How Many Of You Are Telling The Truth ...?

savedandhappy1 said:

Please give the scripture where Jesus said that shellfish.....................well not real sure what you are trying to say that Jesus indicated otherwise on, sorry.

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lol...
read her post I was replying to....she said OT laws are no longer in effect, and I stated Jesus indicated otherwise.

savedandhappy1 said:

So who are wer really in your opinion? Are we not Children of God, and as such are we not to follow His word?

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Given that I'm an atheist, I'm sure you can deduce what my opinion is of us being children of god.

So as an outsider looking in, I have to say that even if there was a god, how would you know who or what this god is? Do I believe the bible, the quran, or any of the other countless religous texts out there? They all make different claims, and none of them have anything to substantiate themselves, other than to have faith (which is akin to playing russian roulette with your soul- you have no proof for any of these religions to make an intelligent decision, so what if you place faith in the wrong one? Or, alternatively, would I go to christian heaven and muslim hell??)

If there is a god, and if he is benevolent as most claim, then he is above the petty nonsense of religion. He would determine your fate by looking in your heart, not by which religous book you prefer to read. He probably laughs at the people who claim Ghandi is in hell because he wasn't a christian.

In summary, we are all people, with an obligation to not interfere with other people's quest for inner peace. God is a tool some of us use to get that inner peace. God is also a tool some of us use to tear others down to glorify ourselves.

Hope that answers your question better.

When you say to get out of the Bible and live in the real world..................could you maybe speak alittle more to what you are meaning?

We are told that we are in this world but we aren't to be part of it, so I was just wondering what you were for sure meaning by that statement. I have listed a few scriptures which speak to our relationship to the world, some spoken by the Lord, and was wondering what your thoughts on them are? Thanks!

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What I meant by "get out of the Bible and live in the real world" is that today's society is nothing like what the world was like 2000 years ago. We are now much more advanced, enlightened, which has helped (most) of us shed the old superstitions.

savedandhappy1 said:

Primitive socal construct, hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, I never thought of God, Jesus and/or the Holy Ghost as primitive.

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Neither did I. Humanity's understanding of God, however...

This I guess is kind of like how some want the church to change because people and issues have changed, which would probably be ok if it wasn't for the fact that we are told He doesn't change.

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I think the Western concept of God not changing is mostly correct; however, humanity's understanding of god constantly changes.

Calling someone a liar, hater, bigot, religious person, fundamenalist, conservative because they understand the Bible to be clear on the issue of homosexuality, and believe it to be a sin is ................................................well it seems childish to me. That is just me though, and hopefully someone will be able to tell me one of these days how those names have anything to do with what the Lord calls a sin.

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I don't believe anyone here has been called those things for the reason you cite by anyone else here.

They maybe could tell me at the same time how not wanting someone to go to hell is hateful?

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I suppose that depends on the reasons someone thinks someone is 'going to hell'.

So what does love mean to you? If you could show me, from the Bible, why you think that is what it means................ well that could be very helpful in my attempt to understand.

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In scripture of course 1 Cor 13 is the main source for information on Love in general; for the Eros variety Song of Solomon is the place to look.

I'm not a fundamentalist so of course I look for other sources of wisdom on such questions. Erich Fromm, Viktor Frankl, and Leo Buscaglia are three from the 20th Century which come to mind. Love of a spouse or of children often amounts to putting them before oneself.

Ishida said:

Only fundies use scripture! Or something like that..

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the only ones that use it like the hearing impaired use sign anyhow.

I will not disagree with that. But who is rejecting who?

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I do not believe those who defy convention to love unconventionally reject God at all.


"At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality." - Ernesto Che Guevara

onemessiah said:

lol...
read her post I was replying to....she said OT laws are no longer in effect, and I stated Jesus indicated otherwise.

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Thank you, sorry for the misunderstanding.

onemessiah said:

Given that I'm an atheist, I'm sure you can deduce what my opinion is of us being children of god.

So as an outsider looking in, I have to say that even if there was a god, how would you know who or what this god is? Do I believe the bible, the quran, or any of the other countless religous texts out there? They all make different claims, and none of them have anything to substantiate themselves, other than to have faith (which is akin to playing russian roulette with your soul- you have no proof for any of these religions to make an intelligent decision, so what if you place faith in the wrong one? Or, alternatively, would I go to christian heaven and muslim hell??)

If there is a god, and if he is benevolent as most claim, then he is above the petty nonsense of religion. He would determine your fate by looking in your heart, not by which religous book you prefer to read. He probably laughs at the people who claim Ghandi is in hell because he wasn't a christian.

In summary, we are all people, with an obligation to not interfere with other people's quest for inner peace. God is a tool some of us use to get that inner peace. God is also a tool some of us use to tear others down to glorify ourselves.

