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How does one come to believe something?

Wayne R.

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Atheists live in faith of what they have been taught. Have they experienced the Big Bang? Not hardly. Do they have an explanation for it's cause or the parameters of it? Not a clue! Do they even ask why they believe what they assume to be true. No, they just accept it. What was the force that collapsed the pre-existant universe they believe became so infinitesimally small it couldn't be measured? “No clue” is the only answer you'll hear. What was the force that over came the collapsing force and caused expansion at 17 trillion degrees? “No clue” again. Since time and space are an integral part of the universe and birthed at that moment, what “force” birthed them? “No clue.” Why did the universe develop in absolute consistency in every direction, and according to order rather than chaos? “No clue.” What caused the vibration that exists as a uniform foundation of all particles as the superheated plasma of the universe began to cool? “No clue.” What created light photons and the energy that propels them at the speed that stops time and causes mass to increase to infinite? “No clue.” Why is only 4% of the universe directly detectable, the remaining 73% being “dark matter” and 23% “dark energy”, not even detectable except for it's effect on the knowable 4%? “No clue.” Why is the “universe” of quantum mechanics impossible to understand and diametrically opposed to the laws of physics? “No clue.” What do they call the forces at work, the developer of consistency? “Anything but God.” Gen 1:1-3 “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was (made to become in Hebrew) formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep (they had no word for “plasma”), and the Spirit of God was moving (“brooding”, vibrating) over the surface of the waters (liquid in Hebrew). Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.”

Until the antitheists can prove their nonsense reasoning true, which is impossible, this is the best explanation we have, and it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

God proves Himself in more ways than the blind will ever see. How can the color technique of Picasso be understood by the self-blindfolded?
 
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Davian

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Welcome to CF!
Atheists live in faith of what they have been taught.
No, atheism is a theological position on the existence of deities. It is not a truth statement, and requires no faith.
It would appear that you have mistakenly confused "atheist" with "astrophysicist". Get thee to a dictionary.
“Anything but God.”
Or any other characters in books that by all objective measures appear to be fictional. No universe-creating pixies, for instance.
Is this supposed to be of any scientific significance?
Until the antitheists
Antitheists and atheists are not necessarily the same thing.
can prove
Science does not "prove" anything.
their nonsense reasoning true,
Does most of mainstream science have to wrong for your beliefs to be true?
which is impossible,
Good for you then. Best to put those goalposts where no one can reach them.
this is the best explanation we have, and it doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.
Indeed. "God" really does not explain anything.
God proves Himself in more ways than the blind will ever see.
Just not in any way that you can demonstrate.
How can the color technique of Picasso be understood by the self-blindfolded?
How can I understand what you have only imagined?
 
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lumberjohn

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All I'm sayiing is that you need some common, objective standards by which to evaluate competing claims to the truth. Science has developed such standards, and they have been remarkably effective in explaining the universe we live in. Religions have developed no such standards.

The scientific method was not commonly employed until the late 1800s. Before that, there was no consistent way to test claims about the nature of the universe. There were millions of competing claims with no agreed upon method to distinguish between them. Religion was commonly accepted as the source of reliable explanations of natural phenomena, and where people’s religions reached different conclusions, there was little hope of resolution. Further progress on the issue stood at a standstill.

Science and the methodology it employs changed all that. It allowed for unprecedented advancement in many areas, including engineering and medicine. Science’s track record since that time in uncovering the nature of the universe is light years ahead of any competitor. If we were to go about comparing religion to science from a standpoint of intellectual honesty, we would determine what kind of universe we would expect to live in if theism were true; then we would do the same for naturalism; and finally we would compare these two expectations to the universe we observe. But when we do this, we find the theist models to fail again and again.

There are some questions that have, to date, eluded the ability of science to answer. Science works on the basis of evaluating evidence and conducting tests, and in some areas such as the origin of life or the universe, that evidence is short supply. But that doesn't mean the process is somehow invalid. Nor does it justify defaulting to "God did it" as an explanation, on the false assumption that what we know now is all we’ll ever know – that the “as yet unexplained” should be treated as “forever unexplainable” and that if no satisfying natural explanation is currently at hand, such an explanation is impossible.

