How does one become a Theistic Evolutionist?

LightSeaker · Sep 15, 2009

John 10:10 said:
You say when we study science, we must leave God out of this study. But if you are believer in God, He declares this in Psa 19:1-2,

The heavens are telling of the glory of God; and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands. Day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge.

Therefore, when anyone studies “the glory of God” and “the work of His hands,” one MUST include God in understanding His glory and His creation work.

What a wonderful piece of scripture that you shared. I know that I sure include God in understanding His Glory and His Creation work. And I know that many scientest do the same. What's so wonderful is our seeing the Glory of God's creative work in actual progress through the windows that Geology and Evolution gives us.

Many of the first scientists who began to study the wonders of the universe and life on earth were believers in God, many being devout Christians. They did not leave God out of understanding how we came to exist and how God sustains that which He created.

Really, it doesn’t matter what scientist know about God. They don't study God. They study what has created.

But science today somehow believes that it must be Godless in stating what it believes is fact, both present and past tense. This may be true when science delves into “some” of the wonders of God’s creation, such as nuclear fission as an atom splits apart. Man has been able to take this fact and design nuclear weapons and nuclear power plants. But saying that science “has determined” as fact that life evolved over time, with or without God, from one species to another to another to where it is today is nothing but a pseudo- science and a deception of what true God science is all about.

There's no such thing as "true God science". To comment on the rest of your paragraph, yes science HAS determined as fact the life evolved over time. So what? It's our job to see God with in His Creation...That's not the job of the scientist. Nor should it be their job.

.

John 10:10 · Sep 17, 2009

LightSeaker said:
There's no such thing as "true God science". To comment on the rest of your paragraph, yes science HAS determined as fact the life evolved over time. So what? It's our job to see God with in His Creation...That's not the job of the scientist. Nor should it be their job.

Science can look into the past via dead bones and fossil records and determine to some extent the kind of creatures God created in the past as the earth's physical/environmental conditions changed over the course of approximately 4.5 billion years, but science CANNOT say that it's determined fact that God's creatures evolved from the first living creature to the millions of resulting species that have lived on earth since the first fully formed life forms began to appear on earth during the Cambrian period some 540 million years ago. But there is no such thing as a science that says they understand "as fact" that life then truly evolved from species to species. This is the deception that Godless science has given to the world, even if you want to call it theistic evolution.

God has given us this final word concerning the work of His hands,

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ecclesiastes 3:11 [/FONT]He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

Tiberius · Sep 17, 2009

John 10:10 said:
Science can look into the past via dead bones and fossil records and determine to some extent the kind of creatures God created in the past as the earth's physical/environmental conditions changed over the course of approximately 4.5 billion years, but science CANNOT say that it's determined fact that God's creatures evolved from the first living creature to the millions of resulting species that have lived on earth since the first fully formed life forms began to appear on earth during the Cambrian period some 540 million years ago.

It can and it does. There is a ton of evidence to support this.

But there is no such thing as a science that says they understand "as fact" that life then truly evolved from species to species.

Yes there is. Creationists like to tell other that there isn't because they want to weaken science's position.

This is the deception that Godless science has given to the world, even if you want to call it theistic evolution.

it is not deception. If you like, I will show the evidence for evolution. But if I show you and you still disagree, you'll have to explain why it's all fake.

God has given us this final word concerning the work of His hands,

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ecclesiastes 3:11 [/FONT]He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

Why do you turn to a centuries old collection of religious texts in order to find out about God's work, when it's sitting right outside your door? You wanna learn about God, look at the thing he made firsthand, not through some book. The real world will give you a much better idea of what God did than any book.

gluadys · Sep 17, 2009

John 10:10 said:
since the first fully formed life forms began to appear on earth during the Cambrian period some 540 million years ago.

What in the world do you mean by this? Are you saying that thousands of bacterial, archeal, and eukaryotic species which existed 1 to 2 BILLION years before the Cambrian were not "fully formed". Why would you say such a thing.

If they weren't fully formed then, are they fully formed today? Some bacterial fossils are pretty much similar to today's bacteria.

And what of all the algae and Ediacaran fauna that lived 200 million years before the Cambrian? Why would you say they are not included among "fully formed" creatures?

Do creatures have to have shells to be "fully formed"?

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ecclesiastes 3:11 [/FONT]He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.

No one is claiming that evolution covers all of God's work from beginning to end. After all even the solar system did not come into existence until over 9 billion years after the beginning of the universe. But what evolution does cover, (about 3.5 billion years of the history of life on earth) it covers very well.

As Tiberius said, (and as scripture says) the best way to find out about God's creation is to look at God's creation.

John 10:10 · Sep 17, 2009

gluadys said:
What in the world do you mean by this? Are you saying that thousands of bacterial, archeal, and eukaryotic species which existed 1 to 2 BILLION years before the Cambrian were not "fully formed". Why would you say such a thing.

I'm saying that whatever life forms that God created before the Cambrian period, science CANNOT say to any degree of accuracy that they somehow evolved into the explosion of creatures that do show up first in the Cambrian period and the periods that follow. There is no validation of any experiment that can be done in a laboratory to show how this in fact does occur, thus validating how the scientific community determines FACTS or scientific truths/laws.

Man can go to a laboratory and look into structure of an atom, what it is comprised of, how it can break apart when fission occurs and what the new elements are, or how atoms can come together when fusion occurs. All of these events can be measured to a high degree of accuracy, and these scienific truths can actually be determined as FACT.

No so with life forms that God created which lived hundreds of millions of years in the past! All science can determine today is what lived in the past, not if they evolved from the first life form to all the resulting plant and animal species! Evolutionists, even theistic evolutionists, today somehow believe the ToE is now scientific fact that has been validated to a high degree of accuracy. This is the deception and the distortion of God science that I speak of.

Can plant and animal species better adapt themselves to their environment over time? Yes they can! Can minor changes in their physical attributes change over time due to food and climate? Yes they can! But science cannot determine to any high dergee of accuracy as FACT that plant and animal species "have evolved by dramatic changes to the DNA of each species," resulting in the explosion of new plant and animal species over millions of years. This is beyond the purview of what God science can determine as FACT, and is best left to what God has revealed in the Genesis Scriptures:

All plant, animal and human species were created by God "after their own kind."

Mallon · Sep 17, 2009

John 10:10 said:
Can plant and animal species better adapt themselves to their environment over time? Yes they can! Can minor changes in their physical attributes change over time due to food and climate? Yes they can! But science cannot determine to any high dergee of accuracy as FACT that plant and animal species "have evolved by dramatic changes to the DNA of each species," resulting in the explosion of new plant and animal species over millions of years. This is beyond the purview of what God science can determine as FACT, and is best left to what God has revealed in the Genesis Scriptures:

All plant, animal and human species were created by God "after their own kind."

I agree with what you're saying about the evolution of the first life forms into modern species as not being fact. It is instead an unrefuted inference based on numerous independent lines of evidence. In fact, much science is conducted in this way, so I'm not sure why you're picking on evolution specifically. I think I linked you to this essay before, but you evidently didn't read it, so here it is again:
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2002/PSCF6-02Miller2.pdf

P.S. Concordism is sooo 400 years ago.

gluadys · Sep 17, 2009

John 10:10 said:
I'm saying that whatever life forms that God created before the Cambrian period, science CANNOT say to any degree of accuracy that they somehow evolved into the explosion of creatures that do show up first in the Cambrian period and the periods that follow. There is no validation of any experiment that can be done in a laboratory to show how this in fact does occur, thus validating how the scientific community determines FACTS or scientific truths/laws.

Man can go to a laboratory and look into structure of an atom, what it is comprised of, how it can break apart when fission occurs and what the new elements are, or how atoms can come together when fusion occurs. All of these events can be measured to a high degree of accuracy, and these scienific truths can actually be determined as FACT.

No so with life forms that God created which lived hundreds of millions of years in the past! All science can determine today is what lived in the past, not if they evolved from the first life form to all the resulting plant and animal species! Evolutionists, even theistic evolutionists, today somehow believe the ToE is now scientific fact that has been validated to a high degree of accuracy. This is the deception and the distortion of God science that I speak of.

