How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

zoidar · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
So what did the atonement accomplish?

I deleted my post because it was not clarifying, but I see you got to it first.

As a person receives the Spirit the power of the cross of Christ accomplishes redemption for the believer. From that perspective you can say the cross accomplished payment for everyone, yet only redemption to those who believe, the sheep. You can use the term sheep for a believer if you like. Before the person was a sheep, before receiving the Holy Spirit through faith, the same was accomplished for him as for everyone else: payment for sin, sin overwon.

zoidar · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
So what did the atonement accomplish?

It accomplished sin being paid, so we could through repentance and faith, receive cleansing of sin, redemption through the Holy Spirit.

Hammster · Feb 28, 2023

zoidar said:
I deleted my post because it was not clarifying, but I see you got to it first.

zoidar said:
As a person receives the Spirit the power of the cross of Christ accomplishes redemption for the believer. From that perspective you can say the cross accomplished payment for everyone, yet only redemption to those who believe, the sheep. You can use the term sheep for a believer if you like. Before the person was a sheep, before receiving the Holy Spirit through faith, the same was accomplished for him as for everyone else: payment for sin, sin overwon.

It’s still not clear how He died for the sheep but atoned for everyone. Maybe if it was that He died for everyone but atoned for the sheep, it would be more logical because you’d be drilling down to the heart of the matter. But that’s not what you are saying, and it wouldn’t fit the text.

zoidar · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
It’s still not clear how He died for the sheep but atoned for everyone. Maybe if it was that He died for everyone but atoned for the sheep, it would be more logical because you’d be drilling down to the heart of the matter. But that’s not what you are saying, and it wouldn’t fit the text.

Jesus died for whoever will become a sheep. His way of doing that was through paying for the sins of the whole world, everyone. Or else it wouldn't be possible for everyone to be saved, to become a sheep.

zoidar · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
It’s still not clear how He died for the sheep but atoned for everyone. Maybe if it was that He died for everyone but atoned for the sheep, it would be more logical because you’d be drilling down to the heart of the matter. But that’s not what you are saying, and it wouldn’t fit the text.

It's like the captain bought the boat that can carry all people over the ocean to the promised land. That's the payment.

Those who get on the boat are the sheep, whoever wants to cross to the other side. That's redemption.

The captain bought the boat for whoever wants to sail with him, the sheep. But not only that, he also bought the boat for giving everyone a chance to get on the boat, become a sheep.

What's not clear about it?

Hammster · Feb 28, 2023

zoidar said:
Jesus died for whoever will become a sheep. His way of doing that was through paying for the sins of the whole world, everyone. Or else it wouldn't be possible for everyone to be saved, to become a sheep.

Then it makes no sense for Him to say He is the shepherd who laid His life down for the sheep given to Him by His Father.

Hammster · Feb 28, 2023

zoidar said:
It's like the captain bought the boat that can carry all people over the ocean to the promised land. That's the payment.

Those who get on the boat are the sheep, whoever wants to cross to the other side. That's redemption.

The captain bought the boat for whoever wants to sail with him, the sheep. But not only that, he also bought the boat for giving everyone a chance to get on the boat, become a sheep.

What's not clear about it?

It doesn’t fit the text.

zoidar · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
It doesn’t fit the text.

Where doesn't it fit the text?

zoidar · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
Then it makes no sense for Him to say He is the shepherd who laid His life down for the sheep given to Him by His Father.

Why not?

Hammster · Feb 28, 2023

zoidar said:
Why not?

Because you have Him not laying His life down for the sheep that were given Him by the Father. You have Him laying His life down for, I don’t know what. It’s not the sheep from His Father though.

Hammster · Feb 28, 2023

zoidar said:
Where doesn't it fit the text?

I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:14-15

The sheep He lays His life down for are His own. They aren’t potential customers.

zoidar · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:14-15

The sheep He lays His life down for are His own. They aren’t potential customers.

Well... Christ told them how they could become sheep.

If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
— John 10:37-38

Hammster · Feb 28, 2023

zoidar said:
Well... Christ told them how they could become sheep.

If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”
— John 10:37-38

Nowhere does He say they can become sheep. You are reading that into the text.

Dah'veed · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
— John 10:14-15

The sheep He lays His life down for are His own. They aren’t potential customers.

He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

The "potential customers" (believers) got the memo, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God.

For He does give help to the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:16-17 So I stand here witnessing...that the Messiah would die, and that he, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to both His own People and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:22-23

zoidar · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
Nowhere does He say they can become sheep. You are reading that into the text.

What else would be the purpose for them to believe he is in the Father and the Father in him?

Dah'veed · Feb 28, 2023

zoidar said:
What else would be the purpose for them to believe he is in the Father and the Father in him?

For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. I pray also for those who will believe in Me through their message... John 17:19-21 Acts 10:42-44

Hammster · Feb 28, 2023

Dah'veed said:
He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

The "potential customers" (believers) got the memo.

For He does give help to the seed of Abraham. Heb 2:16-17 So I stand here witnessing...that the Messiah would die, and that he, as the first to rise from the dead, would proclaim light to both His own People and to the Gentiles. Acts 26:22-23

I’m not sure what this has to do with my post, and I don’t want to assume.

Hammster · Feb 28, 2023

zoidar said:
What else would be the purpose for them to believe he is in the Father and the Father in him?

Because it’s the truth. But it doesn’t say that they can become sheep, which was your claim.

Dah'veed · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
I’m not sure what this has to do with my post, and I don’t want to assume.

If I may ask, how did you become a follower of Christ?

Hammster said:
But it doesn’t say that they can become sheep, which was your claim.

Jesus said to them again, “Most assuredly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep....I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly." John 10:7-10

zoidar · Feb 28, 2023

Hammster said:
Because it’s the truth. But it doesn’t say that they can become sheep, which was your claim.

It doesn't use those words, no. But I do think that is what it is about.

I like this rendering by John Chrysostom on:

"John 10:26

But I told you, and you believe not, because you are not of My sheep.

For I on My part have fulfilled all that it behooved a Shepherd to do, and if you follow Me not, it is not because I am not a Shepherd, but because you are not My sheep."

How many Gentiles and Samaritans could have been saved if Jesus would have sent some disciples there?

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Carpe Chaos

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

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Carpe Chaos

Carpe Chaos

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Carpe Chaos

Carpe Chaos

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Carpe Chaos

Active Member

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

Active Member

Carpe Chaos

Carpe Chaos

Active Member

loves Jesus the Christ! ✝️

"John 10:26​

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"John 10:26