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How I lost my Faith; through study of Early Christian History...

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OnceUponAChristian

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Hail to All,

I was once a liberal Christian for a fair bit of time in my life yet knew very little about the inception of the Bible, the religion and Christian history proper. I began studying the subject in complete innocence some ten years ago, something that eventually led me away from Christianity to Agnosticism/Apatheism, simply by researching history...it is true; in some ways ignorance IS bliss...

To begin with I started reading about the Gospel writers, who, it is taught were 'eyewitnesses' to Jesus of Nazareth's career on earth. After reading genuine scholarship, this notion was quickly dispelled. Anonymous writers, writing decades after the 'fact' with Mark being the first around 70 CE and all the others copying him in the 80's, 90's CE and later. Studying Paul's epistles and other writings I searched in vain for the Gospel events described by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. He doesn't even talk about a man who lived on earth recently; no Mary, Joseph, Herod, Pilate, Temptation, etc...

Then I looked at the external evidence, that is extra-biblical evidence for the Gospel story and Jesus Christ. I was shocked at how paucidly the Jesus of Nazareth figure was attested outside of the NT and the that the various events weren't attested at all, such as the slaughter of innocents by Herod, seemingly derived straight from the OT book of Exodus, the trial of Jesus and all of these other 'events'. All the pagan and Jewish witness that does mention Jesus, inevitably comes decades after his 'time', all of which suffering from tampering by Christian interpolation.

After several years of further study I lost my faith. The loss became even more cemented by reading modern science, in particular modern cosmology, about which Christianity had/has nothing to say.

I can honestly say that I am happier now with the knowledge I have acquired than I was when I was living in 'faith' to things that were simply beaten into me as a child and I accepted on no good grounds.

This is a message of hope for those who are going through this process brought about by enquiry. Life DOES continue after you lose faith and it can be even better than it was with it...

The truth will set you free...in more ways than one...
 
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Rick Otto

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I wonder if takin' a breath is in order here.
I sympathize completely with your thoughts & feelings, but I have at least a little different perspective maybe...
For instance, ya 'freak' on no other historical (than biblical) evidence of Herod's slaughter, but isn't that common to similar events in other cultures? It wasn't an event that crossed cultural borders, so to expect extra-cultural corroboration may be expecting to much of history. Am I missing something?

Paul mentions the incarntion, claim of Messiahship w/attendant miracles, and the resurrection, gospel events right "off the bat" in Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2: (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3: Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4: And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

So you can see how I might consider your search a bit cursory. Sorry if I sound disrespectful.
 
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jckstraw72

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modern scholars are out to make a name for htemselves. they have to come up with new and exciting theories, and they love to attack orthodox Christianity. The Church has consistenly witnessed that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John authored the Scriptures. why would you trust some modern (most likely atheistic or agnostic) scholar over Christ's Body?
 
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Epiphoskei

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The absence of certain evidences used to bother me too, but over the past few years I've begun to study history as a vocation. Yes, there's a horrible lack of evidence compared to what one would expect in the modern world, but not the ancient world. The slaughter of the innocents? There couldn't have been more than about a dozen children that age in bethlehem at the time. A horrible crime, but herod had far, far worse to his name, and this one wouldn't have been recorded. Remember, if it wasn't for josephus and the dead sea scrolls, it would be difficult to prove that Judea existed at all during this time period.

As for the dates of the gospels, they can date from any point from the time of the events described up to the time the first manuscripts can be found. Any closer selection is really all guessing. since the gospels predict the fall of jerusalem, scholars say they obviously have to date to after 70 AD, but that presupposes there's no such thing as prophecy, which is an assumption I am not willing to concede, as it begs the question.
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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I've also inquired into the details of early church history and Biblical criticism. I have always enjoyed reading different points of view and honestly strive to see views where someone's perspective is different from mine. I have examined the major faiths and philosophical options with an open mind. My inquiry has spanned more than 2 decades, and its still ongoing.

I was a Christian when I began, and I'm still a Christian. One can be an intellectual and a Christian at the same time. And I can sincerely say that Christians have nothing to fear from the truth.

And if I had to decide what the next best option to Christianity, it certainly wouldn't be naturalism. For one, naturalism appears to be open and objective. The reality is that many naturalists aren't open and objective. One can clearly see agendas, emotions, passions and biases in their arguments. And this criticism is not just from Christians, but from many non-Christians - especially postmodernists.