Can plant and animal species better adapt themselves to their environment over time? Yes they can! Can minor changes in their physical attributes change over time due to food and climate? Yes they can! But science cannot determine to any high dergee of accuracy as FACT that plant and animal species "have evolved by dramatic changes to the DNA of each species," resulting in the explosion of new plant and animal species over millions of years. This is beyond the purview of what God science can determine as FACT, and is best left to what God has revealed in the Genesis Scriptures:

All plant, animal and human species were created by God "after their own kind."

Do you think that experimentation with modern bacteria or algae has no relevance to how their ancestors lived? If only minor changes have occurred in them over billions of years, why would we not be able to use them as proxies for exploring the life of similar species in Pre-Cambrian times?

Would you consider a change from a unicellular to a multicellular form to be a minor or a major change to the physical attributes of a species?

Are you aware that such a change has been observed experimentally--in a laboratory--with modern algae? If it can happen in a laboratory today, why not 700 million years ago in the ocean under similar circumstances?

It seems to me that in order to maintain your belief that science cannot say anything accurate about evolution, you must keep yourself ignorant of the evidence that it has.

Also your response does not answer the question as to why you represent pre-Cambrian species as not "fully-formed".

And as to your last phrase, I would add to it that all archeal, bacterial, algal, amoeboid, flagellate, ciliate, fungal and other types of species were also created by God "after their own kind." Plant, animal and human after all, only account for a small fraction of all living things both in mass and in diversity. And human life is part of animal life.

John 10:10 · Sep 17, 2009

Mallon said:
I agree with what you're saying about the evolution of the first life forms into modern species as not being fact. It is instead an unrefuted inference based on numerous independent lines of evidence. In fact, much science is conducted in this way, so I'm not sure why you're picking on evolution specifically.

On this we can agree, that "the evolution of the first life forms into modern species as not being fact." The problem comes when evolutionists do equate it as scientific fact, on par with other scientific facts that can be validated to a high degree of accuracy. This is why I pick on evolution specifically.

Mallon · Sep 17, 2009

John 10:10 said:
On this we can agree, that "the evolution of the first life forms into modern species as not being fact." The problem comes when evolutionists do equate it as scientific fact, on par with other scientific facts that can be validated to a high degree of accuracy. This is why I pick on evolution specifically.

Science isn't in the business of "validating facts". Facts don't need to be validated -- they are given and can be observed in real time. When you observe that the sky is blue (a fact), you are not doing science.
Science deals with constructing and testing hypotheses (e.g., WHY is the sky blue?) -- and when those hypotheses are validated, they do not become fact. Even if they are validated thousands of times over, they do not become fact. They become theory. And that is the ultimate goal of science: to develop working theories, of which evolution is one.

John 10:10 · Sep 17, 2009

gluadys said:
It seems to me that in order to maintain your belief that science cannot say anything accurate about evolution, you must keep yourself ignorant of the evidence that it has.

Science can postulate all it wants about how it thinks plants and animals may have evolved from species to species over millions of years, but it CANNOT present the experiments that can be run today or the minute changes that can be observed over the span of a few decades as validation to a high degree of accuracy that species actually do evolve to other species if given enough time.

gluadys said:
Also your response does not answer the question as to why you represent pre-Cambrian species as not "fully-formed".

Read my lips! I believe all plant and animal life forms God created before or after the Cambrian period were created "fully-formed," with the God given ability to procreate after their own kind.

John 10:10 · Sep 17, 2009

Mallon said:
Science isn't in the business of "validating facts". Facts don't need to be validated -- they are given and can be observed in real time. When you observe that the sky is blue (a fact), you are not doing science.
Science deals with constructing and testing hypotheses (e.g., WHY is the sky blue?) -- and when those hypotheses are validated, they do not become fact. Even if they are validated thousands of times over, they do not become fact. They become theory. And that is the ultimate goal of science: to develop working theories, of which evolution is one.

