How many heads?

bbbbbbb · Sep 3, 2009

I wish to discuss several indisputable facts which raise several questions in my mind. The facts are as follow:

1. The Bible makes no mention whatsoever concerning the number of heads possessed by St. John the Baptist.
2. At present there are at least seven skulls of John the Baptist which have been fully authenticated, verified, and consecrated and now reside in various churches.
3. Many centuries have passed since the events of #2 and none of the skulls has ever been discredited or disowned.

Now, for the questions:

1. Did John have seven heads simultaneously or did they appear in sequence on his neck?
2. Given the very remarkable nature of having seven heads (at the least) why did the writers of the gospels fail to mention it?
3. If these things are not true in any aspect, how do we know they are not?

Thank you.

Kristos · Sep 3, 2009

I thought it was on the banks of the Susquhanna river near Harmony township in PA.

prodromos · Sep 4, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
2. At present there are at least seven skulls of John the Baptist which have been fully authenticated, verified, and consecrated and now reside in various churches.

Do each of these Churches have complete skulls, or does each have a part of a skull. I ask because it is not uncommon to encase part of a relic in a reliquary shaped like the whole. For example, a monastery in Northern Greece has one of the knuckle bones of St John the Russian in a reliquary in the shape of the complete hand. The reliquary has a compartment for the knuckle bone which is in the location of that knuckle bone, had the whole hand been present. For someone who didn't know, they could easily assume that the whole hand was contained in the reliquary and only that one bone was exposed.
I would expect that a reliquary for part of the skull of St John the Forerunner and Baptist would similarly be shaped like the complete skull. People would mistakenly assume that it actually contained a complete skull.

Do you have detailed information on each of the claimed relics of St John's head? Can you confirm one way or the other how much of a skull each Church has? Which Churches claim to have St John's head?

John

bbbbbbb · Sep 5, 2009

prodromos said:
Do each of these Churches have complete skulls, or does each have a part of a skull. I ask because it is not uncommon to encase part of a relic in a reliquary shaped like the whole. For example, a monastery in Northern Greece has one of the knuckle bones of St John the Russian in a reliquary in the shape of the complete hand. The reliquary has a compartment for the knuckle bone which is in the location of that knuckle bone, had the whole hand been present. For someone who didn't know, they could easily assume that the whole hand was contained in the reliquary and only that one bone was exposed.
I would expect that a reliquary for part of the skull of St John the Forerunner and Baptist would similarly be shaped like the complete skull. People would mistakenly assume that it actually contained a complete skull.

Do you have detailed information on each of the claimed relics of St John's head? Can you confirm one way or the other how much of a skull each Church has? Which Churches claim to have St John's head?

John

These are excellent questions.

There are a number of internet links on the topic, many of which are irreverent. However, some of the better links are as follow:

Wikipedia provides a rather complete discussion with some interesting links. The wikipedia article can be found here - Beheading of St. John the Baptist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here is an excellent link providing information. As you will see it is complete skull. The Relics of John the Baptist

Here is a third link. Although the general location (Constantinople) is the same, the other details are quite different. This may be a different skull. Unfortunately, no photographs are shown, although it is described as a complete skull. The Skull of Saint John the Baptist

Here is a link to a recent discovery which has not been verified - John The Baptist's Cave - And Head? - BelievedFound

Here is a link to a site about a piece of his skull in Jerusalem - CHURCH OF SAINT JOHN THE BAPTIST

Here is a link to a photograph of a complete skull located in the Cathedral of Amiens, France - Skull relic on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

student ad x · Sep 5, 2009

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student ad x · Sep 7, 2009

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Sphinx777 · Sep 7, 2009

John the Baptist (died c 30) was a mission preacher and a major religious figure who led a movement of Baptism at the Jordan River in expectation of a divine apocalypse that would restore occupied Israel. John followed the example of previous Hebrew prophets, living austerely, challenging sinful rulers, calling for repentance, and promising God's justice.

John is regarded as a prophet in Christianity, Islam, the Bahá'í Faith, and Mandaeism.

Some scholars maintain that he was influenced by the Essenes, who were semi-ascetic, expected an apocalypse, and had rituals similar to baptism, although there is no direct evidence to substantiate this. John's baptism was a purification rite for repentant sinners, performed in "living water" (in this case a running river) in accord with Jewish custom. John anticipated a messianic figure who would be greater than himself. Jesus was among those whom John baptized. It has been suggested that Jesus may have been a follower of John. Herod Antipas saw John as a threat and had him executed. The ministry of Jesus followed John's, and some of Jesus' early followers had previously been followers of John. John, like Jesus, preached at a time of political, social, and religious conflict.

Accounts of John in the New Testament are not incompatible with the account in Josephus, whose authority is respected. Here, Jesus is the one whose coming John foretold. Herod has John imprisoned for denouncing his marriage, and he is later executed. Christians commonly refer to John as the precursor or forerunner of Jesus, since in the Gospels, John announces Jesus' coming. He is also identified with the prophet Elijah, and is described as a relative of Jesus.

