How narrow is the "narrow way"?

EmSw said:

Deeds of faith that lack charity are deeds devoid of faith. In themselves they are dead . . . . but deeds inspired by charity are alive.

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What about when the Father in heaven tells someone to do something, and they do it willingly ?

That is righteous, but not charity.

What if someone , inspired by what they think is charity, disobeys the Father ?
That is not righteous. It is sin.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

What about when the Father in heaven tells someone to do something, and they do it willingly ?

That is righteous, but not charity.

What if someone , inspired by what they think is charity, disobeys the Father ?
That is not righteous. It is sin.

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Don't think yourself out of what is said. Why is righteousness not charity? What would the Father tell someone to do something that is not charity? Think about it.

What charity is there in disobeying the Father? Who would think that?

EmSw said:

All I can say is that one who does not love his brother is a murderer and does not have eternal life abiding in him.

1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I'm fairly sure that 'hate' is referring to a 'continual hate'. I've been in many churches. I've seen hatred among the people there towards others. I'm sure you have also. I'm not talking about overt hatred, but hatred in how they act towards others.

If one has continual hatred towards others, he is a murderer, no two ways about it.

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Lets look at a few of the verses earlier in 1 John 3.
"5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him."

So once we are manifested unto Jesus, He is the one that takes our sins away. Meaning it is Christ in us that makes us not be slaves to sin, where the proof that someone is in Christ is that they "abideth in him" and will "sinneth" no more. To further illustrate the point, verse 8 says that whoever sins is of the devil. Now let me ask you; once you were saved, have you stopped sinning completely? Of course I already know your answer. If you are saying that we must not hate a brother to be saved, then verses 5, 6, and 8 clearly says we must not sin at all to be saved. Thankfully not so.

I get your point about a person who has continual hatred. This can be said about any persons sin they continually live in. Going back to the verse about "faith without works is dead", the point is that a truly faithful person in Christ will show "works", by works meaning that a repenting(change of heart) will happen and the person will move away from being a slave of hating their brother or any other sin and will change that with the love of God in us, which is our new slave.

You, me, or anyone will never be able to repent of our sins, any sins, on our own. Our human nature is simply a slave only to sin without Christ.

EmSw said:

This is said about Jesus -

Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Salvation is all about sins and Jesus saves us from our sins. Now, if sins can be eradicated in one fell swoop, then yes, salvation come immediately, conclusively, and in finality. However, I know of no one who doesn't have sins proceeding from their hearts. They can confess, believe, repent, read the Bible, and do all the good they can muster, but sin is still present.

As long as sin is still present in the heart and reigning over a person, we see that salvation from sins is continual, life-long procedure. Many have no desire to rid their hearts of sin; the are content being a slave to sin.

As I said earlier, we battle sins one at a time. We would be overwhelmed and defeated if we battle all of them at once. Therefore, it takes a lifetime for the Lord to show us our sins in His Light, and with His help, battle the sin He reveals to us.

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Forgive me if I seem a little biased or straightforward, but don't you see the contradiction in this thought? First you say salvation is all about sin and how Jesus saves us from our sins. Then you go on saying that we have to continually work on our sin to the end of our lives to keep our salvation, or something like that. Either its "Jesus saves us from our sins" or "Jesus gave us a chance to work on our sins to save us". Can you really have both?

No where in the Bible does it say that we have to keep eradicating our sins slowly over time to finally obtain, or to keep, our salvation(not sure which one you believe). Once we receive salvation, sin cannot take that away from us(look at Romans 8:35-39). Whether we can actually lose our salvation or not, I simply cannot answer because I don't know. What I do know is that if it is possible, the only way to lose salvation is that we willingly repent(change our hearts) against Jesus. But even then, with the Holy Spirit in you, I find that difficult.

EmSw said:

As long as sin is still present in the heart and reigning over a person, we see that salvation from sins is continual, life-long procedure. Many have no desire to rid their hearts of sin; the are content being a slave to sin.

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here is my version:
As long as sin is still present in the heart and reigning over a person, we see that repenting from sins is continual, life-long procedure. Many have no desire to rid of their hearts of sin, yet the Holy Spirit will convict us continually.

EmSw said:

Oh, it's very easy to do nothing. Doing nothing will produce nothing. If you have weeds in your yard, and only believe your yard is in perfect condition, you have nothing. It takes you getting out there and 'battling' those weeds, removing them. If you don't remove them, soon they will take over your yard.

To receive salvation, you not only come to the understanding you are a sinful person, but 'clean the inside of the cup' also. James says this -

James 4:8
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

First we draw near to God, and He will draw near to us. Once His Light enlightens us, we can see our sins and faults. Then we are to cleanse our hands and purify our hearts. Many don't come to the Light, for it exposes their sins.

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I can definitely understand your thought process of James 4:8. One thing I would like to note is that its important who James is writing to and whats he is trying to emphasize. James is talking to Christians Jews who are scattered throughout many nations (James 1:1). The point James is trying to make is similar to the Sermon on the Mount. James is trying to show their wickedness these Christian Jews walk in, and how they should be behaving if they truly follow Christ.

And to counter your argument, look at Galations 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."

A man is not justified by following the law. A man is not justified by not stealing, by not adultering, murdering. The only thing that justifies a person is by faith of Jesus Christ. Simply put, the law shows us our sin(Romans 7). Christ gives us a life to not be controlled by sin. By not being controlled by sin, I mean by trying to follow every law as best as we can, since committing one sin is just as bad as committing all sin (James 2:10). Therefore, we are committed as slaves to Christ so that we desire Him instead of the law. And when we desire Him, we desire to be good. We desire to love our brethren.

So here is my last thought. Our new desire for Christ is what brings us to repentance(a change of heart). Our repentance does not come from us wanting to be good, since we are inherently evil people always desiring to do evil.

EmSw said:

I appreciate you taking time to discuss these things with me in a civil and Christ-like manner.

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Your appreciation is appreciated. haha! Many tend to take what I say the wrong way, like I am trying to one up them. May God richly bless you with a heart of peace and joy in Christ, my brother.

Clarify please, when (or for who) does this change ? (you may have already said, but this just stood out like a sore throbbing red swollen thumb..)

joshlete said:

Our repentance does not come from us wanting to be good, since we are inherently evil people always desiring to do evil.

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yeshuaslavejeff said:

Clarify please, when (or for who) does this change ? (you may have already said, but this just stood out like a sore throbbing red swollen thumb..)

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Forgive me if I am wrong. I am not going to say what I believe is the absolute truth. I am simply writing what I believe God has taught me.

When I wrote that, I was talking about a person before they have come to Christ and received Christ in their heart into salvation. Although even after receiving Christ, our flesh will still fight against sin our entire lives. Once we have received Christ, the body becomes dead (though still alive with a beating heart, it becomes dead from sin). A good demonstration of this is Romans 8. Once we are saved, we walk after the spirit, we live for Christ spiritually, while our flesh will still live in sin. We to no longer live of the mind of flesh, but the mind of the Spirit.

Does that make sense?

GO DO ! / ooops > GOOD ! (both - 'go do'(typed too fast) right , and good )

joshlete said:

....
Does that make sense?

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(yes)

one thing we should always remember when speaking of Grace is also the Wrath God !!

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

DaveM said:

one thing we should always remember when speaking of Grace is also the Wrath God !!

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

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I definitely agree. One will not see the need for Christ if they don't understand they will receive God's wrath without Jesus.

DaveM said:

James 2:20
Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

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In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, (James 2:14) then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

James 2:26
For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

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In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

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In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the sense in which God was "justified." He was "shown to be righteous".

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

DaveM said:

one thing we should always remember when speaking of Grace is also the Wrath God !!

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

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I often hear works-salvationists quote John 3:36 in the NASB and "stress" the word "obey" to imply that we are saved by obedience/works. In regards to "does not obey the Son" in the New American Standard translation of the Bible, this does not mean that receiving eternal life is received based on the merits of our obedience/works which follows believing in the Son, but obey by choosing to believe in the Son. If John wanted to make obedience the central theme in salvation here, he would have said: "He who believes and obeys the Son has eternal life," but that is not what John said. To obey the Son here is to choose to believe in the Son.

The King James Version renders this same verse as: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that "believeth not the Son" shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. The NIV says "rejects the Son" and the CSB says, "refuses to believe in the Son." The Greek word translated as "believeth not" in that verse is apeitheo and it means: "not believe, disobedient, obey not, unbelieving." Strong’s definition of apeitheo is "to disbelieve willfully and perversely." In the context of 3:36, to "not obey the Son" means to reject the Son by refusing to believe in the Son.

There is simple blindness to personal sin, rebellion, impurity in one phrase.
"I am a sinner who believes in Jesus but refuse to listen or obey Him."

A fool says in his heart, God does not mind my behaviour, because He just sees
Christ not me. When it is truth and Jesus looking at the husk of hypocracy, lostness
and sin, there will be no arguments.

Jesus came so that we can righteous walk, like He did.
He came to bring us victory, through discipline, faithfulness, discipleship, sacrifice,
faith, hope and love. What drives us forward, in repentance, humbleness and grace
is the cross, the suffering and pain, which opens the door to heaven, because through
our failures we gain insight as to the whys and causes, and change, grow and become
the children of God we are called to be.

The narrow way is believing Jesus, that the road to life is through applying the very
words and principles He commanded us to follow.

Some say they are saved, though they do not live a saved life. The conviction of sin
and failure they feel is not the reproving work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts, rather
the enemy lying about God does not care, and has rejected them. But in truth
the enemy is lying to them about their sin, it does matter, and if they do not deal
with who they are and learn to let God change them in obedience, they are doomed
to destruction, because they have not passed from death to life.

A rescuer offers hope on first meeting, but rescue is only made true when the
rescued follows the rescuer. To refuse to follow is to reject the rescue.

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. 1 Cor 11:1
Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy
1 Cor 14:1
May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Gal 6:14
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10
he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12

To listen to Jesus is a hard, sacrificial, painful road that leads to life, but the other is to be lost in bitterness, hatred and sin, and finally to be destroyed. Which is wiser to follow?

Valetic said:

Is the "narrow way" simply BEING born again?

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Many NT verses prove each of these spiritual truths:
Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers stay righteous through their obedience
Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
Believers must love, forgive, not judge or condemn
Believers must be victorious overcomers
One full page of Scripture verses is available for almost every one of these topics!

Believers are human beings, prone to weaknesses.

BCsenior said:

Many NT verses prove each of these spiritual truths:
Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers stay righteous through their obedience
Believers faith must endure until the end of their lives
Believers keep salvation by repenting of their sins
Believers were chosen and called to live holy lives
Believers must love, forgive, not judge or condemn
Believers must be victorious overcomers
One full page of Scripture verses is available for almost every one of these topics!

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Jesus wasn’t even mentioned in anyone of these “truths.”

Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31 “And brought them out and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, BELIEVE ON the Lord JESUS CHRIST and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

The only truth of yours that is correct is the 5th one down. Believers are indeed called to live holy lives, for we are in created in Christ Jesus unto good works, that we should walk in them (Ephesians 2:10), but we are saved by grace through faith, and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

You are adding to the gospel by saying a person’s personal holiness is a requirement for salvation when scripture clearly says “There is none righteous, no, not one,” and that “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” The only righteousness we must have to be saved is the righteousness of Jesus Christ, because salvation is a free gift bought and paid for by Him alone (Romans 5:18). We receive his righteousness by believing on him, in the same way that Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness (Romans 4:3).

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Jesus wasn’t even mentioned in anyone of these “truths.”

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Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers stay righteous through their obedience

We have threads here in this forum for these 2 topics.
You are invited to read them and be enlightened.
For you do need to grow in the faith, don't you?

BCsenior said:

Believers stay righteous by practicing righteousness
Believers stay righteous through their obedience

We have threads here in this forum for these 2 topics.
You are invited to read them and be enlightened.
For you do need to grow in the faith, don't you?

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A Christian's righteousness is that of the Lord. A Christian's justification comes from the Lord alone, and not of himself. A person is commanded to fear the Lord, and depart from evil; but we are not righteous of our own efforts. We are made righteous, and once made righteous by God, we are forever righteous because of him.

A person can try to practice righteousness and obedience to the commands and statutes of God, but they do not do it for justification and eternal life. They try because they love the Lord their God, and they seek to walk humbly before him; however, the fact of the matter is, that practicing righteousness and being obedient are not what make us righteous.

"For there is not a just man upon earth that doeth good, and sinneth not." Ecclesiastes 7:20.

"Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?" Proverbs 20:9.

We know that he who doeth righteousness is born of him (1 John 2:29), we also know that he who doeth righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7); but we are not made righteous by what we do (Ephesians 2:9), we are not made righteous by our obedience. For it was the obedience of one that brought the free gift of justification to all men (Romans 5:18), not the obedience of many. It is He whose righteousness we must have, by faith, that we may know him and his resurrection (Philippians 3:9-10), and not our own righteousness. We practice righteousness and keep his commandments because we love him (John 14:21), but we know that he first loved us (1 John 4:19); yet we do not so perfectly, as our Father in heaven is perfect, so we must confess our sins and seek forgiveness (1 John 1:9). We are able to know if someone is born of God by their actions; but that person's actions does not make him righteous.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

A Christian's righteousness is that of the Lord. A Christian's justification comes from the Lord alone, and not of himself. ...
A person can try to practice righteousness and obedience to the commands and statutes of God, but they do not do it for justification and eternal life.

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Sorry, but ...
You stand against many of the NT Scriptures because
you have been brainwashed into false doctrines!
You talk as if you cannot lose your salvation!

Spiritual Truth is ONLY for those who have
eyes to see and ears to hear.

BCsenior said:

Sorry, but ...
You stand against many of the NT Scriptures because
you have been brainwashed into false doctrines!
You talk as if you cannot lose your salvation!

Spiritual Truth is ONLY for those who have
eyes to see and ears to hear.

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You talk as if you don't even believe in Christ.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

You talk as if you don't even believe in Christ.

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Do I really? ... No, I talk as if I am NOT a Baptist.
Sorry, but you have been deceived in several areas.

BCsenior said:

Do I really? ... No, I talk as if I am NOT a Baptist.
Sorry, but you have been deceived in several areas.

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You can't even provide a theological argument against anything I said. All you can say is that I'm wrong. Good luck persuading anybody with that.