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How is Verification of Apostles done today?

Presbyterian Continuist

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There is such a thing as a false peace. It was the result of the false Old Testament prophets who prophesied that even though there was idol worship everything would be okay and Israel will continue having victory over its enemies, when the truth was totally different. Hence the Scripture "peace, peace when there is no peace."

I am sure that King Ahab felt built up and had a strong sense of peace through the prophecies of his 400 prophets in whom God had a lying spirit to enter.

The judgment of New Testament prophecy has to be on a firmer foundation than just a feeling of peace and being built up. Thousands of people are having the same set of feelings under the ministry of the health and wealth preachers and their false prophecies.

Further more, if New Testament prophecy was from the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then why are all these prophecies not written down and added to the New Testament? After all, if they are by direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit, they are the equivalent of Holy Scripture, aren't they?

Paul must have heard hundreds of prophecies in the churches he founded and visited. How come he never wrote them down and added them to his letters, and was never concerned that most of them were never remembered after the meetings? You would think that prophetic word directly inspired by the Holy Spirit would concern Paul and he would have made sure that they were written down and formed another New Testament book called "The Prophetic Words of the Church". But there is no such book.

The one prophecy that was directly inspired was the one through the prophets at Antioch: "Separate to me Barnabas and Paul for the work I have called them", and it was written down. There were other direct words to Paul that were also written down, such as, "Fear not. No one will attack you for I have many people in this city". Two prophecies by Agabus were recorded in Acts, while many others he spoke were never recorded, but if they were directly inspired by the Holy Spirit, they should have been, shouldn't they?

I have no doubt that the Holy Spirit is active in our churches, because He is active in those who love the Lord and who are faithful to him in the manifestation of the gifts. I also believe that He still speaks to believers to comfort, exhort and build them up. But what He speaks is not the direct "dictation" that the Old Testament prophets received and were not to be judged but accepted as the direct Word of God to the people.

But no New Covenant believer has such a direct line to God that he can get up and say, "This is what the Lord is saying". To get up and say that, is presumption. For someone to give a personal prophecy to another, saying, "The Lord has told me to say this to you", is not Holy Spirit, but spiritual manipulation of the other person, using God's "authority" to force the speaker's will on him. Therefore what is said is not God's will but the will of the person giving the prophecy. Whole church congregations can be manipulated in this way by a person forcing their will on the people by giving prophecies containing, "This is what the Lord is saying", and then telling anyone attempting to judge the prophecy that they are "disobeying the Lord and bringing judgment upon themselves".

I don't despise prophecy. I welcome it. But prophecy is not Scripture to be obeyed without question. I also welcome judgment of every prophecy given, and where a prophecy is not in harmony with Scripture, it should be pointed out and the people told to safely ignore it. If it is in harmony with Scripture then the prophecy should be affirmed as true and people should accept it as a blessing. For personal prophecies, they should confirm something that God has already said to the hearer, or else they should be rejected, or at least the hearer should say, "I will reserve my judgment of your prophecy until the Lord says it to me directly as well.
 
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A very good and comprehensive account of the ministry of an apostle. As John Calvin said in his commentary of 1 Corinthians 1: "Anyone can be called an apostle, but he has to be one."
 
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topher694

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All prophesy that comes from God also comes through a human filter, because God speaks to us in a way we can understand and rearticulate. Meaning even though it is from God it will sound like us and use images and vocabulary we understand and can express.
 
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There is also a growing scholarship view that Jesus was not a real historical person, that Paul did not exist, God is not a real person, the virgin birth didn't happen, and there was no resurrection. So, one must pick the meat from the bones with any scholarship view.
 
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ARBITER01

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There is such a thing as a false peace. It was the result of the false Old Testament prophets who prophesied that even though there was idol worship everything would be okay and Israel will continue having victory over its enemies, when the truth was totally different. Hence the Scripture "peace, peace when there is no peace."

I am sure that King Ahab felt built up and had a strong sense of peace through the prophecies of his 400 prophets in whom God had a lying spirit to enter.

The judgment of New Testament prophecy has to be on a firmer foundation than just a feeling of peace and being built up. Thousands of people are having the same set of feelings under the ministry of the health and wealth preachers and their false prophecies.

Further more, if New Testament prophecy was from the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit, then why are all these prophecies not written down and added to the New Testament? After all, if they are by direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit, they are the equivalent of Holy Scripture, aren't they?


Oscarr, if I remember correctly, you come from a Presbyterian background that had no operation of the gifts corporately. Basically, you were on your own trying to figure it out.

I come from an Assemblies of GOD background where we have had the gifts operate corporately every Sunday. It was routine to have The Holy Spirit give utterance with tongues, interpretation, and prophesying by 2 or 3 people every service. It was also routine to watch the Holy Spirit in action and learn from Him on the spot. I've had no better teacher.

I explained to you what happens when someone gives an utterance by The Holy Spirit in the corporate setting and how The Holy Spirit witnesses to it,...you doubted that,...which only means to me that you have yet to experience the gifts this way. I would say you probably only know them from a personal capacity rather than their intended use in the corporate assembly.

On your point about why the NT Gift of Prophecy is not added to scripture,....as I have said all along,...it is not a revelation gift. It is one of the inspirational gifts for the assembly. It is no better than tongues with interpretation. By scripture they are equal in operation.

There's a reason why Paul never described using the gift of prophesying in a personal capacity, only in the corporate setting, because that is what it is meant for.

The only gift that operates in the futuristic/predictive capacity is the word of wisdom. It works predominately, almost exclusively, in Prophets, hence why Agabus had to come down and give the revelation about what was going to happen to Paul rather than the 3 virgin daughters who prophesied in Acts.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Actualy, I was converted to Christ in the AOG church in Lower Hutt NZ, under the ministry of Trevor Chandler. Everything you say about the ministry of the Holy Spirit I believe without question. I spent the first 12 years of my Christian life in the Pentecostal movement. For three years I was discipled and trained in the ministry of the Holy Spirit by a strict, traditional Pentecostal pastor whose background was the Holiness movement. On two occasions, at a weekend conference, he prayed down the glory of God on the Saturday night meeting using tongues. When he prayed in a particular type of language in tongues, you just knew something was going to happen. When I started to use the gift of prophecy, he affirmed it, telling me that my gift was genuine and that I should value it and not "let it go".

I have been involved in the Presbyterian church for the last 23 years, as well as being involved in a Spirit-filled prophetic ministry, run by that pastor's son-in-law. He told me that the most powerful prophecies he had ever heard was from a group of Charismatic Presbyterian elders.

Even though I was an elder in the Presbyterian church, I did not abandon my Pentecostal theology or the training given by the strict pastor. He trained me from 1970-73, and his training stood the test of time, when the training of all my other mentors faded into history.

I am sharing this with you to show that my views on prophecy come from teaching and training well founded in Scripture. The pastor told me that in order to be prophetic, one must be a man of prayer and of the Word.

When CF had a prophetic ministry forum, I spent six months providing prophetic words to those who requested them. I think I gave a couple of hundred before some started trying to use me as their private horoscope, and I agreed with the Lord that I should withdraw my offer. Out of all those prophecies, only one person told me that she didn't understand it. I told her to put it on the back burner and ignored it unless something happened to make it relevant.

I have given prophetic words as a Presbyterian elder, but not in the AOG KJV manner as many did when I started out in the late 1960s while I was still with the AOG. I would say, "If Jesus was here, He might say this to you". That was quite acceptable, rather than the presumptuous, "This is what the Lord is saying".

I trust that this fills in some of the gaps in your knowledge of me.
 
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ARBITER01

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That's good Oscarr, I don't remember you ever saying that your background originated with AOG.

I don't doubt that you have the gift of prophesying, I just have questions over your use of it you describe. It seems you think this gift does more than what scripture teaches, as in it being revelatory and for personal use that way to people. I obviously disagree.

As I've already stated, it is no better than tongues with interpretation. They are on equal footing in scripture.
 
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Hawkins

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How is Verification of Apostles done today?

Apostle is a ranking anointed and granted by God. Even Paul doesn't deny the possibility that apostles can be part of a church built back then. In a nutshell, it's God's business to send an apostle. An apostle, from my understanding, is a witness or possibly an eyewitness of Jesus. He will participate in crafting the New Testament or will play a key role in preaching the gosple to the four corners of the world, such as building up God's Church on earth.