The best approach when confronted with a scientific question for which no clear scientific consensus has emerged is simply to acknowledge that we don’t know the answer yet. As history has demonstrated again and again, science will eventually plug the gaps in our knowledge. It is reasonable to wait for that to happen rather than inject an unnecessary and unjustified hypothesis (God) out of a desire for immediate certainty.

Religion can be thought of as failed science. Despite thousands of years of religious explanations, none could hold a candle to those that developed once science took the wheel. Science came along and demonstrated how inadequate religion was at doing the primary job it had carved out for itself – explaining the natural world. This is why naturalism has pulled so far ahead of theism in the race to accurately model the universe.

You seem to be suggesting that science represents just another worldview, no better or worse than explaining reality than any other. If so, please identify those methods other than the scientific method that are more reliable. While science has yielded millions of significant insights into the nature of the world, religion has yielded exactly none. That is why when religion and science yield different answers to the same question, you are always justified going with science.
 
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lumberjohn

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Wow. You have really misrepresented the state of science across the board. I doubt you'll find many scientists responding to those questions with "No clue." Hypotheses have been proposed for many of your questions and those hypotheses are constantly being tested and re-tested. Some are deemed more plausible than others. Confidence is assigned accordingly. That is how science works. Saying that no consensus has emerged on a question is very different from saying scientists have "no clue." As I've previously explained, we are justified in leaving these issues to science until a better methodology comes along. If you have a better one, then please provide your answers to each of the questions you have raised to the same level of detail as a scientific hypothesis. For reasons I've previously explained, "God did it" doesn't count.
 
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RSLancastr

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Hi RSL, I think you are brave to admit your non-belief on the forum.

Not brave at all, but thanks for saying so. I have ALWAYS enjoyed a respectful discussion on a given topic with those who believe differently than I do on that topic.

I imagine that you attend the First Baptist church in order to please your wife.

That's the obvious guess, but it's not quite right. Read the Opening Post in my thread titled "RSLancastr, a church-attending, Bible-reading Agnostic" for the story.

I'm sure you enjoy some aspects of the church, which is enriching.

I certainly do, including:

  1. Singing in the choir.
  2. Socializing with the many friends we have made there (just last Sunday evening, we attended a concert at a local Episcopal church with some dear friends from our church).
  3. Inserting a non-believer's perspective into discussions, such as those in our Sunday School class and the Men's Bible Study group.

Some Christians argue that Church is not a Social Club - I would argue different. Church is there for the whole community - Christians, Agnostics, Unbelievers, believers of other faiths.
H

Or, as my Susan puts it, "How can we (Christians) fulfill The Great Commission if, we only associate with other Christians?"

How to include the community without changing the Church from a Christian place of worship into a secular community centre dominated and run by the community and not the Church must be a balancing act at times.

Apparently so! Our church is pretty good at it, largely due to the "tone" set by our Senior Pastor.

You have chosen to associate yourself as a member of the Church, RSL.

Actually, I am only a member of the congregation, not of the Church, or even of the church, which would require me to make an Affirmation of Faith, something I cannot and will not do.

By singing in the choir, you are choosing to believe.

No more than my singing the Lennon/McCartney song "Michelle" would be my choosing to believe that I was actually in love with a woman named Michelle.

You are addressing God, you are singing to Jesus in the songs.

Again, no more than I am singing to the fictional Michelle in the above example.

You are undoubtedly inviting the Holy Spirit into your life.

I can't speak to that.

But you haven't seen the evidence of God's existence, from what you've written. I wonder if your church is a hindrance to you reaching faith.

How so?

-RSL
 
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BukiRob

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LOL No you dont... your's is not a head problem... its a heart problem.

Either Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ) rose from the dead or he didn't. There is 0 question that he lived. He made extraordinary claims and lived from all accounts an extraordinary life....

If he rose (He did) then he is GD and everything in scripture is truth. If he didn't, its all fables and stories and a waste of time.

Science is fallible because our understanding of our own existence and the environment around us is incomplete and that is just a plain fact. As our tools and technology improves all we find are more complex difficult questions. It is my firm belief we will NEVER have all the answers. Man does not have the mind of Gd and it is beyond our grasp or ability to full know.