On this point we will just have to disagree. I do believe that when science constructs and tests a hypothesis, and cause/affects are validated to a high degree of accuracy, then we can know this science as FACT or scientific truths/laws. If we can't validate as FACT that certain causes result in certain affects, then scientists go back to the drawing board and propose other theories that maybe can be validated.

As much as evolutionists want to believe and give their life to the study of a science that says the first life form evolved to all the other species, it can never be validated to a high degree of accuracy as most other scientific fatcs/truths are determined.

gluadys · Sep 18, 2009

John 10:10 said:
Science can postulate all it wants about how it thinks plants and animals may have evolved from species to species over millions of years, but it CANNOT present the experiments that can be run today or the minute changes that can be observed over the span of a few decades as validation to a high degree of accuracy that species actually do evolve to other species if given enough time.

Why not? If I demonstrate that a rainbow today is formed by light passing through raindrops does that mean that I cannot conclude that rainbows formed before humans existed formed the same way?

If I can demonstrate that natural selection occurs in living species today, why am I barred from concluding that it was happening in pre-Cambrian species too? If I can produce a speciation event in a laboratory today, why can I not conclude that such speciation events occur under suitable conditions in nature and always have since there was life on earth?

Read my lips! I believe all plant and animal life forms God created before or after the Cambrian period were created "fully-formed," with the God given ability to procreate after their own kind.

Well, I am glad we have that cleared up, though I am still not sure you are aware that species which are neither plant nor animal are more numerous than all species of plants and animals put together.

I still don't know what you mean by "fully-formed" though.

Do you have no response to the other issues I raised in my last post?

Mallon · Sep 18, 2009

John 10:10 said:
On this point we will just have to disagree. I do believe that when science constructs and tests a hypothesis, and cause/affects are validated to a high degree of accuracy, then we can know this science as FACT or scientific truths/laws.

Oh. In that case, evolution is FACT. You said it yourself.

John 10:10 · Sep 18, 2009

gluadys said:
Why not? If I demonstrate that a rainbow today is formed by light passing through raindrops does that mean that I cannot conclude that rainbows formed before humans existed formed the same way?

If I can demonstrate that natural selection occurs in living species today, why am I barred from concluding that it was happening in pre-Cambrian species too? If I can produce a speciation event in a laboratory today, why can I not conclude that such speciation events occur under suitable conditions in nature and always have since there was life on earth?

Well, I am glad we have that cleared up, though I am still not sure you are aware that species which are neither plant nor animal are more numerous than all species of plants and animals put together.

I still don't know what you mean by "fully-formed" though.

Do you have no response to the other issues I raised in my last post?

Because you can test and validate in a laboratory today what causes a rainbow that we can see in the sky.

When you can do this in a laboratory from start to finish showing how a single cell life form then evolves to a fully-formed species, and then evolves further to other fully-formed species, then you will have vaidated the ToE. Until then .........................

Fully-formed means "instantly God created," no matter what kind of plant and animal life form or species that is being considered. Science can examine inanimate matter that exists today, and determine many scientific truths/FACTS concerning what they are and how they came to be because they can be tested/validated from start to finish in a laboratory. No so with animate matter. All science can do with some certainty is take God created life, learn how it works, and learn how to bring healing when animate species don't work as God created them to work.

Science CANNOT determine with any certainty how God created animate life form/species that existed in the past and exist today.

John 10:10 · Sep 18, 2009

Mallon said:
Oh. In that case, evolution is FACT. You said it yourself.

Everyone is entitled to their own set of opinions, but not to their own set of FACTS.

FACTS are pesky little things. FACTS deal with things as they are, or how things came to be as they are. They must be validated to be true to a high degree of accuracy before they can be called FACTS or scientific truths.

God has allowed man with His help to discover many things concerning the wonders of His creation. But the ToE will always remain just that, a THEORY, because it cannot be validated to be true from the start, however evolutionists want to believe it started, to life forms/species that exist today.

I'm reminded of the scientist who challenged God to a man creation contest. God accepted the challenge. As the scientist reached down to grab some dirt, God said, "No no, you go get your own dirt."

