How far would you go to stop murder?

Catechumen · Feb 1, 2006

Autumnleaf said:
My question is this. If you believed something legal was killing innocent people, how far would you go to stop it?

I would go as far as would be necessary. If that means risking my life to save even one young, precious, innocent human life then alright.

Illuminatus · Feb 1, 2006

Cerberus~ said:
If that were the case, it wouldn't be murder.

Nah, it's called "capital punishment".

elman · Feb 1, 2006

Adiya said:
You are incorrect. If you'd like me to explain to you why I know you're incorrect, then you'll have to pm me. I won't give examples of my experiences here, but I will say that the partial birth abortions that I was witness to involved the injection of medication to cause contractions, the live birth of a child, feet first, and the murdering of of the child, while it's head was forced to remain in the vagina.

For more information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction

You should not speak of things like this when you do not have all of the information. You cannot know if you have not been there, and too often clinics will tell you that this simply doesn't happen. They're lying. Now that I have told you the truth, if you proceed to share the fabricated "nicer version" that you did in your post, you'll be lying too.

I don't think you are lying and I do think it is possible you are correctly describing things. I suspect however you saw what you wanted to see and I further suspect the doctors and people involved in what you saw would be able to present a different perspective. This is the problem with these issues. No one is presenting a balanced search for truth. Perhaps no one is able to do that.

"" · Feb 1, 2006

elman said:
I suspect however you saw what you wanted to see and I further suspect the doctors and people involved in what you saw would be able to present a different perspective.

Being that I am the one you suspect would be able to present a different perspective, I would have to tell you that you have nothing to add to this topic, with regard to my experiences. You cannot add to them, nor can you subtract. What do you think I am anyway, office personnel who just happened to be in the surgi-procedure room? I don't know what you know about medical clinics, especially those that offer abortion services, but they don't allow non-surgical personnel in the procedural room.

This is the problem with these issues. No one is presenting a balanced search for truth. Perhaps no one is able to do that.

I don't know how much more truthful I can be, unless you wanted me to give you a microscopic view of the entire procedure.

Rygel · Feb 1, 2006

Cerberus~ said:
If that were the case, it wouldn't be murder.

No, it wouldn't

loriersea · Feb 1, 2006

Adiya said:
You are incorrect. If you'd like me to explain to you why I know you're incorrect, then you'll have to pm me. I won't give examples of my experiences here, but I will say that the partial birth abortions that I was witness to involved the injection of medication to cause contractions, the live birth of a child, feet first, and the murdering of of the child, while it's head was forced to remain in the vagina.

I have to say that I doubt the veracity of your post. The number of D&X procedures that occur each year number in the low hundreds, and nearly all are done to save the life of the mother. It is extremely hard to imagine that you, as one individual, have been witness to more than one of these procedures, and entirely unbelievable that you were ever witness to an elective D&X, since it is unlikely that they occur.

I'm also not sure why you would have been present at any of these. I mean, I am very in favor of women having access to legal abortion, but I would never attend or condone an elective (i.e., not medically necessary to save the mother's life) D&X. Since no health care provider is required to provide abortions, I'm not sure why you would have been present at these procedures.

Moros · Feb 2, 2006

Autumnleaf said:
I was reading a book called Gathering of the Lambs written by a retired Catholic Priest/army leutenant colonel who has a group which travels around and tries to shut down abortion clinics.

Sounds like he has some guilty baggage.

simpletrust · Feb 2, 2006

Rygel said:
No, it wouldn't

And why not?

katautumn · Feb 2, 2006

D&X procedures exist. "Partial Birth Abortion" is a made up term for the procedure.

As far as people taking drastic measures to prevent abortion, I don't believe they should ever be made to feel as if they're somehow above the law. Dr. Barnett Slepian was murdered in his own home - shot through the kitchen window while doing dishes with his wife and child in the room with him. How is this justifiable?

kopilo · Feb 2, 2006

I would have to weigh up the pain my actions may cause as well as all further reprocussions versus 'letting people die'. Then I would evaluate which is the best way to stop it, also ask other people about stopping it and then plan and take action.

Hence if I were anti-abortion, I would be trying to talk mothers out of having an abortion, rather then trying to take away a safe means, in which could cause a lot more harm then 'good'.

As far as how far would I go.. I do not know as we do not know our limits before they are tested.. However I have an inclination I would go way past my own health and well being if it were something I was passionate about.

kopilo · Feb 2, 2006

KatAutumn said:
D&X procedures exist. "Partial Birth Abortion" is a made up term for the procedure.

As far as people taking drastic measures to prevent abortion, I don't believe they should ever be made to feel as if they're somehow above the law. Dr. Barnett Slepian was murdered in his own home - shot through the kitchen window while doing dishes with his wife and child in the room with him. How is this justifiable?

with stupidity? and maybe hate? or a range of human flaws of the shooter?

"" · Feb 2, 2006

loriersea said:
I have to say that I doubt the veracity of your post.

I have to say that I don't care what you doubt.

I'm also not sure why you would have been present at any of these.

Then you haven't been paying attention have you. Did you think they were performed all by themselves?

Since no health care provider is required to provide abortions, I'm not sure why you would have been present at these procedures.

We've gone over this already. So I guess you think the patient performs the procedure themselves then. When you have something credible to add, let me know. Until then, between the two of us, I'm the expert, and you're just somebody voicing an opinion. You're welcome to your opinion, but it's not backed up by experience, or by education. Again, between the two of us, that is only applicable to you.

loriersea · Feb 2, 2006

Adiya said:
I have to say that I don't care what you doubt.

Then you haven't been paying attention have you. Did you think they were performed all by themselves?