Because Scripture described John as endowed with prenatal grace, the feast day of his birth (June 24) became celebrated more solemnly than that marking his martyrdom (August 29). In art, John's head often appears on a platter because that is what Herod's stepdaughter, Salome, is said to have asked for. A theme of Christian art is the Beheading of St. John the Baptist. He is also depicted as an ascetic wearing camel hair and with a staff and scroll inscribed "Ecce Agnus Dei", or bearing a book or dish with a lamb on it. In Orthodox icons, he often has angel's wings, since Mark 1:2 describes him as ἄγγελος (angelos) (messenger).

bbbbbbb · Sep 8, 2009

Thanks, Sphinx, for the good information on John the Baptist. Do you have any sources for information on the seven skulls, that I have not cited?

prodromos · Sep 11, 2009

I cannot find seven skulls. The most I can find reference to are three skulls, and it is not certain whether two of them are complete.
There is the one in the Cathedral of Amiens, France, which may only be the front of the skull, there is one in the Treasury of the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul which may only be the top of the skull, and there is a complete skull (unlikely candidate considering what it has been through) in Rome. There are also a number of pieces of his skull in a small number of churches. From what I can see the one in Rome is bogus and the others are all parts of the one skull. If you can provide more detailed photographs or information regarding the relics in France and Turkey I would appreciate it.

John

bbbbbbb · Sep 11, 2009

prodromos said:
I cannot find seven skulls. The most I can find reference to are three skulls, and it is not certain whether two of them are complete.
There is the one in the Cathedral of Amiens, France, which may only be the front of the skull, there is one in the Treasury of the Topkapi Palace in Istanbul which may only be the top of the skull, and there is a complete skull (unlikely candidate considering what it has been through) in Rome. There are also a number of pieces of his skull in a small number of churches. From what I can see the one in Rome is bogus and the others are all parts of the one skull. If you can provide more detailed photographs or information regarding the relics in France and Turkey I would appreciate it.

John

Thank you for your input. I am not willing to say that any are bogus given the fact that they have been recognized as genuine for centuries and have not yet been dismissed by any church authorities as not being anything other than genuine. The only one that might be dismissed is the recent one discovered in this century and not authenticated by any church authority. I lack the credentials to confirm the veracity of this and await further, hopefully objective, investigation of it.

Did you read the links I provided earlier? There were photographs of two complete skulls in separate links, plus a lengthy discussion of at least six skulls or pieces of skulls in the Wikipedia article, with links to other references.

Thekla · Sep 11, 2009

What is the purpose of your thread ?

Thekla · Sep 11, 2009

Ummm .... did you do much of a check on the sites you linked

Do you think its possible that some of your sources may be in fact "many headed" ?
Some of these sites seem a little bit "too much" !

So, what is the affiliation and background of the "Michael Gabriel and Raphael Foundation" ?
What do you know about the "International Crusade for Holy Relics" folks ?

Check this out (intro page to "The Forbidden Knowledge" site you linked):

This domain is dedicated to the teaching of knowledge that was hidden from the human race all through history.

Your government is poised to inject you with a tracking chip manufactured by Applied Digital Solutions called, "Veri Chip". Don't believe me? Click below, I'll prove it to you.

Ancient Egyptian Light Bulb

The New World Order

Freemasonry's connection to the creation of Mankind and his purpose

Luciferic power structure and Government center Washington D.C.

Master numbers encoded within your DNA

Nikola Tesla

And much more. . .

Click on Adam & Eve to Visit . . .

Thekla · Sep 12, 2009

Just in case you missed it:

Master numbers encoded within your DNA

bbbbbbb · Sep 12, 2009

Thekla said:
What is the purpose of your thread ?

I think this question is probably answered in my OP. The purpose is to answer the questions I posted in reference to the facts that I stated.

If some wish to call those facts into question I am willing to entertain that discussion, as well. Of course, one must admit that it is highly improbable that any person has ever had more than one head, much less at least seven. However, the probability is not in question here.

If I am not mistaken (and I am open to correction) both the Roman and the Eastern Orthodox Churches have not denied the authenticity of the others' relics in this case.

If someone has determined to the satisfaction of either body that some or all of the skulls in question are invalid I am quite interested in seeing the documentation to that effect.

bbbbbbb · Sep 12, 2009

Thekla said:
Ummm .... did you do much of a check on the sites you linked

I did a cursory check on them, but did not read them in detail. I did, however, weed out the really irreverent and bizarre sites (which made these sites better, but only in comparison).

Thekla said:
Do you think its possible that some of your sources may be in fact "many headed" ?
Some of these sites seem a little bit "too much" !

I agree. What did you think about the Wikipedia article? That seemed relatively calm IMO.

Thekla said:
So, what is the affiliation and background of the "Michael Gabriel and Raphael Foundation" ?
What do you know about the "International Crusade for Holy Relics" folks ?