Man can take the things that God created and discover many wonderfull truths concerning His creation. But much that is being done today in the name of science totally leaves God out of His creation, both past and present. When man does this, man becomes his own god, and deception follows, including scientific deception, calling things FACT when they are no such thing.

gluadys · Sep 18, 2009

John 10:10 said:
Because you can test and validate in a laboratory today what causes a rainbow that we can see in the sky.

And you can test and validate in a laboratory today what causes species to evolve and differentiate into new species.

When you can do this in a laboratory from start to finish showing how a single cell life form then evolves to a fully-formed species, and then evolves further to other fully-formed species, then you will have vaidated the ToE. Until then .........................

Fully-formed means "instantly God created," no matter what kind of plant and animal life form or species that is being considered.

So, given this definition of "fully-formed" an acceptable validation of the theory of evolution in a laboratory would be to cause God to produce an instantaneous creation.

Science can examine inanimate matter that exists today, and determine many scientific truths/FACTS concerning what they are and how they came to be because they can be tested/validated from start to finish in a laboratory. No so with animate matter.

What makes you think that? You keep saying it, but there doesn't seem to be a rational basis for the assertion.

All science can do with some certainty is take God created life, learn how it works, and learn how to bring healing when animate species don't work as God created them to work.

And learn how they evolve. Evolution, after all, is a big part of how they work.

Science CANNOT determine with any certainty how God created animate life form/species that existed in the past and exist today.

True but that is no bar to discovering how they evolved in the past and in the present.

John 10:10 · Sep 18, 2009

It's been an enlightning discussion. I'm sure I have not changed your minds one iota, and vice versa.

I still believe that God created all animal and human life forms instantly as fully-formed adults that then reproduced after their own kinds, and you believe God worked thru something called theistic evolution, and that science knows this as scientific FACT.

I think we've exhausted the subject, and seem to keep going in circles. I wish all theistic evolutionists well as you discover the wonders of your Creator, Redeemer and Lord.

I must also say that those who believe in theistic evolution of all life forms speak no differently than those who believe in the Godless ToE, and their understanding of how science truly works and determines FACTS is no difference either.

Blessings

JusSumguy · Sep 18, 2009

John 10:10 said:
I still believe that God created all animal and human life forms instantly as fully-formed adults that then reproduced after their own kinds,

Yeah.... I guess I'm a hybrid TE as I'm gonna have to agree with this.

As far as science can conclusively say..... man, and all species, just start.

All ties to previous species, while appraoched with good reasoning, are not scientifically conclusive.

The Bible also tells us that this is true as well.

I dunno....... Doesn't seem to be any PROOF that any higher species has ever evolved into another.

I do believe that EVO took place, and was prolly Gods most useful tool. As it was something he could set in motion to cover a swath of actions, and leave to it own accord. But I also believe that Man just started.

For sure though, a very interesting thread.

-

gluadys · Sep 18, 2009

John 10:10 said:
I wish all theistic evolutionists well as you discover the wonders of your Creator, Redeemer and Lord.

We do, all the time. And I wish the same for you.

I must also say that those who believe in theistic evolution of all life forms speak no differently than those who believe in the Godless ToE, and their understanding of how science truly works and determines FACTS is no difference either.

Blessings

That's because science is science whether the scientist is godless or god-fearing.

There is no God-less theory of evolution any more than there is a God-less theory of atomic structure. There is only a scientific theory of evolution, just like in the rest of science.

And just as there is no reason for a devout scientist and an agnostic scientist to be disagreeing about atomic structure, there is no reason for them to be disagreeing about evolution.

LightSeaker · Sep 19, 2009

John 10:10 said:
I wish all theistic evolutionists well as you discover the wonders of your Creator, Redeemer and Lord.

Thank You!! Yes, it is so very, very wonderful and such a blessing as well, to see our Creator God as being so very alive with in His own Creation.

.

How does one become a Theistic Evolutionist?

LightSeaker

Guest

Regular Member

Well-Known Member

Legend

Regular Member

Senior Veteran

Legend

Regular Member

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Legend

Senior Veteran

Regular Member

Regular Member

Legend

Regular Member

Active Member

Legend

LightSeaker

Guest

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency