How Far Left? This Far...

essentialsaltes · Nov 25, 2019

Just because Obama was painted by his opponents as an un-American radical socialist doesn't mean he was one. Of course he was pretty middle of the road, and gobbled up independents.

Trump's base has shrunk to a hardened nut of deplorables, so this does open the opportunity for the Democrats to go left. But yes, if they go too far in that direction, the independents and disaffected Republicans won't come along for the ride. We'll see what emerges from the primaries.

Mountainmanbob · Nov 25, 2019

Speedwell said:
Which one of the most unpleasant things about conservatives--that they enjoy telling this lie.

When I was young I was a conservative. Now I am considered a liberal, and that a came about because I haven't changed my political opinions very much since I was young. Of course I was a young conservative before the Southern Strategy, which explains quite a bit of it.

And who are you to tell me that my thoughts and experiences are a lie?

That just Once Again proves where you all are coming from in regards to others.

As Trump would say, ?????
I agree with Trump.

M-Bob

Speedwell · Nov 25, 2019

Mountainmanbob said:
And who are you to tell me that my thoughts and experiences are a lie?

That just Once Again proves where you all are coming from in regards to others.

As Trump would say, ?????
I agree with Trump.

M-Bob

OK, you said,

"It's amazing that most of them on the (far left) seem to not even support, enjoy or like the US?????"

So I will take that "seem to" and tell you that your perception is false. But I still believe that you know it is false and enjoy contemplating it anyway--those are my thoughts and experiences.

GodLovesCats · Nov 25, 2019

Silmarien said:
I don't think the Democratic Party has moved too far to the left, if by left we mean economic policy. I'm not happy about the constant focus on identity politics, so I dislike that aspect of progressivism, but I think it's high time to have a real discussion on modern socialism.

The word "socialism" has never, ever meant "far left democracy." Republicans started calling progressives socialists as a derogatory term. In reality, socialism is a totally different political party and government. If America actually had socialists they would be identified as members of the Socialist Party with a separate logo, color, and motto. Instead, what we have are progressive Democrats.

98cwitr · Nov 25, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
The word "socialism" has never, ever meant "far left democracy." Republicans started calling progressives socialists as a derogatory term. In reality, socialism is a totally different political party and government. If America actually had socialists they would be identified as members of the Socialist Party with a separate logo, color, and motto. Instead, what we have are progressive Democrats.

So the Democratic Socialists of America is full of......?

iluvatar5150 · Nov 25, 2019

Speedwell said:
Which one of the most unpleasant things about conservatives--that they enjoy telling this lie.

When I was young I was a conservative. Now I am considered a liberal, and that a came about because I haven't changed my political opinions very much since I was young. Of course I was a young conservative before the Southern Strategy, which explains quite a bit of it.

I was also conservative when I was young. I became more left-center partly because the right moved further right, but mostly because upon researching various issues, I realized that standard conservative positions were mostly unfounded dogma.

GodLovesCats · Nov 25, 2019

Tanj said:
Mandating people give money to private, for profit companies might be a form of progression, but it sure isn't in the direction of the left.

Barack Obama actually changed his stance on that from children only during his first campaign to all ages while Congress tackled health care requirements. I never understood what the big deal was about it since all drivers are required to have vehicle insurance and nobody complains that should be optional.

Silmarien · Nov 25, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
The word "socialism" has never, ever meant "far left democracy." Republicans started calling progressives socialists as a derogatory term. In reality, socialism is a totally different political party and government. If America actually had socialists they would be identified as members of the Socialist Party with a separate logo, color, and motto. Instead, what we have are progressive Democrats.

I follow European politics more closely than American politics right now, so I'm pretty familiar with what modern socialism is. It isn't far-left democracy at all, but pretty mainstream center-left thought. The Democratic Party is still to the right of that, but the progressive wing of the party is definitely more in step with the European center-left. That is social democracy.

Socialism is not a derogatory term. It's a standard international one. I'd consider myself a distributist, but if someone wants to call me a socialist, I don't really care. I'm not a progressive, though.

98cwitr · Nov 25, 2019

Silmarien said:
Socialism is not a derogatory term. It's a standard international one. I'd consider myself a distributist, but if someone wants to call me a socialist, I don't really care. I'm not a progressive, though.