Hope that answers your question better.





What I meant by "get out of the Bible and live in the real world" is that today's society is nothing like what the world was like 2000 years ago. We are now much more advanced, enlightened, which has helped (most) of us shed the old superstitions.

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Thank You for explaining your beliefs, and I'm sorry you feel that faith and trust in God, who sent His son to pay for our sins is just an old superstition.

I will pray that your heart will be open to the knocking of the Lord. I don't mean this in any offensive way, and I hope you will not take it that way.

Again, thank you.

savedandhappy1 said:

Thank You for explaining your beliefs, and I'm sorry you feel that faith and trust in God, who sent His son to pay for our sins is just an old superstition.

I will pray that your heart will be open to the knocking of the Lord. I don't mean this in any offensive way, and I hope you will not take it that way.

Again, thank you.

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No brother, not at all. That's nothing to be offended over.
This may sound strange coming from me, but I actually don't completely rule out the possibility of god. I just think it's highly, highly, highly unlikely he exists. Plus I'm skeptical by nature, so I need to be convinced of something before I accept it.
But, thanks for the kind words, the gesture is most definitely appreciated!

Texas Lynn said:

Neither did I. Humanity's understanding of God, however...

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I see.

Texas Lynn said:

I think the Western concept of God not changing is mostly correct; however, humanity's understanding of god constantly changes.

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I believe man wants to change who God is so that they can continue to live in the sinful states that they believe make them happy, and that saddens me.

Texas Lynn said:

I don't believe anyone here has been called those things for the reason you cite by anyone else here.

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I have been away for most of a month, due to the death of my mother, and some other factors, so I am not sure who all is coming to this section now but can assure you that those names are used alot. Can I ask what reason you see as to why those names are called, and why I think you believe it to be ok. Sorry, if I am misunderstanding your answer.

Texas Lynn said:

I suppose that depends on the reasons someone thinks someone is 'going to hell'.

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What reasons should we not speak of? And even though we believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that those things will cause someone to end up in hell we should not love them enough to say it because it isn't PC?

Texas Lynn said:

In scripture of course 1 Cor 13 is the main source for information on Love in general; for the Eros variety Song of Solomon is the place to look.

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Hmmmmm, interesting 1 Cor. 13 speaks of exercising our gifts in love, and so I'm not sure that really covers the full meaning of love that we are to know and show.

The first two set of scriptures I have listed to me speak of love. We are to restore those who have fallen away, and we are to bear one another's burdens, which makes it alittle hard to close our eyes and as some say mind our own business.

Gal. 6:1-5
1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.
2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
3 For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
4 But let each one examine his own work, and then he will have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
5 For each one shall bear his own load.

James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.

Also, I have listed some scriptures below which speak of correction, rebuke, reproof, and exhortation, and am wondering what you think we are to do with them? I also listed definitions for those words, and wonder your thoughts.

Qualities of a Sound Church
Titus 2:1-15
1 But as for you, speak the things which are proper for sound doctrine: 2 that the older men be sober, reverent, temperate, sound in faith, in love, in patience; 3 the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things—
4 that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.
6 Likewise, exhort the young men to be sober-minded, 7 in all things showing yourself to be a pattern of good works; in doctrine showing integrity, reverence, incorruptibility, 8 sound speech that cannot be condemned, that one who is an opponent may be ashamed, having nothing evil to say of you.
9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. 11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
15 Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.

Main Entry: ex·hort Pronunciation: \ig-&#712;zo&#775;rt\ Function: verb Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French exorter, from Latin exhortari, from ex- + hortari to incite — more at yearn Date: 15th century transitive verb : to incite by argument or advice : urge strongly <exhorting voters to do the right thing> intransitive verb : to give warnings or advice : make urgent appeals
— ex·hort·er noun

2 Tim 3:10-17
10 But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, love, perseverance,
11 persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra—what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12 Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Main Entry:
re·proof Pronunciation: \ri-&#712;prüf\ Function: noun Etymology: Middle English repref, reprofe, from Anglo-French reproefe, from reprover Date: 14th century
: criticism for a fault : rebuke

Main Entry: cor·rec·tion Pronunciation: \k&#601;-&#712;rek-sh&#601;n\ Function: noun Date: 14th century: the action or an instance of correcting: as a: amendment, rectification b: rebuke, punishment c: a bringing into conformity with a standard d: neutralization, counteraction <correction of acidity>

1 Tim 5:20-25
20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.
21 I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality.
22 Do not lay hands on anyone hastily, nor share in other people’s sins; keep yourself pure.
23 No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach’s sake and your frequent infirmities.
24 Some men’s sins are clearly evident, preceding them to judgment, but those of some men follow later.
25 Likewise, the good works of some are clearly evident, and those that are otherwise cannot be hidden.