You are right that "religion" has yield no facts about the natural world around us... just as science has yield NO FACTS about the realm of the spiritual. You might as well try to plow a field with a hammer.... I suspect you wont get very far with that.

Your understanding of things that are spiritual are woefully flawed. I'm not versed well enough in the various world religions to speak on their take on our reason for existence. I am however well versed in the bible and have studied it for many, many years. On that I can speak with some modicum of understanding. How is it that prophets speaking about the Messiah and how he would be killed happened exactly how Yeshua was killed by the Romans? How is it that the Jewish Prophet in the book of Isaiah names King Cyrus by NAME as the man who would allow the Jews to return to Jerusalem 150 years before Cyrus birth?

Science is utterly worthless when asking question's "What is the meaning of life?" "Why am I here?" "Why does mathematics work, anyway?" "If the universe had a beginning, who created it?" "Why are the physical constants in the universe so finely tuned to allow the possibility of complex life forms?" "Why do humans have a moral sense?" "What happens after we die?"

Atheists make the deeply flawed mistake of then arguing that since science can not address these question at all, that therefore there must be no purpose in our being here. By using the wrong tool to ask a philosophical question you come away with an inherently flawed answer just as you stated.

I do find it interesting and noteworthy that if one examines the ORDER in which Genesis gives account of creation it would happen exactly in the order in which one would expect it to occur scientifically. What are the odds that ancient man would know this?

Perhaps more importantly, scripture deals with mankind and his relationship with his fellow man and mankind's relationship with its creator.

Lastly, you will find that much of the field of study of molecular genetics is filled with both highly respected scientist who are believers but more importantly a significant absence of atheists as a percentage of the population of scientist in that particular discipline. The reason is quite simple... evolution does not conform at all in that particular field of research and study. Most researchers out rightly reject Darwinist views on evolution simply because it can not be supported at all based upon our current understanding at the molecular level.

Evolution states that things go from simple to complex... yet the deeper we look at the molecular level we see incredible complexity much of which we still do not understand. If evolution were in fact how things happened then random mutations in DNA would likely produce positive results. To date, we have no evidence at all that supports such a view and in fact what we do have evidence of is that random mutation of DNA every single time produces a highly negative result.

Of course none of this is going to change your world view as the truth is that I have never met a single person that rejects Gd on a rational, logical reasoned research of the evidence. People reject Gd because of the implications... namely that if Gd does exist then I exist as a by product of his creation and his plan. That then means I have to do something about that fact.... its far easier to simply deny he exists and spray justifications around that sound good but actually hold no water upon closer examination.

There is literately hundreds of books out there by people who have started out to prove Gd doesn't exist and through an honest, open, through examination came to the conclusion they were wrong.
 
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People come to believe things for many reasons, many being emotional or experiential.
Christians believe in God because God has revealed Himself to them. Nobody can truly have faith without God's hand involved because faith is a gift from God.

Yes but what is God?
A concept or a thing-both views are equally valid.
 
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Joshua260

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Thanks for your suggestion. I'm not a big fan of your solution though because we would seem to be regressing (than progressing) in our understanding of why people (including Christians) come to believe in things.

So far, our working p1 is:
" 1. People come to believe something by evaluating evidence, logical arguments, emotions, or properly basic beliefs."

I'd rather you try to add more to the list if you can. I bet we could probably group many of them into what we've said already.
 
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Joshua260

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Nope, not correct. At a minimum, P3 should end with "at least one of the methods listed in p1", not "everything listed in p1".

Good point! I'll try to remember that if I write it again.
 
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Yes, it's methodological naturalism....into which arena the atheist demands the theist discuss religion. Keep on freethinking...
 
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Joshua260

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Thanks for your response. I think my p1 takes your concern into account though with the inclusion of a "properly basic belief". That properly basic belief could be argued to have originated from God...but I'm not pressing that point in this thread.
 
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rstrats

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Davian,


re: "I would concur, belief is not a conscious action."



Absolutely true. The only conscious action that could be involved would be in the doing of what ever the newly realized belief might require.
 
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Joshua260

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So many good responses and I appreciate the good discussions.

I think the best version of the argument in my OP so far is:

1. People come to believe something by evaluating evidence, logical arguments, emotions, or properly basic beliefs.
2. People who are Christians believe that God exists.
3. Therefore, people who are Christians came to believe that God exists by (at least one of the things listed in p1).

And several of the atheists in this thread admitted that Christians do have evidence (such as testimonies and other documentation) to support their belief in Christianity. I appreciate your honest answers on that. I don't intend to go any further and go into the evidence in this thread since that discussion would be more properly take place in the Exploring Christianity forum. Thanks for your participation. I'll leave this thread open for you if your care to continue on.
 
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Wayne R.

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Since that thread is still available, why don't you link or quote some of these atheists who said you "only come to believe something based upon evidence?"

It would be helpful to see what they said exactly and the context they said it in.



“No clue” is certainly the most truthful statement. There are no credible hypotheses to define the issues I pointed out, and certainly nothing that disproves “God”, especially when considering the fact that “God” is the very name many use in reference to those inconceivable events. Even atheists accept the events by faith in the reports of others, and therefore cannot deny there is a cause, clueless as to the parameters of that cause as they may be. “God is the cause” is certainly a viable and appropriate declaration. Therefore, denying the cause is “God” is futile and amounts to “the cause didn't cause it”. Now if you were to ask what the essence of “God” is, what the “parameters” of God might be, most would admit they don't have a clue, yet as the existence of the universe as understood in the Big Bang theory evidences the fact that a cause exists, denial of the cause amounts to nonsense. "God" as term avoided by atheists and dispised by antitheists, yet "Cause" can be denied by neither, and certainly not disproved. They're arguments amount to semantics.
 
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lumberjohn

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LOL No you dont... your's is not a head problem... its a heart problem.

Either Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus Christ) rose from the dead or he didn't. There is 0 question that he lived.

I wouldn't say there is 0 question that any particular person from antiquity lived. Our ancient sources aren't reliable enough for that type of certainty. They are especially bad when it comes to Jesus. The evidence of even his existence is pretty poor. I'd say there's about a 60% chance there was a historical Jesus whose life corresponds in any significant way with the Gospel accounts. There is a significant amount of debate on this question by critical scholars. Read up.
 
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lumberjohn

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He made extraordinary claims and lived from all accounts an extraordinary life....

If he rose (He did) then he is GD and everything in scripture is truth. If he didn't, its all fables and stories and a waste of time.

He certainly did make extraordinary claims. That is why we need extremely reliable evidence to support them. What would it take for you to believe that someone rose from the dead fifty years ago? Anonymous hearsay accounts written yesterday? This type of reliable evidence is just what we don't have for Jesus' resurrection. By any reasonable consistent standard of evidence, we should not believe it. So by your analysis, it is all a waste of time.
 
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lumberjohn

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Of course science is fallible. No one has argued otherwise. Bur religion isn't any better at finding the right answers. In fact, history has proven it to be far, far worse.

How do you define the "realm of the spiritual"? We have no good reasons to believe such a thing even exists. It is like arguing over how many angels can dance on the head of a pin! First, prove there are angels and then we can have a discussion.
 
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Chany

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I still think you do not understand: libraries of books and essays have been written on the subject of how we believe and what exactly counts as knowledge. To come up with a list of four things without leaving it open means the argument is easily open to a false premise. There are multiple other reasons that factor into belief. Here's some off the top of my head:

1) Intuition- These are starting points that people often base their intial starting points off of. Sometimes, people actually use them for the basis of their belief, whether they know it or not. Several even argue that intuition has an important role in rationally justified beliefs.

2) The Answer of Others- The fact that other people, particular people who are well trained and intelligent, might give the same answer or a different one factors into one's belief. I am actually studying the epistemology, ethics, and politics of peer disagreement right now.

And I cannot emphasize this one enough:

3) Psychological and cognitive biases. These happen to everyone, which is why special care must be taken to ensure we do not easily fall into them. However, many times these can become so strong that they account for the reason why people hold onto a certain belief while others do not.

Also, I hope you do quote and link this thread in any subsequent threads you make, as to avoid the problems this thread had.

P.S. I find it sad and unfortunate that you would leave this thread. In between the usual atheist v. theist bickering, it was good to talk about actual epistemology in a philosophical context. I was actually hoping more people would join in, not leave.
 
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