How does evolution explain one genera of animals with spiritual beliefs

OrdinaryClay · Jul 1, 2009

Mallon said:
My mistake. I meant anthropocentric. My point still stands.

No, I'm not requiring the spirituality to be human oriented. I don't expect the evidence to be "in our image" physically or psychologically. I do expect some projected physical evidence that clearly indicates the great apes have a theory of mind sufficient to indicate a belief in the supernatural. No one claims we are being anthropocentric when we look for evidence of tool use or language in animals.

How do you mean?

I don't mean to be glib, but I've already answered this. Scientific evidence. The same thing you expect from any scientific endeavour. Watching apes "ponder" or engage in repetitive behavior is not sufficient.

metherion · Jul 1, 2009

Watching apes "ponder" or engage in repetitive behavior is not sufficient.

But watching humans ponder (meditate) and engage in repetitive behavior (rituals) is? Several religions consist in a large part of those two things.

Metherion

Mallon · