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How I lost my Faith; through study of Early Christian History...

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OnceUponAChristian

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Hail to All,

I was once a liberal Christian for a fair bit of time in my life yet knew very little about the inception of the Bible, the religion and Christian history proper. I began studying the subject in complete innocence some ten years ago, something that eventually led me away from Christianity to Agnosticism/Apatheism, simply by researching history...it is true; in some ways ignorance IS bliss...

To begin with I started reading about the Gospel writers, who, it is taught were 'eyewitnesses' to Jesus of Nazareth's career on earth. After reading genuine scholarship, this notion was quickly dispelled. Anonymous writers, writing decades after the 'fact' with Mark being the first around 70 CE and all the others copying him in the 80's, 90's CE and later. Studying Paul's epistles and other writings I searched in vain for the Gospel events described by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. He doesn't even talk about a man who lived on earth recently; no Mary, Joseph, Herod, Pilate, Temptation, etc...

Then I looked at the external evidence, that is extra-biblical evidence for the Gospel story and Jesus Christ. I was shocked at how paucidly the Jesus of Nazareth figure was attested outside of the NT and the that the various events weren't attested at all, such as the slaughter of innocents by Herod, seemingly derived straight from the OT book of Exodus, the trial of Jesus and all of these other 'events'. All the pagan and Jewish witness that does mention Jesus, inevitably comes decades after his 'time', all of which suffering from tampering by Christian interpolation.

After several years of further study I lost my faith. The loss became even more cemented by reading modern science, in particular modern cosmology, about which Christianity had/has nothing to say.

I can honestly say that I am happier now with the knowledge I have acquired than I was when I was living in 'faith' to things that were simply beaten into me as a child and I accepted on no good grounds.

This is a message of hope for those who are going through this process brought about by enquiry. Life DOES continue after you lose faith and it can be even better than it was with it...

The truth will set you free...in more ways than one...:thumbsup:
 
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Rick Otto

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I wonder if takin' a breath is in order here.
I sympathize completely with your thoughts & feelings, but I have at least a little different perspective maybe...
For instance, ya 'freak' on no other historical (than biblical) evidence of Herod's slaughter, but isn't that common to similar events in other cultures? It wasn't an event that crossed cultural borders, so to expect extra-cultural corroboration may be expecting to much of history. Am I missing something?:)

Paul mentions the incarntion, claim of Messiahship w/attendant miracles, and the resurrection, gospel events right "off the bat" in Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2: (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3: Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4: And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

So you can see how I might consider your search a bit cursory. Sorry if I sound disrespectful.
 
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jckstraw72

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modern scholars are out to make a name for htemselves. they have to come up with new and exciting theories, and they love to attack orthodox Christianity. The Church has consistenly witnessed that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John authored the Scriptures. why would you trust some modern (most likely atheistic or agnostic) scholar over Christ's Body?
 
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Epiphoskei

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The absence of certain evidences used to bother me too, but over the past few years I've begun to study history as a vocation. Yes, there's a horrible lack of evidence compared to what one would expect in the modern world, but not the ancient world. The slaughter of the innocents? There couldn't have been more than about a dozen children that age in bethlehem at the time. A horrible crime, but herod had far, far worse to his name, and this one wouldn't have been recorded. Remember, if it wasn't for josephus and the dead sea scrolls, it would be difficult to prove that Judea existed at all during this time period.

As for the dates of the gospels, they can date from any point from the time of the events described up to the time the first manuscripts can be found. Any closer selection is really all guessing. since the gospels predict the fall of jerusalem, scholars say they obviously have to date to after 70 AD, but that presupposes there's no such thing as prophecy, which is an assumption I am not willing to concede, as it begs the question.
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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After several years of further study I lost my faith. The loss became even more cemented by reading modern science, in particular modern cosmology, about which Christianity had/has nothing to say.

I can honestly say that I am happier now with the knowledge I have acquired than I was when I was living in 'faith' to things that were simply beaten into me as a child and I accepted on no good grounds.

This is a message of hope for those who are going through this process brought about by enquiry. Life DOES continue after you lose faith and it can be even better than it was with it...

The truth will set you free...in more ways than one...:thumbsup:

I've also inquired into the details of early church history and Biblical criticism. I have always enjoyed reading different points of view and honestly strive to see views where someone's perspective is different from mine. I have examined the major faiths and philosophical options with an open mind. My inquiry has spanned more than 2 decades, and its still ongoing.

I was a Christian when I began, and I'm still a Christian. One can be an intellectual and a Christian at the same time. And I can sincerely say that Christians have nothing to fear from the truth.

