How exactly does the Vatican justify it's wealth?

Avatar is right. The stuff in the Vatican is not just religious bling, it is stuff with cultural-historical value. If the Vatican really would try to sell its stuff on e-bay, I guess the Italian Ministry of Culture would intervene rather quickly.

Clearly, you just need to look at images to see the accumulation of wealth the vatican holds in churches, museums, art and treasure.

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it seems you do not know much about the history of Architecture. its not like the Vatican bought all of those things at once, it accumulated over time from the begnining of Christ till now.

By the way. The Catholic Church is one of the biggest organizations that house and feed the homeless. Read on the St. Vincents fund. Nearly every Basillica and Cathedral has a food shelf and shelter for the homeless. And don't forget how many monastarys hid and sheltered the Jews in WWII..

have atheists ever done these things?

I suggest you knock on every mueseum and tell them to take down all their art and statue. Be sure to email every one.

Out of curiosity, have YOU ever lent to the homeless?? fed the poor?

Avatar said:

Those riches are history - art and architecture. They are preserved for the benefit of everyone.

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I have a feeling the below child would prefer food to art. So no... it's not for the benefit of everyone.

NoDoubt said:

Like Peter's so-called bones.

He never set foot in Rome.

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Where you there in rome? Were you on the the look out?? I didn't know people lived for over 2000 years.

The Early Church Fathers say differently. And I think what they saw has alot more value than a woman living in the 21st century who never even lived during the apostolic age..

Renton405 said:

I suggest you knock on every mueseum and tell them to take down all their art and statue. Be sure to email every one.

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So when christ instructed his followers to give up their worldly goods and follow him he was just really talking to hear his own voice right?

Out of curiosity, have YOU ever lent to the homeless?? fed the poor?

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Yes, I give food to a food bank monthly. And give money to other charities.

Morcova said:

So when christ instructed his followers to give up their worldly goods and follow him he was just really talking to hear his own voice right?

Yes, I give food to a food bank monthly. And give money to other charities.

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Most Catholic Churches are over 100 years old. So they are made on old architecture. It was alot cheaper to make a church back then than it is now.

The vatican is a glimpse into the apostolic age. And monastarys house more homeless people than you could even think of. The Catholic Church has helped the poor since the beginning 2000 years ago. And most charities that come to help the poor are from Christian charities. There are more Catholic homeless outreach programs than you can shake a stick at. They are always donating matresses, warm food, clothing and shelter.

Out of curiosity, how many athiests and communists donate out of atheism?

http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/GPG06/711080565/0/theme

Renton405 said:

Where you there in rome? Were you on the the look out?? I didn't know people lived for over 2000 years.

The Early Church Fathers say differently. And I think what they saw has alot more value than a woman living in the 21st century who never even lived during the apostolic age..

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There is no place in the New Testament where there is any hint or any record of any kind that Peter was in Rome. None.

NoDoubt said:

There is no place in the New Testament where there is any hint or any record of any kind that Peter was in Rome. None.

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Peter and Paul were both killed in Rome by Nero. And the bible dosen't say where Peter was killed. However he says.

There is, in the greeting at the end of the first epistle: “The Church here in Babylon, united with you by God’s election, sends you her greeting, and so does my son, Mark” (1 Pet. 5:13)

And of course nearly all the Early Church Fathers said Peter died in Rome. And their view holds alot more weight that some 21st century protestant opinion.

between the statements that “Peter came to Rome and died there” and that “Peter established his See at Rome and made the bishop of Rome his successor in the primacy.” A few examples must suffice, but they and other early references demonstrate that there can be no question that the universal—and very early—position (one hesitates to use the word “tradition,” since some people read that as “legend”) was that Peter certainly did end up in the capital of the Empire.


A Very Early Reference


Tertullian, in The Demurrer Against the Heretics (A.D. 200), noted of Rome, “How happy is that church . . . where Peter endured a passion like that of the Lord, where Paul was crowned in a death like John’s [referring to John the Baptist, both he and Paul being beheaded].” Fundamentalists admit Paul died in Rome, so the implication from Tertullian is that Peter also must have been there. It was commonly accepted, from the very first, that both Peter and Paul were martyred at Rome, probably in the Neronian persecution in the 60s.

In the same book, Tertullian wrote that “this is the way in which the apostolic churches transmit their lists: like the church of the Smyrnaeans, which records that Polycarp was placed there by John; like the church of the Romans, where Clement was ordained by Peter.” This Clement, known as Clement of Rome, later would be the fourth pope. (Note that Tertullian didn’t say Peter consecrated Clement as pope, which would have been impossible since a pope doesn’t consecrate his own successor; he merely ordained Clement as priest.) Clement wrote his Letter to the Corinthians perhaps before the year 70, just a few years after Peter and Paul were killed; in it he made reference to Peter ending his life where Paul ended his.

In his Letter to the Romans (A.D. 110), Ignatius of Antioch remarked that he could not command the Roman Christians the way Peter and Paul once did, such a comment making sense only if Peter had been a leader, if not the leader, of the church in Rome.

Irenaeus, in Against Heresies (A.D. 190), said that Matthew wrote his Gospel “while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church.” A few lines later he notes that Linus was named as Peter’s successor, that is, the second pope, and that next in line were Anacletus (also known as Cletus), and then Clement of Rome.

TeddyKGB said:

Americans are indoctrinated into capitalism at a young age. We are told that the world works best when we're out mostly for ourselves. That doesn't make wealth-hoarding right, but it's certainly a reasonable explanation. One that the Vatican can't appeal to.

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That is because we are not a Christian nation. It is the Christians themselves who can make a difference.

Morcova said:

I have a feeling the below child would prefer food to art. So no... it's not for the benefit of everyone.

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What have you done for him?

Renton405 said:

By the way. The Catholic Church is one of the biggest organizations that house and feed the homeless. Read on the St. Vincents fund. Nearly every Basillica and Cathedral has a food shelf and shelter for the homeless. And don't forget how many monastarys hid and sheltered the Jews in WWII..

have atheists ever done these things?

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Of course "atheists have done these things". Churches have undoubtedly done a lot of good work to shelter the homeless, but you'd be wrong to suggest that all homeless shelters and food programs are faith based. Here's a tiny tiny sample of shelters across the country which are not affiliated with any religion or church:

American Family Housing in San Bernardino County, CA
Rosie's Place for homeless women in Boston
People Serving People in Minneapolis
Atlanta Children's Shelter ... in Atlanta, of course
Crossroads in Oakland, CA (this one is green ... very cool)
Emmaus Inc. in Boston
Homeward Bound in Grand Junction, CO
Stockton Shelter for the Homeless in Stockton, CA
Twin Oaks Shelter for the Homeless in Delavan, WI

Renton405 said:

Out of curiosity, how many athiests and communists donate out of atheism?

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Your a tad confused, I don't do things "out of atheism" anymore than you do things out of your disbelieve in Shiva.


Would you be happier if I stopped giving to charities?

Avatar said:

What have you done for him?

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I give to charities, what have you done for him?

Morcova said:

I give to charities, what have you done for him?

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Nothing. But I'm not the one standing in Judgement of the Catholic church because they hang on to their paintings. You, however, suggest that while people are starving others shouldn't hang on to unnecessary wealth. You obviously don't practice what you preach, however. How much do you give to your Internet sevice provider? Enough to sponsor a child, maybe two, I'd wager.

I don't even get paid right now and I've given to charities, and gone on those "walk/run for *insert world problem here*, done food drives, helped raise money for the poor, and cooked food for the poor. Hell, when my friend was homeless, I bought him Subway whenever I had the money, I don't get much money and when I do get it, it's because I worked for it. that and Subway is f'in expensive, but so delicious....