And two, I wouldn't accept naturalism because in light of time and space, the individual simply slides into a meaningless and valueless existence. Astronomy shows us that the universe is extremely vast (if not infinite), containing billions of stars. What is humanity on earth in comparison to all the universe? And what is an individuals whose productive life span (if lucky) just might be 22,000 days, in relation to an insignificant planet in a vast universe?

And what's the benefit from each individual's efforts throughout history? Generations come and go, and these people - whatever they have done, good or bad - are largely forgotten. According to naturalism, the person who dies with the most toys doesn't win, they just simply cease to be. There is no meaning or purpose. Now if I was a naturalist, then perhaps I can delude myself into considering that I am significant in some way such as in relation to my family, to my community, etc. But than I know that the reality of insignificance resulting from the vastness of space and time would always be in the back of my mind.


LDG
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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The absence of certain evidences used to bother me too, but over the past few years I've begun to study history as a vocation. Yes, there's a horrible lack of evidence compared to what one would expect in the modern world, but not the ancient world.

That is one key problem, the differences between the ancient and modern worlds. 2,000 years tends to erase a lot of the evidence. Also one may discount actual evidence. Once someone showed pictures of men landing on the moon to a fellow who did not believe the landings ever happened. The fellow was impressed and replied, "They sure can fake these landings very well in the studios, can't they?"



The Gospel of John was written in the 90s. Also its possible that the Gospel of Luke was written after the fall of Jerusalem in the 80s. All four gospels though were accepted very early into the canon.

LDG
 
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Epiphoskei

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Oh, I accept the traditional dates as as good as any others, but those are based on tradition, and there is no solid reason for selecting earlier or later dates. 125 is the absolute limit, though, as John's earliest mauscripts date to 125, and John is clearly youngest of all 4.
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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You have just presented an entirely emotional argument. Because something is comforting DOES NOT mean it is true. The cosmological evidence of the universe suggests that there is no purpose (save perhaps to create black holes, which isn't a very uplifting purpose for us mammals). I can invent any number of things and ascribe purpose to the universe through them but they ultimately must be recognised as wish thinking. Religions of all sort persist because of their comfort/consolation value, not because of the veracity of their claims to the structure of the universe. Maybe existence is brief and meaningless and that is where the evidence points, regardless of how consoling religious propositions are. We are stuck on this mudball of a tiny planet in a comos so vast we cannot even imagine its dimensions, save in obscure mathematical terms. Where is the evidence for the specifics of Christian doctrine in light of this?
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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An yet none of the Gospel story details is contained in the epistles of Paul, although they date much earlier. He makes no mention of Bethlehem, Nazareth, Mary, Joseph or any of the other events. The way he describes Christ is 'Christ Jesus', not Jesus of Nazareth, an actual historical person who lived in recent times. Surely if Paul knew of all the details of the Gospel story of a human Jesus he would have provided them. If you look at the choice of verbs in the Greek it also hints at a Cosmic Son of God not an historical figure who was tried and crucified by Pilate.
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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great read...

 
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davidoffinland

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From Finland.

Western Christianity has been unsettled more ways than one when after the Age of Enlightment...the Critical theories, etc...has made Christianity in the West...U.S., U.K. and Western Europe as it is now.

The truth that has set me free has been the study of 1st Ct Jewish/Christian history. I would say a large percentage of christians and non-christians do not know too much of this history especially in Jewish/Christian thought of the times. When they begin to study these things in Scripture, they view things through their Gentile perpectives heavily laided with Grecian philosophical or analytical thought.

I remember one time when I was in Israel on a study mission, one member of the team wanted to see the actually historical steps of Moses when he crossed the Sea. Many members in some particular church have been side-lined in their faith when they come to view things like this...more so in liberal-inclined denominations.

It is time to step back and view things anew!

In Him, david.
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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I love that Finnish has 15 cases...love agglutination...
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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You have just presented an entirely emotional argument.

No, I've simply presented my own conclusions based on study and inquiry. That is exactly what you did in your first post as well. You also did not present any evidence or proof of your conclusions, you just raised a few questions about Christian belief. I too raised questions concerning naturalism. If my post is supposedly "emotional" then your OP is emotional as well.

Because something is comforting DOES NOT mean it is true.

I agree. You said you are now comfortable with Modern Science and a naturalist viewpoint. But that certainly doesn't mean the naturalist viewpoint is true.


I agree, and that was my point in my previous post. Its also one of the reasons why I reject the naturalist worldview. It doesn't offer me anything. And if it doesn't offer my anything, then I might as well become a Nihilist. And if I'm a Nihilist, then why should I even assume there is any order to the universe if there is no meaning?