So what percentage of my labor does the state own?

GodLovesCats · Nov 25, 2019

Silmarien said:
Socialism is not a derogatory term. It's a standard international one. I'd consider myself a distributist, but if someone wants to call me a socialist, I don't really care. I'm not a progressive, though.

Socialism is not a derogatory term in itself but Republicans used it that way to criticize Obama for making Americans rely too much on the federal government. This seemed to start with the "cars for clunkers" (to my knowledge, anyway). It is similar to how the ACA was nicknamed "Obamacare."

Silmarien · Nov 25, 2019

98cwitr said:
So what percentage of my labor does the state own?

What is Distributism? A Controversial Alternative to Socialism and Plutocracy - Crisis Magazine

ChristianForCats said:
Socialism is not a derogatory term in itself but Republicans used it that way to criticize Obama for making Americans rely too much on the federal government. This seemed to start with the "cars for clunkers" (to my knowledge, anyway). It is similar to how the ACA was nicknamed "Obamacare."

"Liberal" and "progressive" are derogatory terms also when used by Republicans, so there's no really neutral term that can be used here.

Mountainmanbob · Nov 25, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
The word "socialism" has never, ever meant "far left democracy." Republicans started calling progressives socialists as a derogatory term. In reality, socialism is a totally different political party and government. If America actually had socialists they would be identified as members of the Socialist Party with a separate logo, color, and motto. Instead, what we have are progressive Democrats.

Correct me if I am wrong but, isn't Bernie Sanders a socialist?

He seems to represent many on the left?

M-Bob

GodLovesCats · Nov 25, 2019

If there is a D next to his name, he is not a socialist. To be a socialist, he must have the letter S, not D.

Speedwell · Nov 25, 2019

Mountainmanbob said:
Correct me if I am wrong but, isn't Bernie Sanders a socialist?

He seems to represent many on the left?

M-Bob

He's a Democratic Socialist; in other words, he advocates for strong social safety nets in a capitalist economy along the lines of the Nordic Model. Not the same thing as Socialism (without the "Democratic") which proposes state ownership of the means of production as an alternative to capitalism

Mountainmanbob · Nov 25, 2019

Democratic socialism is defined as having asocialist economy in which the means of production are socially and collectively owned or controlled, alongside a democratic political system of government. ... For Hain, thisdemocratic/authoritarian divide is more important than the revolutionary/reformist divide.

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki
Democratic socialism - Wikipedia

+++++++++++++++

Doesn't sound good to me my family and friends.
M-Bob

98cwitr · Nov 25, 2019

Silmarien said:
What is Distributism? A Controversial Alternative to Socialism and Plutocracy - Crisis Magazine

https://www.crisismagazine.com/2014...ontroversial-alternative-socialism-plutocracy

Seems very much a trojan horse. So how much again? Give me a number.

Silmarien · Nov 25, 2019

98cwitr said:
Seems very much a trojan horse. So how much again? Give me a number.

Trojan Horse to what? Saint Paul's exhortation to submit to authority and pay your taxes? I don't see what's suddenly so controversial about putting any sort of limit whatsoever on economic freedom.

Speedwell · Nov 25, 2019

Mountainmanbob said:
Democratic socialism is defined as having asocialist economy in which the means of production are socially and collectively owned or controlled, alongside a democratic political system of government. ... For Hain, thisdemocratic/authoritarian divide is more important than the revolutionary/reformist divide.
View attachment 267296
Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia › wiki
Democratic socialism - Wikipedia

+++++++++++++++

Doesn't sound good to me my family and friends.
M-Bob

Have you ever heard Bernie advocate for state ownership of the means of production?

98cwitr · Nov 25, 2019

Silmarien said:
Trojan Horse to what? Saint Paul's exhortation to submit to authority and pay your taxes? I don't see what's suddenly so controversial about putting any sort of limit whatsoever on economic freedom.

Distributism seems very much like a trojan horse. Someone or something must control the distribution, to whom, and how much.

I ask a third time: How much of my labor, in a numerical value representing the percentage, should the state own?

98cwitr · Nov 25, 2019

Speedwell said:
Have you ever heard Bernie advocate for state ownership of the means of production?

No, but the DSA sure does think he will! Democratic Socialists of America (DSA) - Workings towards a better future for all.

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