And seriously Avatar, are you so naive that you think that your beloved Church's wealth is all made up of art? The Catholic Church is the biggest land owner in the world, and I won't even go into the money they're sitting on...

I guess you could always look at some articles.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,833509,00.html


From a CNN transcript, found here:

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0504/05/acd.01.html

RUDI BAKHTIAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's less than half a square mile and yet it's a nation unto itself. The Vatican, rich in centuries of priceless art and architecture. The Sistine Chapel, it's domed ceiling painted by Michelangelo. St. Peter's Basilica with a tomb of Christ's apostle Peter below the papal altar. The Pieta, the Vatican library, one of the world's richest repositories of ancient manuscripts. Put your arms around these priceless treasures and guess, what's the Vatican really worth?

JOHN ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: People have these notions that there are vast islands of wealth here. I mean, the truth is, the Vatican's a pretty lean and mean operation.

BAKHTIAR: Let's take a look at some of the numbers. The annual operating budget for the Vatican, $260 million. Property holdings of the Holy See, about $770 million. Add to that 18,000 pieces of art by the likes of Michelangelo, Raphael, Dante, Homer -- so what's the grand total? A whole lot less than you would expect. Yes, say the experts, the Vatican does have tremendous artistic wealth, but the Vatican insists the precious artwork and real estate it possesses are held in trust for humanity. What does that mean? St. Peter's Basilica is valued at slightly more than $1.

ALLEN: Interestingly, the Vatican lists all of that stuff on its book at one euro, in terms of value. And that's because, from their point of view, it can never be sold. It can never be borrowed against. Therefore, it produces no revenue for them.

BAKHTIAR: We tried contacting Christie's and Sotheby's to inquire, hypothetically, about the fair market value of some of the Vatican's treasures, but we didn't have much luck. Nor did CNN's Vatican analyst John Allen when he tried to attach a price tag to some of these assets.

ALLEN: I once interviewed an Italian contractor to ask him, if you were to build St. Peter's Basilica today, how much would it cost you to put together? And he started trying to do the research to answer my question and called me back and said, can't be done. Nobody would build this building. By today's standards the cost would be so astronomic that it is simply impossible to calculate.

BAKHTIAR: At various times the Vatican has reportedly faced calls that it sell off its treasures to finance its operations or help the poor. According to Allen, it's the Vatican's fundamental law these precious assets can never be sold.

Rudi Bakhtiar, CNN, New York.


This was taken from a less trusting source:

"The Vatican has large investments with the Rothschilds of Britain, France and America, with the Hambros Bank, with the Credit Suisse in London and Zurich. In the United States it has large investments with the Morgan Bank, the Chase-Manhattan Bank, the First National Bank of New York, the Bankers Trust Company, and others. The Vatican has billions of shares in the most powerful international corporations such as Gulf Oil, Shell, General Motors, Bethlehem Steel, General Electric, International Business Machines, T.W.A., etc. At a conservative estimate, these amount to more than 500 million dollars in the U.S.A. alone.

"In a statement published in connection with a bond prospectus, the Boston archdiocese listed its assets at Six Hundred and Thirty-five Million ($635,891,004), which is 9.9 times its liabilities. This leaves a net worth of Five Hundred and Seventy-one million dollars ($571,704,953). It is not difficult to discover the truly astonishing wealth of the church, once we add the riches of the twenty-eight archdioceses and 122 dioceses of the U.S.A., some of which are even wealthier than that of Boston.

"Some idea of the real estate and other forms of wealth controlled by the Catholic church may be gathered by the remark of a member of the New York Catholic Conference, namely 'that his church probably ranks second only to the United States Government in total annual purchase.' Another statement, made by a nationally syndicated Catholic priest, perhaps is even more telling. 'The Catholic church,' he said, 'must be the biggest corporation in the United States. We have a branch office in every neighborhood. Our assets and real estate holdings must exceed those of Standard Oil, A.T.&T., and U.S. Steel combined. And our roster of dues-paying members must be second only to the tax rolls of the United States Government.'

"The Catholic church, once all her assets have been put together, is the most formidable stockbroker in the world. The Vatican, independently of each successive pope, has been increasingly orientated towards the U.S. The Wall Street Journal said that the Vatican's financial deals in the U.S. alone were so big that very often it sold or bought gold in lots of a million or more dollars at one time.

"The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion dollars. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.

"The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. She is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twentieth century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of dollars."

And I think back about how the pope, the wealthiest man on this planet, walked up to that poor little Italian man lying in that rubble, put his hand on his head, and said, "Bless you," and then walked away and just left him there. That has got to be the height of hypocrisy. And then Sen. Kennedy, the pope's boy over in the United States makes the big pitch to the U.S. people to foot the bill to repair that devastated village, right in the pope's backyard. What a set-up!

stan1980 said:

My ISP is essential tool for my work. It would be like asking a fisherman to sell his rod, so that he can feed someone starving.

I agree, i'm not perfect, and i live a fairly luxurious life, but i like to think my greed, prestige and materialistic goods will never get to the heights of some establishments.

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throwing rocks in glass houses?


So that means, because some building or mueseum has more accumilation than you do, then you can continue going on and living in greed because you are "not as bad as they are"..

The Catholic Church has been to many missionary works in Africa to help the poor. Maybe you should use that wealth of yours and goto Africa on a missions trip?

American Family Housing in San Bernardino County, CA
Rosie's Place for homeless women in Boston
People Serving People in Minneapolis
Atlanta Children's Shelter ... in Atlanta, of course
Crossroads in Oakland, CA (this one is green ... very cool)
Emmaus Inc. in Boston
Homeward Bound in Grand Junction, CO
Stockton Shelter for the Homeless in Stockton, CA
Twin Oaks Shelter for the Homeless in Delavan, WI

Thats very nice, but none of those are affiliated with atheism or secularism either. In fact I bet many of those places direct the homeless to churches and AA for extra help also.

Either way lets make a comparison

• Salvation Army (27)
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• World Vision International@
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• Lutheran World Relief
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  www.lwr.org
• Tearfund
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• Christian Reformed World Relief Committee (CRWRC)
  Relief, development, and educational ministry supported by the Christian Reformed Church in North America.
  www.crwrc.org
• Operation Blessing International (2)
  dir.yahoo.com/.../Charities/Operation_Blessing_International
• International Orthodox Christian Charities
  Coordinating international relief.
  www.iocc.org
• World Concern
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  www.worldconcern.org
• Mercy Ships
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  www.mercyships.org
• World Relief
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  www.worldrelief.org
• National Benevolent Association
  Provide social and health services to meet physical, emotional, mental and spiritual needs.
  www.nbacares.org
• Educational Concerns for Hunger Organization
  Offers information about tropical agriculture, seeds, and training to missionaries, and development workers worldwide.
  www.echonet.org
• MEDAIR
  Christian relief and non-governmental organization aims for providing life-saving rehabilitation in disasters, crises, and conflict areas.
  www.medair.org
• Pura Vida Coffee
  Sells hand-roasted, gourmet coffees in a variety of blends and flavors. All net proceeds benefit at-risk children in coffee-growing regions of the world.
  www.puravidacoffee.com
• Samaritan's Purse (2)
  dir.yahoo.com/.../Charities/Samaritan_s_Purse
• Marine Reach International
  Interdenominational Christian organization providing medical care and facilities via ship, truck, and other means.
  www.marinereach.com
• Maranatha Volunteers International
  Constructs churches, schools, orphanages, clinics, housing and other structures in areas of great need around the world.
  www.maranatha.org
• Christian Relief Services
  Charitable organization providing humanitarian relief in the United States and around the world.
  www.christianrelief.org

• Church Urban Fund
  A charity making grants to Church linked projects in England's urban priority areas.
  www.cuf.org.uk
• Kingdom Ventures
  Philanthropic venture capital organization supporting emerging Christian ministries.
  www.kingdomventures.org
• Church Action on Poverty
  National charity seeking to eradicate poverty in the U.K. Publishes educational materials, undertakes research, and runs events across the country.
  www.church-poverty.org.uk
• Fellowship of Associates of Medical Evangelism [FAME]
  Dedicated to bringing medical help and hope to least reached people in underdeveloped nations.
  www.fameworld.org
• Helps International
  Nonprofit, non-denominational Christian organization providing assistance with medical care, education, housing, agriculture and economic development in rural Guatemala.
  www.helpsintl.org
• Compassion Canada
  Features information on the evangelical Christian charity, including the opportunity to sponsor a child in the developing world.
  www.compassion.ca
• Christian Appalachian Project
  Volunteer inter-denominational service helping people in the Appalachians.
  www.chrisapp.org
• Bright Hope International
  Working through local churches in 42 countries to provide food, jobs and aid to the needy.
  www.brighthope.org
• India Partners
  Nonprofit organization that works with charities in India.
  www.indiapartners.org
• Society of St. Vincent de Paul@
  dir.yahoo.com/.../Charities/Society_of_St__Vincent_de_Paul
• Franciscan Sisters of Christian Charity
  Dedicated to fulfilling a variety of roles in Catholic education, health care, and community services. The Franciscan Sisters of Christian Charity prioritizes the needs of the poor while ministering in Arizona, Hawaii, Illinois, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, Ohio, and Wisconsin.
  www.fscc-calledtobe.org
• Honduras Outreach
  Ecumenical Christian ministry partnership to improve quality life in Agalta Valley, Honduras.
  www.hoi.org
• Food for the Hungry International (FHI)
  Global Christian organization providing resources and humanitarian assistance to improve the lives of children and their families.
  www.fhi.net
• ELCA World Hunger
  The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America's (ELCA) organization which seeks to support people who live with chronic hunger and poverty through relief, development, education, and advocacy.
  www.elca.org/hunger
• Rivers of the World
  Exploration and development group targeting the world's most remote rivers. Projects focus on health, education, agriculture, microeconomic development, and evangelism.
  www.row.org
• Kingscare
  Meeting practical needs with the love of God in developing countries through self help, medical, educational and training projects.
  www.kingscare.org
• Mission Noah
  Dedicated to humanitarian aid throughout the world.
  www.missionnoah.org
• Heal the Nations
  Christian nonprofit organization dedicated to facilitating community health development for needy people in remote areas of the world.
  www.healthenations.com
• CitiHope International
  Christian relief and development agency.
  www.citihope.org
• His Kids, Too
  Christian nonprofit international humanitarian aide organization providing aide to orphans and widows in several countries, including Ukraine, Russia, and Albania.
  www.hiskidstoo.org

• Jericho Road, Inc.
  Contacting nonprofit, social service organizations regarding volunteer opportunities.
  www.jericho.org
• Faith in Practice
  A community of volunteers who work to improve the physical, spiritual and economic conditions of the poor in Central America.
  www.faithinpractice.org
• World Hope International
  Christian relief seeking to bring lasting hope through self sufficiency to the poorest people on earth.
  www.worldhope.net
• Hope Now
  Helps people worldwide through prayer and donations.
  www.hopenow.org.uk
• Good News Family Care
  Seeking a return to traditional family values and offerering support, counselling, and temporary accommodation to families in distress.
  www.gnfc.org.uk
• Fred Jordan Missions
  Ministry to the homeless, offering tools and help for people living on the streets. Funded by donations from individuals, churches, and corporations, Fred Jordan Missions reaches out to the less fortunate by providing love, support, food, and clothing throughout Los Angeles and the world.
  www.fjm.org