And if I had to decide what the next best option to Christianity, it certainly wouldn't be naturalism. For one, naturalism appears to be open and objective. The reality is that many naturalists aren't open and objective. One can clearly see agendas, emotions, passions and biases in their arguments. And this criticism is not just from Christians, but from many non-Christians - especially postmodernists.

And two, I wouldn't accept naturalism because in light of time and space, the individual simply slides into a meaningless and valueless existence. Astronomy shows us that the universe is extremely vast (if not infinite), containing billions of stars. What is humanity on earth in comparison to all the universe? And what is an individuals whose productive life span (if lucky) just might be 22,000 days, in relation to an insignificant planet in a vast universe?

And what's the benefit from each individual's efforts throughout history? Generations come and go, and these people - whatever they have done, good or bad - are largely forgotten. According to naturalism, the person who dies with the most toys doesn't win, they just simply cease to be. There is no meaning or purpose. Now if I was a naturalist, then perhaps I can delude myself into considering that I am significant in some way such as in relation to my family, to my community, etc. But than I know that the reality of insignificance resulting from the vastness of space and time would always be in the back of my mind.


LDG
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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The absence of certain evidences used to bother me too, but over the past few years I've begun to study history as a vocation. Yes, there's a horrible lack of evidence compared to what one would expect in the modern world, but not the ancient world.

That is one key problem, the differences between the ancient and modern worlds. 2,000 years tends to erase a lot of the evidence. Also one may discount actual evidence. Once someone showed pictures of men landing on the moon to a fellow who did not believe the landings ever happened. The fellow was impressed and replied, "They sure can fake these landings very well in the studios, can't they?"


As for the dates of the gospels, they can date from any point from the time of the events described up to the time the first manuscripts can be found. Any closer selection is really all guessing. since the gospels predict the fall of jerusalem, scholars say they obviously have to date to after 70 AD, but that presupposes there's no such thing as prophecy, which is an assumption I am not willing to concede, as it begs the question.

The Gospel of John was written in the 90s. Also its possible that the Gospel of Luke was written after the fall of Jerusalem in the 80s. All four gospels though were accepted very early into the canon.

LDG
 
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Epiphoskei

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Oh, I accept the traditional dates as as good as any others, but those are based on tradition, and there is no solid reason for selecting earlier or later dates. 125 is the absolute limit, though, as John's earliest mauscripts date to 125, and John is clearly youngest of all 4.
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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I've also inquired into the details of early church history and Biblical criticism. I have always enjoyed reading different points of view and honestly strive to see views where someone's perspective is different from mine. I have examined the major faiths and philosophical options with an open mind. My inquiry has spanned more than 2 decades, and its still ongoing.

I was a Christian when I began, and I'm still a Christian. One can be an intellectual and a Christian at the same time. And I can sincerely say that Christians have nothing to fear from the truth.

And if I had to decide what the next best option to Christianity, it certainly wouldn't be naturalism. For one, naturalism appears to be open and objective. The reality is that many naturalists aren't open and objective. One can clearly see agendas, emotions, passions and biases in their arguments. And this criticism is not just from Christians, but from many non-Christians - especially postmodernists.

And two, I wouldn't accept naturalism because in light of time and space, the individual simply slides into a meaningless and valueless existence. Astronomy shows us that the universe is extremely vast (if not infinite), containing billions of stars. What is humanity on earth in comparison to all the universe? And what is an individuals whose productive life span (if lucky) just might be 22,000 days, in relation to an insignificant planet in a vast universe?

And what's the benefit from each individual's efforts throughout history? Generations come and go, and these people - whatever they have done, good or bad - are largely forgotten. According to naturalism, the person who dies with the most toys doesn't win, they just simply cease to be. There is no meaning or purpose. Now if I was a naturalist, then perhaps I can delude myself into considering that I am significant in some way such as in relation to my family, to my community, etc. But than I know that the reality of insignificance resulting from the vastness of space and time would always be in the back of my mind.


LDG
You have just presented an entirely emotional argument. Because something is comforting DOES NOT mean it is true. The cosmological evidence of the universe suggests that there is no purpose (save perhaps to create black holes, which isn't a very uplifting purpose for us mammals). I can invent any number of things and ascribe purpose to the universe through them but they ultimately must be recognised as wish thinking. Religions of all sort persist because of their comfort/consolation value, not because of the veracity of their claims to the structure of the universe. Maybe existence is brief and meaningless and that is where the evidence points, regardless of how consoling religious propositions are. We are stuck on this mudball of a tiny planet in a comos so vast we cannot even imagine its dimensions, save in obscure mathematical terms. Where is the evidence for the specifics of Christian doctrine in light of this?
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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I wonder if takin' a breath is in order here.
I sympathize completely with your thoughts & feelings, but I have at least a little different perspective maybe...
For instance, ya 'freak' on no other historical (than biblical) evidence of Herod's slaughter, but isn't that common to similar events in other cultures? It wasn't an event that crossed cultural borders, so to expect extra-cultural corroboration may be expecting to much of history. Am I missing something?:)