2 Tim 4:1-5
1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:
2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;
4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

As we see in the scriptures we are to urge strongly, give warnings, urgently appeal and to incite by argument or advice. So if a person does this, as the scriptures tell us to do, why is that not love? Why would those which try and follow these scriptures be a hater, bigot, etc.? In your opinion.

Texas Lynn said:

I'm not a fundamentalist so of course I look for other sources of wisdom on such questions. Erich Fromm, Viktor Frankl, and Leo Buscaglia are three from the 20th Century which come to mind. Love of a spouse or of children often amounts to putting them before oneself.

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So you believe that man has a better understanding then God when it comes to love? Does not the love shown by Jesus seem so much greater then anything that man can think of or do?

Dear TexasLynn,

Neither did I. Humanity's understanding of God, however...

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Don&#8217;t you mean humanism&#8217;s understanding of God? Humanity has varying understandings of God and gods. Much of humanity believes same-sex sex is error.

I will not say all fundamentalist Christians who attack homosexuals are liars when they claim they are motivated solely because "the BIIII-BBBLE says it is wrong". I will say the leaders of the religious right, cynical political manipulators all, are liars because by and large these are highly educated people who know better

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I would say they are right because they are speaking the truth that is the Bible. But is it healthy to accuse people of lying? Surely if we have opposite views of what is truth one of us is likely to be lying, I think we have to accept that. But of course that means if those you call the &#8216;religious right&#8217; are right and not liars that might make your view a lie.

savedandhappy1 said:

I believe man wants to change who God is so that they can continue to live in the sinful states that they believe make them happy, and that saddens me.

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That is what is occurring when extremists use religion to attack LGBTs and their families. they want a god which will smite those they hate.

I...can assure you that those names are used alot. Can I ask what reason you see as to why those names are called, and why I think you believe it to be ok.

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There are times when such things are factual. the sort of things right-wingers call LGBTs are no less offensive; right-wingers being called hatemongers, however, is essentially speaking the Truth to Power. I have never seen those terms used here for the reason you stated in the earlier post.

What reasons should we not speak of? And even though we believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that those things will cause someone to end up in hell we should not love them enough to say it because it isn't PC?

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It is your side advocating political correctness, not mine. If you believe anyone will go to heyell for being LGBT then you should, if you were a person of honor, say you would go there yourself and refuse to go to an evil hebbin with an evil god who would do such an evil thing. that is if you are a person of integrity only.

I have listed some scriptures below which speak of correction, rebuke, reproof, and exhortation, and am wondering what you think we are to do with them?

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They're fine in general. Used to wag fingers at LGBTs they are weapons of mass destruction.

So you believe that man has a better understanding then God when it comes to love?

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Since you do not know "God's" understanding and are incapable of understanding same the question is inappropriate.

Does not the love shown by Jesus seem so much greater then anything that man can think of or do?

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Perhaps. The notion that the sort of Christians using this forum to cudgel LGBTs is akin to an abusive spouse or parent claiming to act out of love however.

Phinehas2 said:

Don’t you mean humanism’s understanding of God?

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No. I used the correct term. Nice effort at crawfishin' though.

Dear Texas Lynn,
Then I dont see what you mean.
,
Much of humanity&#8217;s view of God is not primitive or that God is primitive. Humanism&#8217;s view of God is that God is a primitive idea.

I am also not sure what you meant by the &#8216;western concept of God not changing&#8217; God is the same yesterday, today and forever and Jesus was a Jew from what we &#8216;in the west&#8217; cal the &#8216;middle east&#8217; God is never changing according to God, not men.

On the subject of primitive, many post-Enlightenment, rationalist, atheist-existential thinkers have attributed belief in a god to human fear and inability to cope with an explanation for acts of God, ie earthquakes etc. Interestingly when the disciples were in the boat and the storm rose up they were fearful for their lives, but when Jesus calmed the storm they were even more fearful of the power of God.

Phinehas2 said:

Much of humanity’s view of God is not primitive or that God is primitive. Humanism’s view of God is that God is a primitive idea.

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To a great extent this is true. Which explains why as a mass movement it never caught on.

I am also not sure what you meant by the ‘western concept of God not changing’ God is the same yesterday, today and forever and Jesus was a Jew from what we ‘in the west’ cal the ‘middle east’ God is never changing according to God, not men.

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Precisely my point; thank you. "Western culture" does not mean (just) Montana, but Europe, America, Australia, everywhere Abrahamic faith traditions prevail, and sometimes (including my citation) with Islamic culture excluded.

