't matter.
 
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Timothy

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I'm no longer convinced that the mechanistic notion makes any sense or matters.

Yup. Pretty much. It's nice and cool as a continuity thing, but I don't think it actually does anything much...
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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Well, I'm a new Anglican coming over from a Conservative Evangelical/Pentecostal background. To me, apostolic succession is "nice and cool as a continuity thing" but it isn't a major thing that attracted me to Anglicanism. So what did? Basically, the writings of such Anglican theologians as C.S. Lewis, N.T. Wright and Alister McGrath... and Lewis had a lot to do with my becoming a Christian in the first place.
 
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Well, I'm a new Anglican coming over from a Conservative Evangelical/Pentecostal background. To me, apostolic succession is "nice and cool as a continuity thing" but it isn't one of the things that attracted me to Anglicanism. So what did? Basically, the writings of such Anglican theologians as C.S. Lewis, N.T. Wright and Alister McGrath... and Lewis had a lot to do with my becoming a Christian in the first place.

that wonderful to hear. I'd love to hear what specifically CS Lewis and the others said that has made u want to become a Anglican? after all its a big jump from Pentecostal to Liturgical Anglican :)
 
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Izdaari Eristikon

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that wonderful to hear. I'd love to hear what specifically CS Lewis and the others said that has made u want to become a Anglican? after all its a big jump from Pentecostal to Liturgical Anglican :)
Well, I was never a "real" Pentecostal, i.e. not a true believer in all the denominational distinctives of my former Assemblies of God church (though I was and still am continuationist). I didn't join it because of the denomination but rather because, after years of being unchurched and inactive as a Christian, it seemed like the best local church, with the best pastor and congregation. I haven't had any real falling out with it, and I still like the community and may still visit sometimes. But I've changed, and am no longer comfortable being associated with American Evangelical culture, politics or theology.

I've always thought of myself as non-denominational, a C.S. Lewis "Mere Christian" with all the different streams of Christianity being rooms off the same hallway in the same house. Due to the influence of Lewis, Wright and a few others on my thinking, I've also considered myself kind of an honorary Anglican all the time I was in other churches. I especially like the diversity of thought Anglicanism accepts, focusing on what makes us all Christ-followers together as the main thing; thus it is a very non-denominational denomination. I've enjoyed occasional liturgical services as a change of pace over the years, so they're not that strange to me. And to continue with Lewis' metaphor, it is in the rooms that one will find a comfy chair, a fireplace, refreshments and hopefully good company, so staying in the hallway forever isn't the best option.
 
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Well, I was never a "real" Pentecostal, i.e. not a true believer in all the denominational distinctives of my former Assemblies of God church. And I didn't join it because of the denomination but rather because, after years of being unchurched and inactive as a Christian, it seemed like the best local church, with the best pastor and congregation. And really it's hard to tell it apart from charismatic-friendly non-denominational. I haven't had any real falling out with it, and I still like the community and may still visit sometimes. But I've changed, and I am no longer comfortable being associated with American Evangelical culture, politics or theology.

I've always thought myself as basically non-denominational, a C.S. Lewis "Mere Christian" with all the different streams of Christianity as being, as Lewis put it, rooms off the same hallway, in the same house. Due to the influence of Lewis, Wright and a few others on my thinking, I've also considered myself kind of an honorary Anglican all the time I was in other churches. I especially like the diversity of opinion Anglicanism accepts, focusing on what makes us all Christ-followers together as the main thing; thus it is a very non-denominational denomination. I've enjoyed occasional liturgical services as a change of pace over the years, so they're not that strange to me. And to continue with Lewis' metaphor, it is in the rooms that one will find a comfy chair, a fireplace, refreshments and hopefully good company, so staying in the hallway forever isn't the best option.

I think that's one of the best 'conversion' stories (if that word is appropaite in this context) I have ever heard.
not being an American I cannot say I know what 'American Evangelical culture, politics or theology" Is really, but I would imagine it is similar to the reason why Im not a Catholic anymore. despite my love for the religion that nurtured my faith from baptism I felt there was a culture within catholicism that I find disturbing, it's rejection of women as suitable canidantes for priesthood (which I know first hand seems to attract alot of misogynistic men) and the church seems to be involved in alot of 'hate' towards minority groups. these are things that I wish to distance myself.
 
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AndrewRD

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I would agree that Apostolic Succession, while a very good thing to try to preserve is not critical in the sense of valid sacraments, nor in being a better or truer Christian.

It cannot be related to the validity of the sacraments, because to suggest otherwise would be suggesting that a man may do something (in this case, have a 'lack of credentials' for lack of a better word) that would nullify God's grace in the act of communion. As though two men, both faithful and true believers, both presented the communion, but God refused to work through one because he wasn't part of the long apostolic succession. Such a concept flies in the face of the God we know from the scriptures.