Paul mentions the incarntion, claim of Messiahship w/attendant miracles, and the resurrection, gospel events right "off the bat" in Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2: (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3: Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4: And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

So you can see how I might consider your search a bit cursory. Sorry if I sound disrespectful.
An yet none of the Gospel story details is contained in the epistles of Paul, although they date much earlier. He makes no mention of Bethlehem, Nazareth, Mary, Joseph or any of the other events. The way he describes Christ is 'Christ Jesus', not Jesus of Nazareth, an actual historical person who lived in recent times. Surely if Paul knew of all the details of the Gospel story of a human Jesus he would have provided them. If you look at the choice of verbs in the Greek it also hints at a Cosmic Son of God not an historical figure who was tried and crucified by Pilate.
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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great read...

The Quest of the Mythical Jesus

Robert M. Price

When, long ago, I first learned that some theorized that Jesus had never existed as an historical figure, I dismissed the notion as mere crankism, as most still do. Indeed, Rudolf Bultmann, supposedly the arch-skeptic, quipped that no sane person could doubt that Jesus existed (though he himself came surprisingly close to the same opinion, as did Paul Tillich). For a number of years I held a more or less Bultmannian estimate of the historical Jesus as a prophet heralding the arrival of the eschatological Kingdom of God, an end to which his parables, faith healings and exorcisms were directed. Jesus had, I thought, predicted the coming of the Son of Man, an angelic figure who should raise the dead and judge mankind. When his cleansing of the temple invited the unforgiving ire of the Sadducee establishment, in cahoots with the Romans, he sealed his own doom. He died by crucifixion, and a few days later his disciples began experiencing visions of him raised from the dead. They concluded that he himself was now to be considered the Son of Man, and they expected his messianic advent in the near future.

From this eminently reasonable position (its cogency reinforced by the unfolding of the messiahship of Lubavitcher Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson) I eventually found myself gravitating to that crazy view, that Jesus hadn’t existed, that he was mythic all the way down, like Hercules. I do not hold it as a dogma. I do not prefer that it be true. It is just that the evidence now seems to me to point that way. The burden of proof would seem to belong with those who believe there was an historical man named Jesus. I fully admit and remind the reader that all historical hypotheses are provisional and tentative. This one certainly is. And yet I do favor it. Why?

I remember first encountering the notion that the Jesus saga was formally similar to the Mediterranean dying and rising god myths of saviors including Attis, Adonis, Tammuz/Dumuzi, Dionysus, Osiris, and Baal. I felt almost at once that the jig was up. I could not explain away those parallels, parallels that went right to the heart of the thing. I felt momentary respite when I read the false reassurances of Bruce M. Metzger (may this great man rest in peace), J.N.D. Anderson, Edwin Yamauchi (may I someday gain a tenth of his knowledge!), and others that these parallels were false or that they were later in origin, perhaps even borrowed by the pagans from Christianity. But it did not take long to discover the spurious nature of such apologetical special pleading. There was ample and early pre-Christian evidence for the dying and rising gods. The parallels were very close. And it was simply not true that no one ever held that, like Jesus, these saviors had been historical figures. And if the ancient apologists had not known that the pagan parallels were pre-Christian, why on earth would they have mounted a suicidal argument that Satan counterfeited the real dying and rising god ahead of time. That is like the fundamentalists of the 19th century arguing desperately that God created fossils of dinosaurs that had never existed.

And, yet, all of this scarcely proved that Jesus had not existed at all. Bultmann freely admitted that such myths clothed and shaped the form of resurrection belief among the early Christians, but he felt there had actually been certain Easter morning experiences, visions that might have given rise to a different explanation in a different age. I now think Bultmann’s argument runs afoul of Ockham’s Razor, since it posits redundant explanations. If you recognize the recurrence of the pagan savior myth in the Christian proclamation, then no need remains to suggest an initial “Big Bang” (Burton L. Mack) of an Easter Morning Experience of the First Disciples.

G.A. Wells, like his predecessors advocating the Christ Myth theory, discounted the gospel story of an historical Jesus, an itinerant teacher and miracle worker, on the grounds of its seeming absence from the Epistle literature, earlier than the gospels, implying that there was no Jesus tradition floating around in either oral or written form at the time Paul and Peter were writing letters. All they referred to was a supernatural Son of God who descended from heaven to vanquish the evil angels ruling the world, then returned heavenward to reign in divine glory till his second advent. Had Paul known of the teaching of Jesus, why did he not quote it when it would have settled this and that controversial question (e.g., paying Roman taxes, celibacy for the Kingdom, congregational discipline)? Why does he seem to refer to occasional “commands of the Lord” in a manner so vague as to suggest charismatic revelations to himself? Why does he never mention Jesus having healed the sick or done miracles? How can he say the Roman Empire never punishes the righteous, only the wicked?