So it's up to God to define precisely who has been anointed to be an apostle. However from the Bible left for us, we can name some. We know at least Paul and the twelve (excluding Judas Iscariot). More likely James, the brother of Jesus, is another. There could be more.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I don't know if you read my previous posts about how I advise people who request a prophetic word from me. My view is that if I am asked for a word for someone, I ask the Lord for wisdom to say the right thing (that is promised in the Scripture, "If any man lacks wisdom God will give it to him"). I am clear with the person that what I am saying is what has come to mind, and if they confirm that it is prophetic for them, then it is prophetic, otherwise it is merely good, encouraging advice from me. This is because the impact of a prophetic word is not determined by the speaker, but by the hearer.

I have read Christian books, commentaries, heard sermons where sentences and paragraphs have been prophetic for me, even though the author wasn't aware that he was being prophetic. I have detected the prophetic in John MacArthur's messages that I have viewed on Youtube, in spite of him believing that the gift of prophecy is not for today's church. He has actually manifested prophecy in his sermons! There have been times when I have been given advice over some issue that has turned out to be prophetic because I have recognised it as being inspired by the Holy Spirit for me, yet the person was not trying to give me a prophecy.

However, after giving one prophetic word to a CF member, he was so impressed with the accuracy of it, that he asked me if I ate prophetic cornflakes for breakfast and drove a prophetic car to work! We have a visitor in our Presbyterian church who was gifted in the area of prophecy, and he gave a prophecy to our Session Clerk which was amazingly accurate, in spite of them not knowing each other before that Sunday morning. He gave prophetic words to others in the congregation, which were happily accepted as words of encouragement and edification. He didn't come across as all dramatic as a "prophet". He just spoke to each one quietly and normally, just like one person giving advice to another.

The power of a prophetic word is contained in what is actually being said, and not so much in the way it is being said. A prophecy in KJV English is no more a prophecy than one spoken in normal everyday English, in our case, colloquial New Zealand English. It is interesting that Paul did not describe himself as a eloquent speaker using perfect grammar, and yet what he did say demonstrated the power of the Holy Spirit.

It is also very interesting that John's gospel is written in the most simple form of Koini Greek (so simple that folk learning New Testament Greek are encouraged to work with John's Gospel first). Matthew and Luke's Greek was more involved and complicated. Maybe it was because John was a relatively uneducated fisherman before he became an Apostle, while Matthew the tax collector and Luke the physician were better educated.

In actual fact, "Jesus loves you" when spoken prophetically to a person at the right time can be one of the most powerful prophecies one can receive.
 
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topher694

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I'm going to throw a couple things out there. First, I think it's worth mentioning there are 2 forms of revelation, personal revelation and what I call canonical revelation. Prophecy can bring personal revelation, but it will no longer bring the type of revelation that will add to or change the canon of scripture. Personal revelation can and often is about scripture, but it is a personal revelation of the already written word.

Second, one does not have to be a prophet to operate in a word of wisdom. The word of wisdom is a gift to the entire Body of Christ just as much as any of the others. A prophet operating in the gift, however, will operate at a greater level of authority and wider influence than someone who is not in the office, therefore it is often more visible.
 
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ARBITER01

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Actually I'm going to back up here a moment Oscarr.

The Holy Spirit reminded me of an encouragement type prophecy that was given to me. The guy was visiting from another church out of state or something, and GOD used him to confirm things that The Holy Spirit had showed me all week prior. It was quite accurate.

After that I had to look up the greek meanings of the words 1Cor 14:3,...

1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

- Original: παράκλησις
- Transliteration: Paraklesis
- Phonetic: par-ak'-lay-sis
- Definition:
1. a calling near, summons, (esp. for help)
2. importation, supplication, entreaty
3. exhortation, admonition, encouragement
4. consolation, comfort, solace; that which affords comfort or refreshment
a. thus of the messianic salvation (so the Rabbis call the messiah the consoler, the comforter)
5. persuasive discourse, stirring address
a. instructive, admonitory, conciliatory, powerful hortatory discourse

I was used to the corporate prophesying by The Holy Spirit, but up to that point had refused any personal "words" from anyone. In fact, The Lord had to sort of trick me into receiving it, otherwise I wouldn't have.