I really don't know and would be interested to find out. I might do a bit of sleuthing myself and see if I can find some answers for you.

Thekla said:
Check this out (intro page to "The Forbidden Knowledge" site you linked):
This domain is dedicated to the teaching of knowledge that was hidden from the human race all through history.

Your government is poised to inject you with a tracking chip manufactured by Applied Digital Solutions called, "Veri Chip". Don't believe me? Click below, I'll prove it to you.
Ancient Egyptian Light Bulb

The New World Order

Freemasonry's connection to the creation of Mankind and his purpose

Luciferic power structure and Government center Washington D.C.

Master numbers encoded within your DNA

Nikola Tesla

And much more. . .

Click on Adam & Eve to Visit . . .

Yep, they are over the line and I would ignore the other, unrelated stuff.

Thekla · Sep 12, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
I think this question is probably answered in my OP. The purpose is to answer the questions I posted in reference to the facts that I stated.

If some wish to call those facts into question I am willing to entertain that discussion, as well. Of course, one must admit that it is highly improbable that any person has ever had more than one head, much less at least seven. However, the probability is not in question here.

If I am not mistaken (and I am open to correction) both the Roman and the Eastern Orthodox Churches have not denied the authenticity of the others' relics in this case.

If someone has determined to the satisfaction of either body that some or all of the skulls in question are invalid I am quite interested in seeing the documentation to that effect.

The answer to your questions is in the master number encoded in your DNA.

Why do you have the expectation that the RC and EO are charged with being busybodies and constantly checking for logs in each others eyes

Did you notice that the pictures are not holograms ? That one skull does not seem complete, and the other site says a part ? Have you considered the meaning of symbolon and the relationship of this concept to whole and part ?

And:
do you really think the Masons guided the creation of Adam and Eve ?

bbbbbbb · Sep 12, 2009

Here is the information from the website "Saints Alive" for the International Crusade for Holy Relics - [SIZE=-1]

Chevalier Thomas J.Serafin V.V. presents for the faithful "SAINTS ALIVE", an educational website promoting the "cultus of the saints". "SAINTS ALIVE" is a not-for-profit lay apostolate founded to restore and maintain the dignity of the remains of the saints and promote proper veneration. "SAINTS ALIVE" is an independent member of the International Crusade for Holy Relics of which Mr. Serafin is the founder. This website is the official site for the USA Territorial Headquarters of the ICHR/USA.

It appears that it is a Roman Catholic organization. From the website there is nothing to suggest that they are not sincere in their mission.
[/SIZE]

Thekla · Sep 12, 2009

bbbbbbb said:
Here is the information from the website "Saints Alive" for the International Crusade for Holy Relics - [SIZE=-1]

Chevalier Thomas J.Serafin V.V. presents for the faithful "SAINTS ALIVE", an educational website promoting the "cultus of the saints". "SAINTS ALIVE" is a not-for-profit lay apostolate founded to restore and maintain the dignity of the remains of the saints and promote proper veneration. "SAINTS ALIVE" is an independent member of the International Crusade for Holy Relics of which Mr. Serafin is the founder. This website is the official site for the USA Territorial Headquarters of the ICHR/USA.

It appears that it is a Roman Catholic organization. From the website there is nothing to suggest that they are not sincere in their mission.
[/SIZE]

First, shouldn't they have a blessing from the RC to be "official" ?
Are you claiming the Forbidden Knowledge folks are correct about the master numbers encoded in DNA because they are sincere ?

What is your sincere motivation for this thread -- there is no "I am doing this because ..." in the OP.

Thekla · Sep 12, 2009

PS

do you agree with the Forbidden knowledge folks that the teaching of the Holy Trinity is an attempt at mind control ?

bbbbbbb · Sep 12, 2009

Thekla said:
The answer to your questions is in the master number encoded in your DNA.

How does my DNA relate to the number of heads (skulls) of John the Baptist?

Thekla said:
Why do you have the expectation that the RC and EO are charged with being busybodies and constantly checking for logs in each others eyes

Please note that the OP was not addressed to either Church nor was it intended for members of either Church to defend or deny the others' relics. I assume that after all these centuries these matters have been satisified and that reasonable explanations are available.

Thekla said:
Did you notice that the pictures are not holograms ? That one skull does not seem complete, and the other site says a part ? Have you considered the meaning of symbolon and the relationship of this concept to whole and part ?

My computer does not register holograms. I assume, of course, that these are photographs and not holograms. I also believe it when it is stated, for example concerning the skulls in Amiens and in Rome, that they are complete skulls and not partial skulls. Please expand on the meaning of symbolon and the realtionship of this concept to whole and part.

Thekla said:
And:
do you really think the Masons guided the creation of Adam and Eve ?

This is off-topic. However, as a former Mason I highly doubt that any Mason believes that nor is it taught by Freemasonry. There are other, much more bizarre ideas IMO, in Freemasonry. If you have an interest in that topic you may wish to start a thread in the Unorthodox Theology forum.

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