This is a weighty argument, but another makes it almost superfluous. Take the gospel Jesus story as a whole, whether earlier or later than the Jesus story of the Epistles; it is part and parcel of the Mythic Hero Archetype shared by cultures and religions worldwide and throughout history (Lord Raglan and then, later, Alan Dundes showed this in great detail.). Leave the gospel story on the table, then. You still do not have any truly historical data. There is no “secular” biographical information about Jesus. Even the seeming “facts” irrelevant to faith dissolve upon scrutiny. Did he live in Nazareth? Or was that a tendentious reinterpretation of the earlier notion he had been thought a member of the Nazorean sect? Did he work some years as a carpenter? Or does that story not rather reflect the crowd’s pegging him as an expert in scripture, a la the Rabbinic proverb, “Not even a carpenter, or a carpenter’s son could solve this one!”? Was his father named Joseph, or is that an historicization of his earlier designation as the Galilean Messiah, Messiah ben Joseph? On and on it goes, and when we are done, there is nothing left of Jesus that does not appear to serve all too clearly the interests of faith, the faith even of rival, hence contradictory, factions among the early Christians.

I admit that a historical hero might attract to himself the standard flattering legends and myths to the extent that the original lines of the figure could no longer be discerned. He may have lived nonetheless. Can we tell the difference between such cases and others where we can still discern at least some historical core? Apollonius of Tyana, itinerant Neo-Pythagorean contemporary of Jesus (with whom the ancients often compare him) is one such. He, too, seems entirely cut from the cloth of the fabulous. His story, too, conforms exactly to the Mythic Hero Archetype. To a lesser extent, so does Caesar Augustus, of whom miracles were told. The difference is that Jesus has left no footprint on profane history as these others managed to do. The famous texts of Josephus and Tacitus, even if genuine, amount merely to references to the preaching of contemporary Christians, not reporting about Jesus as a contemporary. We still have documentation from people who claimed to have met Apollonius, Peregrinus, and, of course, Augustus. It might be that Jesus was just as historical as these other remarkable individuals, and that it was mere chance that no contemporary documentation referring to him survives. But we cannot assume the truth of that for which we have no evidence.

A paragraph back, I referred to the central axiom of form criticism: that nothing would have been passed down in the tradition unless it was useful to prove some point, to provide some precedent. I am sorry to say that this axiom cancels out another, the Criterion of Dissimilarity: the closer a Jesus-saying seems to match the practice or teaching of the early Church, the greater likelihood that it stems from the latter and has been placed fictively into the speech or life of Jesus merely to secure its authority. Put the two principles together and observe how one consumes the other without remainder: all pericopae of the Jesus tradition owe their survival to the fact that they were useful. On the assumption that Christians saw some usefulness to them, we can posit a Sitz-im-Leben Kirche for each one. And that means it is redundant to posit a pre-Christian Sitz-im-Leben Jesu context. None of it need go back to Jesus.

Additionally, we can demonstrate that every hortatory saying is so closely paralleled in contemporary Rabbinic or Hellenistic lore that there is no particular reason to be sure this or that saying originated with Jesus. Such words commonly passed from one famous name to another, especially in Jewish circles, as Jacob Neusner has shown. Jesus might have said it, sure, but then he was just one more voice in the general choir. Is that what we want to know about him? And, as Bultmann observed, who remembers the great man quoting somebody else?

Another shocker: it hit me like a ton of bricks when I realized, after studying much previous research on the question, that virtually every story in the gospels and Acts can be shown to be very likely a Christian rewrite of material from the Septuagint, Homer, Euripides’ Bacchae, and Josephus. One need not be David Hume to see that, if a story tells us a man multiplied food to feed a multitude, it is inherently much more likely that the story is a rewrite of an older miracle tale (starring Elisha) than that it is a report of a real event. A literary origin is always to be preferred to an historical one in such a case. And that is the choice we have to make in virtually every case of New Testament narrative. I refer the interested reader to my essay “New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash,” in Jacob Neusner and Alan Avery-Peck, eds., Encyclopedia of Midrash. Of course I am dependent here upon many fine works by Randel Helms, Thomas L. Brodie, John Dominic Crossan, and others. None of them went as far as I am going. It is just that as I counted up the gospel stories I felt each scholar had convincingly traced back to a previous literary prototype, it dawned on me that there was virtually nothing left. None tried to argue for the fictive character of the whole tradition, and each offered some cases I found arbitrary and implausible. Still, their work, when combined, militated toward a wholly fictive Jesus story.