From your posts it seems like you are trying to use the gift in this particular fashion, and if so, then it would seem proper given what The Holy Spirit showed me.
 
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Hawkins

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Now that we have a a bit of a go at prophets, what about apostles? If one of the prominent qualification for an apostle is regular signs wonders, if they are absent, is the apostle a real one, or just a word-based pretender?

It's not difficult at all. An apostle is a witness (more likely an eyewitness) of Jesus. A prophet knows how to get a message from God with no ambiguity. "God puts words to the mouth of a prophet" to a certain extent means the prophet can know without ambiguity about a message to be delivered. That's why they can be very much sure that the message is from God. Paul may set a typical example. Paul doesn't prophesy publicly (correct me if I am wrong). He however knows for sure that his messages are from Jesus.

A prophecy on the other hand, is more of a side product. It is because humans don't have the ability to tell a future. So if God told a prophet about a future and that future comes to pass, the prophet thus knows for sure that whatever message given is from God. Miracles to prophets may work in a similar fashion. Humans can't break our own physics laws. If God confirms His own message by performing a miracle in front of a prophet, the prophet thus knows that the message is from God.

Acts 14:3 (NIV2011)
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Absolutely. It is a bit of a relief to me that we are not in conflict about it. When I give a prophetic word to someone (only on request, and not repeated requests from the same person) I never give guidance, because that is the role of the person's indwelling Holy Spirit, and I am not prepared to usurp His role in exclusively guiding that person. But confirmation for guidance already given is okay. Also, I never predict fame or wealth, because that would give a false expectation that the Holy Spirit would never promise.
 
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What he got directly for Jesus is written in his New Testament letters. But what about all the prophecies that he gave as part of his ministry in the churches he founded and visited? If he advocated prophecy as the best gift in the church, it stands to reason that he would have prophesied himself. And yet, none of these prophecies were every recorded and made part of the New Testament. Does that mean that his inspired letters were different than the prophecies he gave in the churches?

Also, there were prophets in the early church. If their words were directly from Jesus (dictated). why were they not written down and added to the New Testament as, for example, "The Book of Agabus" containing all his prophecies? Does this mean that the prophecies of New Testament prophets were not the same as those of Old Testament prophets (whose prophecies were recorded as Scripture)?

But was it the role of the New Testament prophet to tell the future? I know that Agabus did, but that was only two recorded examples. Paul was prophetic in 1 and 2 Thessalonians when he predicted the Second Coming of Christ, but he was an Apostle, not a prophet. We actually don't have the recorded prophecies of any other New Testament prophets, so we don't really know what the prophesied.

Acts 14:3 (NIV2011)
So Paul and Barnabas spent considerable time there, speaking boldly for the Lord, who confirmed the message of his grace by enabling them to perform signs and wonders.
This reference doesn't seem to mention prophets or prophecy. It says that the preaching of Paul and Barnabas was confirmed with signs and wonders. But no mention of the prophecy of prophets confirmed in the same way. You might need to find a more accurate Scriptural reference to support your opinion.
 
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ARBITER01

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Has GOD changed Oscarr?

Could GOD raise up a prophet nowadays for that purpose?
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Has GOD changed Oscarr?

Could GOD raise up a prophet nowadays for that purpose?
He could, because the Scripture does say that God has placed prophets in the church. And Agabus' example shows that a New Testament prophet can predict the future, especially if the Holy Spirit tells him what God has planned for the future. But as you have implied, predictive prophecy isn't guess work, it has to come with full assurance from the Holy Spirit. We have prophets (so called) giving predictive prophecies "in faith", hoping or presuming they might come to pass; for example, the Trump prophecies which didn't come to pass because God didn't plan it that way (I don't are what the anti-Biden fellows are spouting about the election being rigged).
 
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ARBITER01

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Correct.

I view those folks speaking such things to be frauds. True prophets are concerned about the things of GOD, not the things of the world.
 
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HatGuy

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Agreed
 
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