On the subject of primitive, many post-Enlightenment, rationalist, atheist-existential thinkers have attributed belief in a god to human fear and inability to cope with an explanation for acts of God, ie earthquakes etc. Interestingly when the disciples were in the boat and the storm rose up they were fearful for their lives, but when Jesus calmed the storm they were even more fearful of the power of God.

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Yes, the same can be said for all the pomp in our funeral practices. We are a fearful race and a good concept of diety provides calm in the storm. It may be the "there are no atheists in foxholes" kind of thing at work too.

[/quote]
OP, so very interesting.
Speaking as a former fundamentalist I can say a few things about the subject I guess.
For the most part I believed at the time I was doing God's will, standing for God's Word..
But why was I so hardcore against the "sin" of homosexuality and not the other sins mentioned and others at the time it never crossed my mind to reason that out. Why? It has nothing to do with reason for a person who condems homosexuality. It may have to do with the way they were raised, fear etc. But I certainly do believe for some who finds homosexuality disgusting, unfamiliar, or against nature" the few Scriptures they find on the subject they use to condemn and feel justified in doing so.
Part of it, I believe is a program set in someone's mind from a young age that homosexuality is "disgusting" "horrible" "degrading" I would say in some's minds it is probably one step below murder...(they may deny that , but that is the hate they have for homosexuality) hardwired in their brains that it is absolute evil.
I would tell myself, "hate the sin, love the sinner"

It is only when we really step away from ourselves and our beliefs looking at why we believe something with genuine open minds that we will see anything different. I think that honestly takes some tugging from God and a genuine willingness to do only God's will...even when it goes against everything you have been taught.

I was also always taught that the Bible was the WORD of God, nothing in it could be wrong or just someone's opinion...
It wasn't until my mid twenties that I noticed something was wrong with that belief...which led me on a whole new journey with God and Him giving me new understanding. Why before that I didn't question how the Bible came to be, how the books were chosen etc..is beyond me...

I condemned people for everything I had done...I believe somehow that made me feel farther from what I had done and what condemned my heart..

The only way anyone will look any differently at homosexuality is if they really take a step back, which most will never be willing to do.

How many times is homosexuality mentioned in the Bible? Once, twice three times...compared to other "sins"
I don't see divorces being protested, people standing out in front of the courthouses.

How many times is homosexuality mentioned in the Bible? Once, twice three times...compared to other "sins"
I don't see divorces being protested, people standing out in front of the courthouses.

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Not only that, some of the posters most loudly expressing homophobia and heterosexism are themselves divorced and remarried.

The few mentions of same gender sex in the Bible are vague and none express a context of love regarding sexuality; all appear to be cultural constructs of a superstitious ancient people conceived by a priesthood class primarily concerned with social conformity and ethnic purity.

The simple fact is LGBTs are subjected to the unfettered and emotional rancor of our religious extremists, serving them as a scapegoat. It is an act of organized bullying orchestrated by such groups as our religious right associations for the purpose of acquiring power by uniting others in condemnation of an oppressed group.

The few mentions of same gender sex in the Bible are vague and none express a context of love regarding sexuality; all appear to be cultural constructs of a superstitious ancient people conceived by a priesthood class primarily concerned with social conformity and ethnic purity.

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Liberal glasses

Rep Daddy said:

Liberal glasses

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Conservative ones have opaque lenses.

I thought conservatives preferred the microscope?

Dear Texas Lynn,

Not only that, some of the posters most loudly expressing homophobia and heterosexism are themselves divorced and remarried.

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Yes divorce and remarriage are sin, but it is divorce and remarriage, same-sex unions are not marriage in the first place. Some who are pointing out divorce and re-marriage are wrong aren&#8217;t admitting same-sex unions are too.
I suggest all people who enter relationships involving sex have already committed adultery in their hearts anyway. Unlike nominal Christians, born again Christians should not divorce and re-marry.

The few mentions of same gender sex in the Bible are vague and none express a context of love regarding sexuality; all appear to be cultural constructs of a superstitious ancient people conceived by a priesthood class primarily concerned with social conformity and ethnic purity.

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don&#8217;t see how they can be vague when the Bible is full of only many/woman marriages and devoid of any same-sex ones. The Bible is the revelation of God not a human social history book. Were the people superstitious because they believed in God, because they believed what Jesus Christ said. Sorry that merely sounds like disbelief.

The simple fact is LGBTs

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Hang on, there are at least a few mentions of same-sex sex in the Bible, there is no mention of LGBT&#8217;s.

It is an act of organized bullying orchestrated by such groups as our religious right associations for the purpose of acquiring power by uniting others in condemnation of an oppressed group.

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That&#8217;s just your opinion, many do not see somewhat the opposite.
Can we stick to the issue rather than descriptions nd labelling of people.