It is not as if I believe there is no strong argument for an historical Jesus. There is one: one can very plausibly read certain texts in Acts, Mark, and Galatians as fossils preserving the memory of a succession struggle following the death of Jesus, who, therefore, must have existed. Who should follow Jesus as his vicar on earth? His disciples (analogous to the Companions of the Prophet Muhammad, who provided the first three caliphs)? Or should it be the Pillars, his own relatives (the Shi’ite Muslims called Muhammad’s kinsmen the Pillars, too, and supported their dynastic claims). One can trace the same struggles in the Baha’i Faith after the death of the Bab (Mirza Ali Muhammad): who should rule, his brother Subh-i-Azal, or his disciple Hussein Ali, Baha’Ullah? Who should follow the Prophet Joseph Smith? His disciples, or his son, Joseph, Jr.? When the Honorable Elijah Muhammad died, Black Muslims split and followed either his son and heir Wareeth Deen Muhammad or his former lieutenant Louis Farrakhan. In the New Testament, as Harnack and Stauffer argued, we seem to see the remains of a Caliphate of James. And that implies (though it does not prove) an historical Jesus.

And it implies an historical Jesus of a particular type. It implies a Jesus who was a latter-day Judah Maccabee, with a group of brothers who could take up the banner when their eldest brother, killed in battle, perforce let it fall. S.G.F. Brandon made a very compelling case for the original revolutionary character of Jesus, subsequently sanitized and made politically harmless by Mark the evangelist. Judging by the skirt-clutching outrage of subsequent scholars, Mark’s apologetical efforts to depoliticize the Jesus story have their own successors. Brandon’s work is a genuine piece of the classic Higher Criticism of the gospels, with the same depth of reason and argumentation. If there was an historical Jesus, my vote is for Brandon’s version.

But I must point out that there is another way to read the evidence for the Zealot Jesus hypothesis. As Burton Mack has suggested, the political element in the Passion seems likely to represent an anachronistic confusion by Mark with the events leading to the fall of Jerusalem. When the Olivet Discourse warns its readers not to take any of a number of false messiahs and Zealot agitators for their own Jesus, does this not imply Christians were receiving the news of Theudas or Jesus ben Ananias or John of Gischala as news of Jesus’ return? You don’t tell people not to do what they’re already not doing. If they were making such confusions, it would be inevitable that the events attached to them would find their way back into the telling of the Jesus story. It looks like this very thing happened. One notices how closely the interrogation and flogging of Jesus ben-Ananias, in trouble for predicting the destruction of the temple, parallels that of Jesus, ostensibly 40 years previously. We notice how Simon bar Gioras was welcomed into the temple with palm branches to cleanse the sacred precinct from the “thieves” who infested it, Zealots under John of Gischala. Uh-oh. Suppose these signs of historical-political verisimilitude are interlopers in the gospels from the following generation. The evidence for the Zealot Jesus evaporates.

I have not tried to amass every argument I could think of to destroy the historicity of Jesus. Rather, I have summarized the series of realizations about methodology and evidence that eventually led me to embrace the Christ Myth Theory. There may once have been an historical Jesus, but for us there is one no longer. If he existed, he is forever lost behind the stained glass curtain of holy myth. At least that’s the current state of the evidence as I see it.
 
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davidoffinland

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Western Christianity has been unsettled more ways than one when after the Age of Enlightment...the Critical theories, etc...has made Christianity in the West...U.S., U.K. and Western Europe as it is now.

The truth that has set me free has been the study of 1st Ct Jewish/Christian history. I would say a large percentage of christians and non-christians do not know too much of this history especially in Jewish/Christian thought of the times. When they begin to study these things in Scripture, they view things through their Gentile perpectives heavily laided with Grecian philosophical or analytical thought.

I remember one time when I was in Israel on a study mission, one member of the team wanted to see the actually historical steps of Moses when he crossed the Sea. Many members in some particular church have been side-lined in their faith when they come to view things like this...more so in liberal-inclined denominations.

It is time to step back and view things anew!

In Him, david.
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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From Finland.

Western Christianity has been unsettled more ways than one when after the Age of Enlightment...the Critical theories, etc...has made Christianity in the West...U.S., U.K. and Western Europe as it is now.

The truth that has set me free has been the study of 1st Ct Jewish/Christian history. I would say a large percentage of christians and non-christians do not know too much of this history especially in Jewish/Christian thought of the times. When they begin to study these things in Scripture, they view things through their Gentile perpectives heavily laided with Grecian philosophical or analytical thought.

I remember one time when I was in Israel on a study mission, one member of the team wanted to see the actually historical steps of Moses when he crossed the Sea. Many members in some particular church have been side-lined in their faith when they come to view things like this...more so in liberal-inclined denominations.

It is time to step back and view things anew!

In Him, david.
I love that Finnish has 15 cases...love agglutination...
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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You have just presented an entirely emotional argument.

No, I've simply presented my own conclusions based on study and inquiry. That is exactly what you did in your first post as well. You also did not present any evidence or proof of your conclusions, you just raised a few questions about Christian belief. I too raised questions concerning naturalism. If my post is supposedly "emotional" then your OP is emotional as well.

Because something is comforting DOES NOT mean it is true.

I agree. You said you are now comfortable with Modern Science and a naturalist viewpoint. But that certainly doesn't mean the naturalist viewpoint is true.

The cosmological evidence of the universe suggests that there is no purpose (save perhaps to create black holes, which isn't a very uplifting purpose for us mammals). I can invent any number of things and ascribe purpose to the universe through them but they ultimately must be recognised as wish thinking.

I agree, and that was my point in my previous post. Its also one of the reasons why I reject the naturalist worldview. It doesn't offer me anything. And if it doesn't offer my anything, then I might as well become a Nihilist. And if I'm a Nihilist, then why should I even assume there is any order to the universe if there is no meaning?

Religions of all sort persist because of their comfort/consolation value, not because of the veracity of their claims to the structure of the universe.

You also used "hope" in the OP to describe your position - is that not also an expression of comfort/consolation? If a naturalist extends "hope" to potential converts, then one can easily conclude that naturalism is not just a philosophy, but a type of religion.

You assume all Christians are existentialists. Most are not. My own inquiry and investigation reveals that Christianity is a historical faith based on historical fact. I have also discovered that Christianity is the most reasonable worldview out of all the worldviews I have encountered. One may disagree with my conclusions, but it is highly presumptuous to reject the evidence for my conclusions before one has seen it.

Maybe existence is brief and meaningless and that is where the evidence points, regardless of how consoling religious propositions are. We are stuck on this mudball of a tiny planet in a comos so vast we cannot even imagine its dimensions, save in obscure mathematical terms.

And if this is true, then what is the point for taking any worldview? Like I said, there is no significance. There is nothing within naturalism that addresses values. One could take any value and rationalize it. Under naturalism, one could be a serial killer as much as another could be an outstanding community member.

Naturalism, if taken straight up and seriously, easily slides into Nihilism. In Nihilism everything becomes meaningless. Douglas Adams in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy series had it right: the Question (what is six times nine?) and the Answer (42) are mutually exclusive. Adam's point is there is no Question, and there is no Answer.

Naturalism doesn't provide any real Question and doesn't answer any real Answer.


Where is the evidence for the specifics of Christian doctrine in light of this?

What are you trying to ask? Science and Christianity aren't mutually exclusive. Christians like myself have no problems with the vastness of the universe with its mind boggling numbers.

Unlike Naturalism, Christianity doesn't offer obscure mathematical numbers and leave it at that. The vastness of the universe is perfectly acceptable to me because I believe in the One who created the universe. My life is not meaningless, even though I know one day I will die. My life is not lived without hope. This planet is not just one insignificant among billions of others, it has special significance.


LDG
 
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LamorakDesGalis

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great read...

Robert Price's first sentence sums it up well:

"When, long ago, I first learned that some theorized that Jesus had never existed as an historical figure, I dismissed the notion as mere crankism, as most still do."

Robert Price was right the first time.

Most non-Christian historians and scholars consider the "Jesus as Myth" to have been refuted because there are too many problems and issues otherwise.

For additional details, check out the mainstream scholarly reception section of the Jesus as Myth wikipedia article.


LDG
 
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Strong in Him

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I wrote a reply to this a couple of hours ago but the computer ate it, so hopefully I can remember what I wanted to say.

I was once a liberal Christian for a fair bit of time in my life yet knew very little about the inception of the Bible, the religion and Christian history proper. I began studying the subject in complete innocence some ten years ago, something that eventually led me away from Christianity to Agnosticism/Apatheism, simply by researching history...

This is sad. :( I don't know what history you studied or how deep your research was, but there are a few things in your thread that you should be aware of, or at least consider, if you want to be able to form an unbiased opinion.

To begin with I started reading about the Gospel writers, who, it is taught were 'eyewitnesses' to Jesus of Nazareth's career on earth. After reading genuine scholarship, this notion was quickly dispelled. Anonymous writers, writing decades after the 'fact' with Mark being the first around 70 CE and all the others copying him in the 80's, 90's CE and later.

Who taught you that the Gospel writers were all eyewitnesses? It's likely that John's Gospel was written by the apostle himself, or at least that he was very closely involved in writing it. Mark's Gospel was probably written by John Mark, a cousin of Barnabas and one of Paul's travelling companions. It is also likely that the apostle Peter was one of the sources behind this Gospel. Papias, who lived about 140 AD, has written that Mark was an interpreter for Peter, and wrote down everything that he remembered of Christ. It should be noted also, that Jesus' stories and teachings were repeated many times - the early church told stories about him everywhere they travelled - and a Jew was used to memorising large passages of Scripture/law, so these memories would have been very accurate. Not like someone whose suddenly been asked to write about an event he hadn't thought of for years.

It is also thought possible, by theologians etc, that Jesus' mother herself was a source behind the writing of Luke's Gospel, which is why he tells her story of Jesus' conception and birth and includes her visit to Elizabeth and her song of praise - the magnificat.

Mark is one of the sources for Matthew and Luke, but as their accounts are much longer than his and each include material that he doesn't, it cannot have been the only source. So they did not "copy" him.

Studying Paul's epistles and other writings I searched in vain for the Gospel events described by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. He doesn't even talk about a man who lived on earth recently; no Mary, Joseph, Herod, Pilate, Temptation, etc...

Paul died about 64 AD, so his epistles were written before the Gospels were. His account of the last supper in 1 Corinthians 11 is therefore the earliest account of this that we have. Paul also writes about the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15. He said that the Lord rose on the third day, appeared to Peter and the apostles, and then to more than 500 people - most of whom are still alive. In other words; if you don't believe these things I am writing, go and ask someone for yourself. There are also the words that someone has already quoted, about Jesus being born of Mary, and an occasion where he quotes Jesus, even though this phrase doesn't appaer in the Gospels; "as the Lord Jesus said, 'it is more blessed to give than to receive'." (Acts 20:35.)
Also, Paul was writing letters to the churches he had already founded - ie who had heard the Gospel and stories about Jesus. He wrote to encourage them in the faith, apply the Gospel in their daily lives, and stand up for what they believed against the heresies that were beginning to invade the church, and the pagan cultures in which some of them lived. He wrote to sort out problems, address pastoral issues and generally encourage them as he would do if he were physically able to be with them.

Then I looked at the external evidence, that is extra-biblical evidence for the Gospel story and Jesus Christ. I was shocked at how paucidly the Jesus of Nazareth figure was attested outside of the NT and the that the various events weren't attested at all, such as the slaughter of innocents by Herod, seemingly derived straight from the OT book of Exodus, the trial of Jesus and all of these other 'events'. All the pagan and Jewish witness that does mention Jesus, inevitably comes decades after his 'time', all of which suffering from tampering by Christian interpolation.

What external corroboration do you want? I'm sure there is plenty for the people and places mentioned in the Gospels; Herod, Caesar Augustus, Pontius Pilate, Bethlehem, Jerusalem, the temple, Herod's palace and so on. What about some of the people and events Jesus spoke about - Moses, David, the 10 commandments, the Jewish law, Abraham, Jonah and so on? Or have you latched on to this phrase that Josephus wrote, which some people think has been added to by Christians, and concluded that therefore the whole thing must be a fake? It is also thought that, even if some people did add the words "he was the Messiah", or whatever the phrase was, the basic written record is correct - that Josephus referred to a man called Jesus of Nazareth. There are also apparently references to Jesus and some of the early church in Pliny and Tacitus' writings. I haven't researched it thoroughly so I can't say for sure.

It seems clear to me that all the major religions, and probably many minor ones, accept that Jesus exisited -Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists etc. What they disagree on is who he was - i.e the Son of God, the Messiah - and what he did - died to save us from sin and was raised from the dead by God.

And there is also the fact that the Christian church exists, and has done for nearly 2000 years. How about that for history? The disciples were changed men after the resurrection. They went out and procalimed the Gospel, and many were killed for it. It is reported that the Jewish authorities paid the solgdiers guarding the tomb to say that the disciples came and stole his body - yet no one ever produced it and, as I say, the disciples went to their deaths proclaiming that Jesus had risen and was alive. Millions of people since have lived and died with this knowledge. Faith in the risen Christ has led people to found schools, hospitals, and organisations such as the samaritans and the Salvation army. Others have fought to get the slave trade abolished, establish racial equality, and get help for homeless people, drug addicts or alcoholics. People have gone to third world countries to help the poor, tarnslate Scriptures, build hospitals, and so on, and some have died their for their faith.

After several years of further study I lost my faith. The loss became even more cemented by reading modern science, in particular modern cosmology, about which Christianity had/has nothing to say.

There are many scientists who are Christians. Some have become Christians through their scientific studies, others have studied/do study science while seeing no conflict with their Christian faith. With regards to creation, for example, Genesis explains WHY it happened - because God wanted it to - not HOW. Science can explain HOW, but not WHY.

I can honestly say that I am happier now with the knowledge I have acquired than I was when I was living in 'faith' to things that were simply beaten into me as a child and I accepted on no good grounds.

This is a message of hope for those who are going through this process brought about by enquiry. Life DOES continue after you lose faith and it can be even better than it was with it...

Well that's up to you. It doesn't sound as though you've studied it that closely, but maybe your liberal faith told you that the Bible wasn't true and you just wanted to find something that would confirm it to you.

...The truth will set you free...in more ways than one...:thumbsup:

Interesting - you've decided against faith in Jesus, yet you still quote him. Yes, the truth does set us free. Jesus is truth and he sets us free from sin and fear of death. Many, many people also testify that he has set them free from addiction, bad habits, bad temper, low self esteem etc etc. We are free to accept God's love and forgiveness, and to become the people he wants us to be.
 
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Epiphoskei

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the conflicting birth dates are another smoking gun that dispels the notion of 'eyewitness' accounts to anything.

...The gospels don't contain any "birth dates." Care to unpack what you mean by this statement?
 
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Rick Otto

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An yet none of the Gospel story details is contained in the epistles of Paul, although they date much earlier. He makes no mention of Bethlehem, Nazareth, Mary, Joseph or any of the other events.
Why should he re-iterate what was somebody else's story to tell? I'm pretty sure he knew about the gospels of Matt, Mrk, Luke & John, wouldn't you think so too?

The way he describes Christ is 'Christ Jesus', not Jesus of Nazareth, an actual historical person who lived in recent times.
Um, what's the dif? How recent? I thought you doubted His historical existence, or are you talkin' about another Jesus? Sorry I'm so easily confused.
Surely if Paul knew of all the details of the Gospel story of a human Jesus he would have provided them.
Well, I'm sure he probably did in sermons and preachin' but all his letters are to people already familiar with it, yes?
If you look at the choice of verbs in the Greek it also hints at a Cosmic Son of God not an historical figure who was tried and crucified by Pilate
Isn't that two different aspects of the same Guy?
 
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Kristos

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Hail to All,

I was once a liberal Christian for a fair bit of time in my life yet knew very little about the inception of the Bible, the religion and Christian history proper. I began studying the subject in complete innocence some ten years ago, something that eventually led me away from Christianity to Agnosticism/Apatheism, simply by researching history...it is true; in some ways ignorance IS bliss...

To begin with I started reading about the Gospel writers, who, it is taught were 'eyewitnesses' to Jesus of Nazareth's career on earth. After reading genuine scholarship, this notion was quickly dispelled. Anonymous writers, writing decades after the 'fact' with Mark being the first around 70 CE and all the others copying him in the 80's, 90's CE and later. Studying Paul's epistles and other writings I searched in vain for the Gospel events described by Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. He doesn't even talk about a man who lived on earth recently; no Mary, Joseph, Herod, Pilate, Temptation, etc...

Then I looked at the external evidence, that is extra-biblical evidence for the Gospel story and Jesus Christ. I was shocked at how paucidly the Jesus of Nazareth figure was attested outside of the NT and the that the various events weren't attested at all, such as the slaughter of innocents by Herod, seemingly derived straight from the OT book of Exodus, the trial of Jesus and all of these other 'events'. All the pagan and Jewish witness that does mention Jesus, inevitably comes decades after his 'time', all of which suffering from tampering by Christian interpolation.

After several years of further study I lost my faith. The loss became even more cemented by reading modern science, in particular modern cosmology, about which Christianity had/has nothing to say.

I can honestly say that I am happier now with the knowledge I have acquired than I was when I was living in 'faith' to things that were simply beaten into me as a child and I accepted on no good grounds.

This is a message of hope for those who are going through this process brought about by enquiry. Life DOES continue after you lose faith and it can be even better than it was with it...

The truth will set you free...in more ways than one...:thumbsup:
Sorry to hear that.

Of course, that's why it's called faith.

Either it's true or it's the most diabolical farce in the history of mankind.
 
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OnceUponAChristian

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Robert Price's first sentence sums it up well:

"When, long ago, I first learned that some theorized that Jesus had never existed as an historical figure, I dismissed the notion as mere crankism, as most still do."

Robert Price was right the first time.

Most non-Christian historians and scholars consider the "Jesus as Myth" to have been refuted because there are too many problems and issues otherwise.

For additional details, check out the mainstream scholarly reception section of the Jesus as Myth wikipedia article.


LDG
I have seen the socalled refutations; they are scorn, contempt and derision and have nothing to do with scholarship and actually dealing with the points made in favour of the Jesus Myth...

Wikipedia...sigh...
 
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