We've gone over this already. So I guess you think the patient performs the procedure themselves then. When you have something credible to add, let me know. Until then, between the two of us, I'm the expert, and you're just somebody voicing an opinion. You're welcome to your opinion, but it's not backed up by experience, or by education. Again, between the two of us, that is only applicable to you.

Obviously, they are not performed by themselves. But, when they ARE performed, 99% of the time it is because the mother's life is at risk. I can't imagine that you were present for the handful of procedures that have been done for no good reason, and I would seriously hope that you would not revel in self-righteousness in a situation where a woman was having a procedure she wished she didn't have to have in order to save her life.

Autumnleaf · Feb 2, 2006

KatAutumn said:
D&X procedures exist. "Partial Birth Abortion" is a made up term for the procedure.

Dr. Barnett Slepian was murdered in his own home - shot through the kitchen window while doing dishes with his wife and child in the room with him. How is this justifiable?

Since the name was new to me I Googled "Barnett Slepian" and came up with a bunch of accusations calling him a 'baby killer who is burning in Hell'. If enough people believe this, we either have a case of mass hysteria or what some might find as a compelling reason for this guy to die.

"" · Feb 2, 2006

loriersea said:
Obviously, they are not performed by themselves. But, when they ARE performed, 99% of the time it is because the mother's life is at risk. I can't imagine that you were present for the handful of procedures that have been done for no good reason, and I would seriously hope that you would not revel in self-righteousness in a situation where a woman was having a procedure she wished she didn't have to have in order to save her life.

What's the point in this? I could understand if we you were actually debating a point here, but you're doing nothing more than telling me that you can't imagine that I was present when I'm telling you that I was. Now, for several posts here you've been going off on this tangent. Again, what is your point? Frankly, I do not give out information about former patients, but I can assure you that none of them had to have the procedure because their life was at risk. I'm sure that it must be beyond your imagination for a women to come to a clinic, asking for an abortion, when they are noticeably pregnant, but I can't help you with that.

Zakath · Feb 4, 2006

Autumnleaf said:
Since the name was new to me I Googled "Barnett Slepian" and came up with a bunch of accusations calling him a 'baby killer who is burning in Hell'. If enough people believe this, we either have a case of mass hysteria or what some might find as a compelling reason for this guy to die.

From Wickipedia entry for "Barnett Slepian"

Barnett Slepian (October 21, 1946 October 23, 1998) was a Jewish physician in Amherst, New York in the United States who was killed in his home by an anti-abortion activist, James Charles Kopp. Slepian was one of several physicians, nurses, and health care workers, killed or injured by anti-abortion activists.
Slepian was an obstetrician/gynecologist with his own practice, but he also provided services at a local clinic, GYN Women's Services.
On Friday, October 23, 1998, Slepian had returned from synagogue and was preparing soup in his kitchen when he was shot in the shoulder through a window. He died a few hours later. He was aged 52. Kopp fled, but was arrested in France. He was tried and convicted in Buffalo, New York and is currently serving a term of imprisonment.
The killing climaxed a series of five sniper attacks in four years in northern New York and Canada. Dr. Slepian was the fourth doctor and seventh person in the USA to be killed, supposedly because of their involvement with performing abortions.

This was about the 7th entry down when I googled it.

Wickwoman · Feb 7, 2006

Autumnleaf, I think if this group you are speaking of in the OP is very concerned about stopping murder, there are plenty of ways for them to prevent murders of people who are already living here on earth. As is common with many anti-abortion activists, they fail to see the misery already existing among the living. And if they were interested in stopping human suffering they would start there.

It is not proven to what degree a fetus suffers or when human life begins. But suffering, living, and dying is quite common among people in inner city ghettos. Perhaps this group could start alieviating suffering there. And they will find themselves in jail less often, if at all.

loriersea · Feb 7, 2006

Wickwoman said:
As is common with most anti-abortion activists, they fail to see the misery already existing among the living.

Those who lobby for the return of illegal abortion also tend to ignore the very sad, very real fact that the United States has the highest rate of infant mortality in the developed world. That means that every year thousands of very wanted babies are dying, usually for preventable reasons. A pro-baby stance would mean lobbying for adequate medical care and nutrition for every pregnant woman--and making sure they know how to access it--and not trying to return to the days pre-Roe when women still got many, many abortions, but just had them illegally.

kopilo · Feb 7, 2006

Wickwoman said:
Autumnleaf, I think if this group you are speaking of in the OP is very concerned about stopping murder, there are plenty of ways for them to prevent murders of people who are already living here on earth. As is common with many anti-abortion activists, they fail to see the misery already existing among the living. And if they were interested in stopping human suffering they would start there.

It is not proven to what degree a fetus suffers or when human life begins. But suffering, living, and dying is quite common among people in inner city ghettos. Perhaps this group could start alieviating suffering there. And they will find themselves in jail less often, if at all.

There are many of different things people who "fight" abortion could be doing which one may argue is a more crucial moral issue.. (just take a look at the thread "What is the most pressing moral issue of our time".
However it seems many people have vision with blinkers.

loriersea · Feb 7, 2006

kopilo said:
There are many of different things people who "fight" abortion could be doing which one may argue is a more crucial moral issue.. (just take a look at the thread "What is the most pressing moral issue of our time".
However it seems many people have vision with blinkers.

Also, "fighting abortion" is entirely different from "fighting to make abortion illegal." Most efforts to make abortion illegal also involve efforts, like abstinence-only education and limiting access to birth control, that will just make illegal abortions more likely were the efforts to make abortion illegal succeed.

How far would you go to stop murder?

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