And secondly, I refuse to equate successful apostolic succession (say that three times fast, hah) with being a somehow superior Christian, because to do such would be elevating ourselves--along with the Roman Catholics and Orthodox--inherently above all other Christian groups, which seems dangerously close to a form of pride to me, albeit collective pride.

It is useful in so far as it gives us a historic connection to the ancient church; but sound teaching and true faith just as easily do that.
 
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I would agree that Apostolic Succession, while a very good thing to try to preserve is not critical in the sense of valid sacraments, nor in being a better or truer Christian.

It cannot be related to the validity of the sacraments, because to suggest otherwise would be suggesting that a man may do something (in this case, have a 'lack of credentials' for lack of a better word) that would nullify God's grace in the act of communion. As though two men, both faithful and true believers, both presented the communion, but God refused to work through one because he was part of the long apostolic succession. Such a concept flies in the face of the God we know from the scriptures.

And secondly, I refuse to equate successful apostolic succession (say that three times fast, hah) with being a somehow superior Christian, because to do such would be elevating ourselves--along with the Roman Catholics and Orthodox--inherently above all other Christian groups, which seems dangerously close to a form of pride to me, albeit collective pride.

It is useful in so far as it gives us a historic connection to the ancient church; but sound teaching and true faith just as easily do that.

Love your statement bro! you articulated that better than I could have!
 
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PaladinValer

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the Anglican church has always been divided on the role of Apostolic Succession and role for true and valid sacraments. I was wondering what the people here thought of it.

It is necessary and has always been considered so.

on a personal note I don't care if a church has it or not. Apostolic Succession is not in the bible nor is it in the 39 Articles.

Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance.

Anglicanism has always held that Apostolic Succession is a necessity. The Puritans put to death St. Charles Stuart over episcopacy, which invariably includes Apostolic Succession.

I believe we Anglicans have it, but to me it's a unimportant factor in creating a 'Valid Sacrament'

That's a Lutheran idea, not an Anglican one.

I do believe in the orders of Bishop, Priest and Deacon but just no the Apostolic Succession as taught by the Roman Catholic Church and some Anglo-Catholic Churches

It has been taught by Anglicanism since day one.
 
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It is necessary and has always been considered so.



Fallacy of Appealing to Ignorance.

Anglicanism has always held that Apostolic Succession is a necessity. The Puritans put to death St. Charles Stuart over episcopacy, which invariably includes Apostolic Succession.



That's a Lutheran idea, not an Anglican one.



It has been taught by Anglicanism since day one.

well thats your opinion PaladinValer but it's isn't mine. many English reformers held Lutheran views on this. and unless it Apostolic succession is mentioned in the 39 articles I see no need to believe it.
The 39 articles are my only standard for what is Anglican position on theological issues. anything is secondary and of private opinion.
 
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and I'm sorry but I don't equate The episcopacy with apostolic succession. I agree with episcopacy and the three-fold ministry but why does that have to be an element of apostolic succession? afterall apostolic succession is not in the bible and came l8ter (though I freely acknowledge that it is early in christian history) but not every christian agreed that apostolic succession was the yard-mark to test someones Orthodoxy.
 
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PaladinValer

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well thats your opinion PaladinValer but it's isn't mine.

It also isn't historically Anglican.

many English reformers held Lutheran views on this. and unless it Apostolic succession is mentioned in the 39 articles I see no need to believe it.

1. Fallacy of Ignorance. Non-mention doesn't mean non-belief. The Chalcedonian Formula isn't in there either, yet Anglicans fully accept it.
2. What the Lutherans think about Apostolic Succession means nothing for we Anglicans. Furthermore, many Lutherans, particularly the Scandinavian churches, continued in the Apostolic Succession and we are in Full Communion with them because of it.

The 39 articles are my only standard for what is Anglican position on theological issues. anything is secondary and of private opinion.

That's the problem, because they are not the only Anglican standard. Your ideas are based on a false premise. You are ignoring the fact that the Chalcedonian Definition isn't found in the Articles yet it is absolutely a fundamental aspect of Anglican theology. In addition, there is also the Chicago-Lambeth Quadrilateral which is also a part of Anglican theology. The fact that in order for the Anglican Communion to be in Full Communion with another church that there must be Apostolic Succession is proof positive that it is a doctrine that is central and essential to Anglican theology, belief, and practice.

We are not in Communion with Presbyterians, Baptists, and certain Lutherans because of it. We are in Communion with certain Lutherans as well as the entire Utrecht Old Catholic Communion because of it, as well as a few other groups.
 
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Albion

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I'm no longer convinced that the mechanistic notion makes any sense or matters.

That's a good way of putting it. The CofE retained Apostolic Succession for practical reasons, and for such reasons I support it, but "necessary...?" No. It is not the case that the other extreme is acceptable to me, but since the question was only about Apostolic Succession, I liked your answer.
 
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While I do not think Apostolic Succession successfully manages to 100% keep out bad people from becoming priests, it does definitely set a certain level of requirements which I believe are essential.

With no apostolic succession, surely I can quite simply thrown on robes/a suit and dish out communion, calling myself a priest. That cannot be how it works. Within twenty years, my 'church' can have many priests, all ordained by me, making it feel more genuine. In another twenty years, people won't worry about the beginning because there is now a defined pattern of ordination and it must be God's Will. Sounds a little odd to me!
 
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Mockingbird0

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The "apostolic succession" rightly so-called is the ongoing guidance of the Holy Spirit.

The practical customs of
(a) allowing our bishops only to be made by other bishops, normally at least 3;
(b) having a formally ordained presbyterate (this is a departure from the earliest custom, where unlike the case for bishops and deacons, it seems one became an "elder" by a kind of osmosis rather than by formal ordination);
(c) requiring candidates for holy orders to undergo a rigorous discernment process, followed by several years of specialized education in our traditions

are ways of increasing the liklihood that we will maintain the essential part of the traditions we have received. To be blunt, these procedures make things less bad than they might otherwise be. Wacky or overly-eccentric teachers might make it harder for us to discern the Sprit's guidance. Our processes don't prevent all kooks from becoming priests, or all priests from becoming kooks, but the processes have been shown through the testing of time to work about as well as anything that might be offered in their place.
 
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R_A

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the Anglican church has always been divided on the role of Apostolic Succession and role for true and valid sacraments.
Has it?

on a personal note I don't care if a church has it or not. Apostolic Succession is not in the bible nor is it in the 39 Articles. I believe we Anglicans have it, but to me it's a unimportant factor in creating a 'Valid Sacrament'
How would you argue, then, that sacraments ever become valid?


I do believe in the orders of Bishop, Priest and Deacon but just no the Apostolic Succession as taught by the Roman Catholic Church and some Anglo-Catholic Churches
It's unfortunate that apostolic succession has been relegated to people with a romanizing perspective. Traditionally, classical Anglicans have had a very high view of the church and the bishop, and concomitantly, the Apostolic Succession.

I view it as very important. The Romans pride themselves on being able to trace themselves to the apostles, but the curious fact is that Anglicans too can have a direct lineage, unbroken, all the way to the Apostles. I would further argue that Anglicanism, sequestered far to the north from Rome, has preserved a line of Christianity that most closely resembled the Early Church.

Of course I know that everybody and their brother try to liken themselve to the early church, but none other than the Catholics and Orthodox have any connection with it. And both Catholics and Orthodox are nothing like the life and faith the Church Fathers describe in their writings. During the medieval period England was obviously under a theological shadow of Rome in many ways, and yet important critics of the Papacy in the whole Western world inevitably were from England -- Bede, Anselm, and others.

Then, during the Reformation, the Anglicans were given the temporal and theological liberty to return to the Church Fathers, something both the Catholics and and the radical Protestants did their utmost to refute.

The radical Protestants argued that the visible Church, properly speaking, died with the last Apostle in the 1st century AD (only to be resurrected in the 1600s). On the other hand, Catholics make a show for reverencing the Fathers, until they behold the countless patristic quotes where Peter's supremacy was denied, and sola scriptura was professed; at which point they turn away (and have always turned away) from the Church Fathers, and embrace the Pope as their one true bulwark.

All of the above was a long way of saying that there is an interesting, and special, historical line that runs through the English church, sequestered and far away, like I said, from most of the tumults of Rome, Byzantium, and wars that convulsed the Mediterranean. This line shows that the Anglican church was not something that 'began' in the 1500s. Rather, that it has connection to the original Church, that was given freedom to restore itself in the 1500s.

If we think of the Anglican church as in some physical way tethered, to the original Church!, the notion of apostolic succession takes on a vastly new meaning, and its importance or absence becomes much more significant.
 
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Albion

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Has it?


How would you argue, then, that sacraments ever become valid?



It's unfortunate that apostolic succession has been relegated to people with a romanizing perspective. Traditionally, classical Anglicans have had a very high view of the church and the bishop, and concomitantly, the Apostolic Succession.

But, after all is said and done, Gloriana is correct. The church has never held to Apostolic Succession in the way that the RCC OR any of the other Catholic churches do. No Anglican forumulary will contradict that, if you check.

One reason why the average Anglican gets the wrong impression, I think, is that Anglicans rightly took offense at the Papacy claiming that our orders are INvaid. Naturally we'd reject that, but there's quite a difference between insisting that our orders are valid and thinking that they are valid only because they match up with the Church of Rome's views on Apostolic Succession.
 
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