Religions of all sort persist because of their comfort/consolation value, not because of the veracity of their claims to the structure of the universe.

You also used "hope" in the OP to describe your position - is that not also an expression of comfort/consolation? If a naturalist extends "hope" to potential converts, then one can easily conclude that naturalism is not just a philosophy, but a type of religion.

You assume all Christians are existentialists. Most are not. My own inquiry and investigation reveals that Christianity is a historical faith based on historical fact. I have also discovered that Christianity is the most reasonable worldview out of all the worldviews I have encountered. One may disagree with my conclusions, but it is highly presumptuous to reject the evidence for my conclusions before one has seen it.


And if this is true, then what is the point for taking any worldview? Like I said, there is no significance. There is nothing within naturalism that addresses values. One could take any value and rationalize it. Under naturalism, one could be a serial killer as much as another could be an outstanding community member.

Naturalism, if taken straight up and seriously, easily slides into Nihilism. In Nihilism everything becomes meaningless. Douglas Adams in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series had it right: the Question (what is six times nine?) and the Answer (42) are mutually exclusive. Adam's point is there is no Question, and there is no Answer.

Naturalism doesn't provide any real Question and doesn't answer any real Answer.


Where is the evidence for the specifics of Christian doctrine in light of this?

What are you trying to ask? Science and Christianity aren't mutually exclusive. Christians like myself have no problems with the vastness of the universe with its mind boggling numbers.

Unlike Naturalism, Christianity doesn't offer obscure mathematical numbers and leave it at that. The vastness of the universe is perfectly acceptable to me because I believe in the One who created the universe. My life is not meaningless, even though I know one day I will die. My life is not lived without hope. This planet is not just one insignificant among billions of others, it has special significance.


LDG
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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great read...

Robert Price's first sentence sums it up well:

"When, long ago, I first learned that some theorized that Jesus had never existed as an historical figure, I dismissed the notion as mere crankism, as most still do."

Robert Price was right the first time.

Most non-Christian historians and scholars consider the "Jesus as Myth" to have been refuted because there are too many problems and issues otherwise.

For additional details, check out the mainstream scholarly reception section of the Jesus as Myth wikipedia article.


LDG
 
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Strong in Him

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I wrote a reply to this a couple of hours ago but the computer ate it, so hopefully I can remember what I wanted to say.


This is sad. I don't know what history you studied or how deep your research was, but there are a few things in your thread that you should be aware of, or at least consider, if you want to be able to form an unbiased opinion.


Who taught you that the Gospel writers were all eyewitnesses? It's likely that John's Gospel was written by the apostle himself, or at least that he was very closely involved in writing it. Mark's Gospel was probably written by John Mark, a cousin of Barnabas and one of Paul's travelling companions. It is also likely that the apostle Peter was one of the sources behind this Gospel. Papias, who lived about 140 AD, has written that Mark was an interpreter for Peter, and wrote down everything that he remembered of Christ. It should be noted also, that Jesus' stories and teachings were repeated many times - the early church told stories about him everywhere they travelled - and a Jew was used to memorising large passages of Scripture/law, so these memories would have been very accurate. Not like someone whose suddenly been asked to write about an event he hadn't thought of for years.

It is also thought possible, by theologians etc, that Jesus' mother herself was a source behind the writing of Luke's Gospel, which is why he tells her story of Jesus' conception and birth and includes her visit to Elizabeth and her song of praise - the magnificat.

Mark is one of the sources for Matthew and Luke, but as their accounts are much longer than his and each include material that he doesn't, it cannot have been the only source. So they did not "copy" him.

Studying Paul's epistles and other writings I searched in vain for the Gospel events described by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. He doesn't even talk about a man who lived on earth recently; no Mary, Joseph, Herod, Pilate, Temptation, etc...

Paul died about 64 AD, so his epistles were written before the Gospels were. His account of the last supper in 1 Corinthians 11 is therefore the earliest account of this that we have. Paul also writes about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. He said that the Lord rose on the third day, appeared to Peter and the apostles, and then to more than 500 people - most of whom are still alive. In other words; if you don't believe these things I am writing, go and ask someone for yourself. There are also the words that someone has already quoted, about Jesus being born of Mary, and an occasion where he quotes Jesus, even though this phrase doesn't appaer in the Gospels; "as the Lord Jesus said, 'it is more blessed to give than to receive'." (Acts 20:35.)
Also, Paul was writing letters to the churches he had already founded - ie who had heard the Gospel and stories about Jesus. He wrote to encourage them in the faith, apply the Gospel in their daily lives, and stand up for what they believed against the heresies that were beginning to invade the church, and the pagan cultures in which some of them lived. He wrote to sort out problems, address pastoral issues and generally encourage them as he would do if he were physically able to be with them.


