How Does God Die "For" Sin

[bhar]

It's so common a phrase in Christianity that it's pased me by much of my life. It must have some surreal, metaphysical, hyper-dimensional meaning....because with the standard phrasing in the NT it really doesn't compute. I get that only God can deal finally with sin....but what does it mean...bottom line...."Jesus died for our sins?" Emphasis is on the word "For". How can God take the place of sin (evil), and where does the sin go? Philosophical answers very welcome.

 

[singpeace]

Sometimes people will say that Jesus can't be God because Jesus died and God cannot die. What they fail to understand is that Jesus has two natures: God and man. In theology we call this the hypostatic union. It is the teaching that in the one person of Christ are two distinct natures, the divine and human. It was the human nature that died on the cross, not the divine nature. But because Jesus is both divine and human, it is sometimes said, although not with the greatest accuracy, that God died on the cross.

So, God cannot die; but in the person of Christ, who is a man with the divine nature, we see a biological death, not the death of the divine being who is God.

 

[dayhiker]

2 Cor.5: 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I see death as separation. So Jesus as both God and man (two natures) in one person died. Jesus was separated from the Father because He took our sin upon us. Jesus died physically and thus experienced the separation from His body.

This conflict of God dying is seen clearly to be in Peter's sermon in Act.3: 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. How can the author of life die? But that is what Peter said happened.

We tend to think of death as the end. But when I view death as separation, then these things fit perfectly. Just as God can't cease to exist neither can we. God had no beginning. We did have a beginning. Both God and mankind have no ending. We will experience a separation that will be dealt with at the resurrection just as it was for Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

It's so common a phrase in Christianity that it's pased me by much of my life. It must have some surreal, metaphysical, hyper-dimensional meaning....because with the standard phrasing in the NT it really doesn't compute. I get that only God can deal finally with sin....but what does it mean...bottom line...."Jesus died for our sins?" Emphasis is on the word "For". How can God take the place of sin (evil), and where does the sin go? Philosophical answers very welcome.

The wicked will "have no rest day or night and will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb AND of his holy ones " in the fiery 2nd death due to the lost sinner. Rev 14:10-12.

1John 2:2 - "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" -- this is a direct statement about substitutionary atoning sacrifice. The doctrine on atonement is first described in Leviticus 16 "the Day of Atonement".

2Corinthians 5 (end of chapter) "He became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

Isaiah 53 "he took the stroke for us - those to whom the stroke was due".

God laid upon Christ - the sin of us all.

In Luke 12:48-55 you find that he who knew much and goes to hell - receives many stripes in hell - he who knew little - receives few.

As Luke 12 and Matt 18 demonstrate - although it is finite (Matt 10:28) and not infinite, there is a sin-and-suffering economy to hell - to the torment of the lake of fire. Christ supernaturally suffered all the torment owed for each sin for each person in all of time. The internal suffering of such magnitude was such as only God Himself could accommodate, could suffer.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[IisJustMe]

Jesus, being fully God and fully man, had two natures, but only one character, and it was sinless and perfect. He had no sin upon His life that deserved punishment, whereas we all have sin upon our lives that demand God's punishment, which He defined from the beginning as death. So God took upon Himself (Jesus) the punishment He did not deserve for the salvation of those who could not pay the price required to be cleansed of sin.

In that sense, He died "for" our sins, the sin that is upon our lives which we could not shed. It might help to read the "for" as the word "because", which is another meaning of "for."

 

[Echetus]

He took upon the transgressions of the World at the Cross, bearing our iniquity, dieing for our sin. But Jesus came not to condemn the World, but to save it by His Blood, which was perfect and Holy Blood, given by the Father to make atonement for us. Then after His death, He rose again on the 3rd day, because being God death was not able to hold Him. Then He ascended into Heaven, where He does now Reign, not over Earth where mankind had death for their corruption. Then because of our acceptance by God threw Faith in Jesus, He has shed out His Spirit upon us, sealing us with the promise of the Kingdom of Heaven in our hearts and members, making us new creatures, no longer held captive by the sinful flesh where it was iniquity unto iniquity and death unto death.

 

[Clare73]

It's so common a phrase in Christianity that it's pased me by much of my life. It must have some surreal, metaphysical, hyper-dimensional meaning....because with the standard phrasing in the NT it really doesn't compute. I get that only God can deal finally with sin....but what does it mean...bottom line...."Jesus died for our sinsb][/?" Emphasis is on the word "For". How can God take the place of sin (evil), and where does the sin go? Philosophical answers very welcome.

First of all, it means that Jesus died for the forgiveness of sin.

Secondly, forgiveness means to cancel a debt.

Jesus paid the debt that we owed God for our sin.
What debt was that?
Ultimately, we owe God obedience and glory.
Failure to give these to him (sin) creates a debt we owe him.
Jesus' death on the cross was accounted in the justice of God as payment of the debt owed by the sin of those who believe in him.

Hope this helps.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Hebrews 7, 8, 9 and 10 explains it better than I ever could.

 

[Harry3142]

bhar-

In Leviticus 16:1-22, we find the sacrifice that was necessary for the people of the Hebrew community to perform in order to have their sins removed from them. It involved a bull and two goats; the bull was sacrificed for the sins of the priests which had been committed during the previous year, and one of the goats was sacrificed for the sins which the people of the community had committed in the previous year. The blood of the bull was to cleanse the priests of their sins, and the blood of the one goat was to cleanse the community of their sins. But it didn't end there.

The second goat was kept alive. The priest put his hands on the head of that goat, and while his hands were on its head he recited all the sins which the entire community had committed in that year. This act transferred their sins to that goat. It was then immediately driven into the wilderness, taking their sins with it.

But, as Hebrews 8:1-10:14 illustrates, it was an imperfect sacrifice, needing to be performed annually. God himself laid out the blueprints for a perfect sacrifice which would cleanse all of their sins permanently after being performed only once. But this sacrifice could not be performed using bulls and goats; it couldn't even be performed using a human being, since we, being sinful, could never be a 'sacrifice without blemish'. Instead, it had to be performed via a being who was mortal even as we are, but who also was uniquely conceived so that he could be called divine in nature. And unlike us, he would be sinless from the time of his conception until his death on the cross.

There was only one means of having a man such as that come into existence, and that was through God's direct interaction with a human being in order to cause the birth of this perfect man to occur. So the holy Spirit caused Mary to conceive, with the child that she gave birth to being the Son of God himself. In the modern-day vernacular, his DNA was unlike any that had come before, or would ever come after his time among us.

Through Jesus' sacrifice, which he had freely entered into with God the Father prior to his coming to live among us (John 10:14-18), the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the entire world was accomplished. For those of us who accept this sacrifice as efficacious to us, cleansing us of our sins, his sacrifice has indeed cleansed us of our sins and has saved us from their consequences. Our unrighteousness has been replaced with God's own righteousness, given us as a gift because of our placing our faith in the efficacy of his Son's sacrifice on our behalf.

But note that I said, "For those of us who accept this sacrifice..." In order for it to cleanse a person of his sins, that person had to be willing to permit it to cleanse him of his sins. IOW, he had to get involved. If at the time that the sacrifices were taking place on The Day of Atonement under the ceremony of Leviticus 16, a person happened to pass by this ceremony as he proceeded on his journey, but merely continued on his way, that sacrifice would have failed to affect his sins. And that would have been due to his not actively permitting the blood of the one goat to cleanse him of his sins, nor his permitting his sins to be transferred to the head of the other goat, and thereby taken into the wilderness. In order for the ceremony to cleanse him of his sins he had to accept it as necessary for his own sins to be cleansed through the bloodletting, and then taken away into the wilderness.

In like manner, in order for Jesus Christ's sacrifice to truly atone for our sins, we have to accept that sacrifice as necessary for the cleansing of us from our sinfulness, as well as our accepting that God took our sins from us and laid them on Jesus Christ's head, thus making him sin in our place. If we ignore what Christ has already accomplished on our behalf, or even merely pay lipservice to his sacrifice while insisting that it is through our own obedience to any set of laws and commandments where our salvation is to be found or secured, then we are akin to the passerby who happened to be on his journey on The Day of Atonement, but didn't bother to participate in the cleansing sacrifice.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Theres various symbolisms which seem to speak to our sins (put upon Him). This is a simpler one


Mat 27:28 And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

As our sins be as scarlet also
　
Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Which seems to agree in this...

2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The working out of the whole thing, had them fulfilling His words in condemning him and doing what he had been determined all along. So finding things which bear witness to the Word of God in various places is like wow.

 

[tankerG]

2 Cor.5: 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I see death as separation. So Jesus as both God and man (two natures) in one person died. Jesus was separated from the Father because He took our sin upon us. Jesus died physically and thus experienced the separation from His body.

This conflict of God dying is seen clearly to be in Peter's sermon in Act.3: 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. How can the author of life die? But that is what Peter said happened.

We tend to think of death as the end. But when I view death as separation, then these things fit perfectly. Just as God can't cease to exist neither can we. God had no beginning. We did have a beginning. Both God and mankind have no ending. We will experience a separation that will be dealt with at the resurrection just as it was for Jesus.

Good explanation!

 

[Simonline]

It's so common a phrase in Christianity that it's pased me by much of my life. It must have some surreal, metaphysical, hyper-dimensional meaning....because with the standard phrasing in the NT it really doesn't compute. I get that only God can deal finally with sin....but what does it mean...bottom line...."Jesus died for our sins?" Emphasis is on the word "For". How can God take the place of sin (evil), and where does the sin go? Philosophical answers very welcome.

One needs to understand the atonement in the context of the entire Judeo-Christian Scriptures. To this end I recommend the book Christianity is Jewish by Edith Schaeffer (wife of the late Francis A. Schaeffer one of the greatest Christian philosophers of the twentieth century and founder (along with Edith) of the L'Abri fellowships around the world)

https://wipfandstock.com/store/Christianity_Is_Jewish

Alternatively check out the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries http://www.rzim.org/ a currently outstanding Christian philosopher who is more than able to answer your questions.

Or, if you prefer, Vishal Mangalwadi, yet another outstanding Christian philosopher of Indian ethnicity Revelation Movement :: Welcome

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Sometimes people will say that Jesus can't be God because Jesus died and God cannot die. What they fail to understand is that Jesus has two natures: God and man. In theology we call this the hypostatic union. It is the teaching that in the one person of Christ are two distinct natures, the divine and human. It was the human nature that died on the cross, not the divine nature. But because Jesus is both divine and human, it is sometimes said, although not with the greatest accuracy, that God died on the cross.

So, God cannot die; but in the person of Christ, who is a man with the divine nature, we see a biological death, not the death of the divine being who is God.

Except that it isn't the human creature Jesus of Nazareth who simultaneously exists as two natures but the Son/Word/Memre as the Second Person of the One Tri-Personal Divine Creator YHWH. He it is who simultaneously exists as both Divine Creator and human creature and yet the human creature is NOT the Divine Creator [i.e. Jesus of Nazareth is NOT God] any more than the Divine Creator is also the human creature [i.e. YHWH is NOT a man]?! The Son simultaneously exists as both Divine Creator and human creature but since the Divine Creator is Immortal then only as the human creature did the Son actually die upon the cross. Nevertheless, since the Son is a single Person who simultaneously exists as both Divine Creator and human creature then on the principle of Communcatio Idiomatum it can be said that God also died upon the cross (Acts.20:28(b)) just as it can also be said that a man brought the Creation into existence ex nihilo and forever sustains it in that same existence (Col.1:15-16)?!

Simonline.

 

[Simonline]

Jesus, being fully God and fully man, had two natures, but only one character, and it was sinless and perfect. He had no sin upon His life that deserved punishment, whereas we all have sin upon our lives that demand God's punishment, which He defined from the beginning as death. So God took upon Himself (Jesus) the punishment He did not deserve for the salvation of those who could not pay the price required to be cleansed of sin.

In that sense, He died "for" our sins, the sin that is upon our lives which we could not shed. It might help to read the "for" as the word "because", which is another meaning of "for."

With respect, your signature is not quite correct. The text should read 'AS [i.e. in the same way that...] iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.'(Prov.27:17)

 

[IisJustMe]

With respect, your signature is not quite correct. The text should read 'AS [i.e. in the same way that...] iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.'(Prov.27:17)

With respect, it's a direct quote.

Proverbs 27
NASB
17 Iron sharpens iron,
So one man sharpens another .

HCBS, ESV
17 Iron sharpens iron,
And one man sharpens another.

KJV
17 Iron sharpeneth iron;
So a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

NIV
17 As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

NCV
17 As iron sharpens iron, so people can improve each other.

The Message
17 You use steel to sharpen steel, and one friend sharpens another.
​

Depends on which version you use. The article is not at the beginning of the text in Hebrew, so it really shouldn't be there in the English, either. In a correct and literal translation, it is the "so" (or "and" as in the HCSB and the ESV) in the second line of the text.

 

[Amber Bird]

It's so common a phrase in Christianity that it's pased me by much of my life. It must have some surreal, metaphysical, hyper-dimensional meaning....because with the standard phrasing in the NT it really doesn't compute. I get that only God can deal finally with sin....but what does it mean...bottom line...."Jesus died for our sins?" Emphasis is on the word "For". How can God take the place of sin (evil), and where does the sin go? Philosophical answers very welcome.

I've found that's another question of mine as well
Especially when Isaiah 45:7 is there to make the question even more of a puzzlement.

God died to revoke that which his will brought into being. Because he chose not to forgive the first humans for making one ignorant choice. And so he condemned the entire human race for infinity, as punishment. Bearing the burden of sinner, when humans could never have been anything, even in deficit as ignorants, that God didn't create them to be in the beginning.


It's all very confusing.

 

[god's_pawn]

An explanation that may help is from the angle of God's Mercy and Justice. In most cases, when people think of someone showing mercy, it's thought of in the absence of justice. One is showing mercy instead of justice. With God however, justice must be served. How then do we receive God's mercy for our sins without taking from His justice? Christ's death on the cross is the key. Here we see God executing His justice without us having to pay for our sins. Thanks to Christ's death on the cross, we receive mercy through justice. Jesus did for our sins in the place of us. Thus, God's justice is satisfied, and we receive His mercy without penalty.

 

[lamikin]

It's so common a phrase in Christianity that it's pased me by much of my life. It must have some surreal, metaphysical, hyper-dimensional meaning....because with the standard phrasing in the NT it really doesn't compute. I get that only God can deal finally with sin....but what does it mean...bottom line...."Jesus died for our sins?" Emphasis is on the word "For". How can God take the place of sin (evil), and where does the sin go? Philosophical answers very welcome.

Hi bhar,
Don't feel like the lone ranger becasue it is inconceivable to me at times that Almighty God could be so loving that He would come to earth in the form of a man and die for us. Scripture says:

"For in him dwelleth all the Godhead bodily" Colossians 2:9

So Jesus was God incarnate.

You have to remember that this all started with the Old Covenant and Israel's inability to keep it and not sin.

"For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hysop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Saying, This Is The Blood Of The Testament Which God Hath Enjoined Unto You. Hebrews 9:19,20

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Hebrews 9:22

God forgave Israel and even shed His blood according to the Old Covenant under the Mosaic law. When Israel rejected Jesus, God in essence said, Fine I will take this to other people and if they believe they will be saved.

Since humanity is born with a sinful nature there is no remission for that except by the substitutionary death of Jesus for the forgiveness of our original sin nature.

I think that is why Jesus is called the Lamb of God because it was Jesus that bore our sins away, He the man Jesus was a sacrificial substitue for us. His divine nature didn't become sin.

 

[Emmy]

Dear bhar. God wanted us to repent for our sins and transgressions, Animal-Sacrifices were never right, and when the time came that all of us,
(Mankind) had been steeped deeply in sin and transgressions, and were unable to find any-one left without Sin, God gave us another chance.
Jesus-God-Son, paid the Prize which God`s Holy Law demanded, He gave His Life-Blood for our Redemption, out of Love for God and for Mankind. Jesus died that we might live.
When God accepted His Sacrifice we were redeemed, Jesus became our Saviour. Satan was vanquished on Golgotha, and we have another chance to return to God our Heavenly Father. Our sins are paid, and we can repay God with our sincere Love for God, with our hearts, with our souls, and with our minds. Also: by loving our neighbour as we love ourselves. Love is what God wants from us, freely given with no conditions made. Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love, also.
Jesus told us to " ask and ye will receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. (our neighbour) God will see us, and God will approve and bless us. I say this with love, bhar. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's so common a phrase in Christianity that it's pased me by much of my life. It must have some surreal, metaphysical, hyper-dimensional meaning....because with the standard phrasing in the NT it really doesn't compute. I get that only God can deal finally with sin....but what does it mean...bottom line...."Jesus died for our sins?" Emphasis is on the word "For". How can God take the place of sin (evil), and where does the sin go? Philosophical answers very welcome.

When theologians describe trying to describe the Mystery of the Atonement, they often speak of "Atonement Theories", there have been a number proposed and described, either explicitly or implicitly, over the last two thousand years.

Chronologically, the most common Atonement Theories are these:

Recapitulation Theory (2nd century)
Ransom Theory (3rd century)
Satisfaction Theory (11th century)
Moral Influence Theory (11th century, but just about unanimously rejected in its time)
Penal Substitution Theory (16th century, based on Satisfaction Theory)
Christus Victor Theory (20th century, but is a revival of the Recapitulation and Ransom Theories)

Many theologians have also argued that it isn't necessary to see one theory to the exclusion of others; and that all of the extant Atonement Theories draw from different biblical language to describe the Atonement itself.

The fact that there have been so many ways and means of Christians trying to tackle this transcendent mystery should, at the very least, allow us to see at just how profound and transcendent the mystery is.

Something truly cosmically awesome transpired on Mt. Calvary, and we have--in the wake of that Event--been ever grasping to wrap our heads around it and trying to articulate it.

My recommendation is to look over the various views of the Atonement, read Scripture, and pursue understanding how and why the Christian Church has in various times and places sought to articulate the Mystery in these many ways.

Personally I subscribe to Christus Victor Theory, as I believe it speaks the loudest and most clearly concerning the biblical message and echoes the most ancient Christian language of the Atonement. I see some merit in the Satisfaction Theory, if perhaps only minimally, but in general view Penal Substitution as almost completely unacceptable, if only because the theological ramifications of the Theory, especially as popularly communicated today, are quite atrocious; presenting the chief obstacle to our salvation to be not Sin and Death, but God Himself. But this is a position I've come to only after many years.

-CryptoLutheran