How is this really interpreted?

[Lost Squirrel]

On our local LCMS church's webste, this appears:

"Sacramental Union and the Lord's Supper
Regarding Holy Communion, the LCMS believes in the doctrine of the Sacramental Union, Real Presence, that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present "in, with, and under" the elements of bread and wine. Or, as the Smalcald Articles express this mystery: "Of the Sacrament of the Altar, we hold that the bread and wine in the Supper are Christ's true body and blood." It is occasionally reported that the LCMS and other Lutherans teach the doctrine of consubstantiation. Consubstantiation is rejected by Lutherans and is explicitly rejected by the LCMS."

Now, I understand that the Lutheran faith does not subscribe to the notion that the bread and wine are not converted to the flesh and blood of Chrst, but isn't that exactly what is being described in the above paragraph? How does Real Presence differ? I'm getting really confused because the wording of this snippet from the Smalcald Articles truly seems to imply consubstantiation.

Also, can someone elaborate on the meaning of "in, with and under"?

Sorry to sound a bit dense. I'm really trying!

 

[alexnbethmom]

In, With, and Under | The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod


Q. What does the LCMS mean by "in, with and under the forms" of bread and wine?

A. Perhaps the most succinct formulation of the Lutheran position on the Real Presence is that found in Article VII of the Formula of Concord, Solid Declaration:


"In addition to the words of Christ and of St. Paul (the bread in the Lord's Supper 'is true body of Christ' or 'a participation in the body of Christ'), we at times also use the formulas 'under the bread, with the bread, in the bread.' We do this to reject papistic transubstantiation and to indicate the sacramental union [emphasis added] between the untransformed substance of the bread and the body of Christ.....so in the Holy Supper the two essences, the natural bread and the true, natural body of Christ, are present together here on earth in the ordered action of the sacrament, though the union of the body and blood of Christ with the bread and wine is not a personal union, like that of the two natures of Christ, but a sacramental union" (emphasis added; 35-38).


The language of "in, with, and under," which is found also in Luther's Small Catechism, was carefully chosen and was directed at specific errors encountered by the Lutheran confessors (for example, "in" was chosen to reject impanation and "with" to reject transubstantiation). Moreover, the expression "sacramental union" is used as a technical designation for the Lutheran understanding of the Real Presence. The word "under" in the phrase "in, with and under" used to express the Lutheran understanding of the sacramental union serves as a reminder that Christ's true body and blood in the Lord's Supper are "hidden under" the earthly forms of bread and wine (like a "mask" hiding someone's face--the face is "under" the mask). In fact, Luther often used the term "mask" to describe how God "hides" his work under humble, earthly, external means (sacramental and otherwise).


The Frequently Asked Question on Bread and Wine may be helpful.

 

[Studeclunker]

In a case like this, I really like my Bible in four translations. One can see four ways of looking at a Scriptural referrence and get a clearer picture of what the writer was saying. In this case, let's examine what the Apostle Paul has to say on the subject. My referrence to you is I Cor: 11-27 & 29:

KJV:

27)Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
29) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

RSV:

27) Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.
29) For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself.

Phillips:

27) So that, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord without proper reverence is sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
29) He that eats and drinks carelessly is eating and drinking a judgment on himself, for he is blind to the presence of the Lord's body.

King James insinuates rather strongly that one can end up in Hell for not properly taking Communion. They all rather clearly state that one is dealing with the Lord's body and blood in Communion. How else could one be guilty of it? Paul, however, does not go further to explain the mystery of how wine and bread can be the Lord's body and blood. Therefore, Lutherans accept the mystery and look at it as an unexplained occurance of the Lord's presence and grace in the communion elements. The Lord doesn't see fit to have his representatives explain the mechanics of this situation and we accept his wisdom in this. Thus we say, that the blood and body of Christ are in, and under, the wine and bread and leave it at that.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

consubstantiation is a process by which some (mainly Catholics) believe the bread and wine turn into Christ's body and blood. Explaining the unexplainable, if you will.

Lutherans still believe in Real Presence, but we don't try to explain how the bread is the body and yet still the bread, and how the wine is the blood yet still the wine.

 

[bach90]

Romans believe in transubstantiation, I don't know of a Church body that explicitly teaches consubstantiation (although that's what the Romans say our view is).

Lutherans do not try to explain the real presence in neo-Aristotelian terminology like Romans. Jesus said "This is my body" so we believe that the bread and wine are Jesus's body and blood. It's a mystery we can't understand it and we shouldn't try to. I once heard a Pastor remark that Calvin explained away the body and blood, but the Romans explained away the bread and wine!

 

[DaRev]

consubstantiation is a process by which some (mainly Catholics) believe the bread and wine turn into Christ's body and blood.

That is actually transubstantiation. Consubstantiation is basically a mixture of body & bread, blood & wine in some proportion.