What external corroboration do you want? I'm sure there is plenty for the people and places mentioned in the Gospels; Herod, Caesar Augustus, Pontius Pilate, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, the temple, Herod's palace and so on. What about some of the people and events Jesus spoke about - Moses, David, the 10 commandments, the Jewish law, Abraham, Jonah and so on? Or have you latched on to this phrase that Josephus wrote, which some people think has been added to by Christians, and concluded that therefore the whole thing must be a fake? It is also thought that, even if some people did add the words "he was the Messiah", or whatever the phrase was, the basic written record is correct - that Josephus referred to a man called Jesus of Nazareth. There are also apparently references to Jesus and some of the early church in Pliny and Tacitus' writings. I haven't researched it thoroughly so I can't say for sure.

It seems clear to me that all the major religions, and probably many minor ones, accept that Jesus exisited -Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc. What they disagree on is who he was - i.e the Son of God, the Messiah - and what he did - died to save us from sin and was raised from the dead by God.

And there is also the fact that the Christian church exists, and has done for nearly 2000 years. How about that for history? The disciples were changed men after the resurrection. They went out and procalimed the Gospel, and many were killed for it. It is reported that the Jewish authorities paid the solgdiers guarding the tomb to say that the disciples came and stole his body - yet no one ever produced it and, as I say, the disciples went to their deaths proclaiming that Jesus had risen and was alive. Millions of people since have lived and died with this knowledge. Faith in the risen Christ has led people to found schools, hospitals, and organisations such as the samaritans and the Salvation army. Others have fought to get the slave trade abolished, establish racial equality, and get help for homeless people, drug addicts or alcoholics. People have gone to third world countries to help the poor, tarnslate Scriptures, build hospitals, and so on, and some have died their for their faith.

After several years of further study I lost my faith. The loss became even more cemented by reading modern science, in particular modern cosmology, about which Christianity had/has nothing to say.

There are many scientists who are Christians. Some have become Christians through their scientific studies, others have studied/do study science while seeing no conflict with their Christian faith. With regards to creation, for example, Genesis explains WHY it happened - because God wanted it to - not HOW. Science can explain HOW, but not WHY.


Well that's up to you. It doesn't sound as though you've studied it that closely, but maybe your liberal faith told you that the Bible wasn't true and you just wanted to find something that would confirm it to you.

...The truth will set you free...in more ways than one...

Interesting - you've decided against faith in Jesus, yet you still quote him. Yes, the truth does set us free. Jesus is truth and he sets us free from sin and fear of death. Many, many people also testify that he has set them free from addiction, bad habits, bad temper, low self esteem etc etc. We are free to accept God's love and forgiveness, and to become the people he wants us to be.
 
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Epiphoskei

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the conflicting birth dates are another smoking gun that dispels the notion of 'eyewitness' accounts to anything.

...The gospels don't contain any "birth dates." Care to unpack what you mean by this statement?
 
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Rick Otto

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An yet none of the Gospel story details is contained in the epistles of Paul, although they date much earlier. He makes no mention of Bethlehem, Nazareth, Mary, Joseph or any of the other events.
Why should he re-iterate what was somebody else's story to tell? I'm pretty sure he knew about the gospels of Matt, Mrk, Luke & John, wouldn't you think so too?

The way he describes Christ is 'Christ Jesus', not Jesus of Nazareth, an actual historical person who lived in recent times.
Um, what's the dif? How recent? I thought you doubted His historical existence, or are you talkin' about another Jesus? Sorry I'm so easily confused.
Surely if Paul knew of all the details of the Gospel story of a human Jesus he would have provided them.
Well, I'm sure he probably did in sermons and preachin' but all his letters are to people already familiar with it, yes?
If you look at the choice of verbs in the Greek it also hints at a Cosmic Son of God not an historical figure who was tried and crucified by Pilate
Isn't that two different aspects of the same Guy?
 
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Kristos

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Sorry to hear that.

Of course, that's why it's called faith.

Either it's true or it's the most diabolical farce in the history of mankind.
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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I have seen the socalled refutations; they are scorn, contempt and derision and have nothing to do with scholarship and actually dealing with the points made in favour of the Jesus Myth...

Wikipedia...sigh...
 
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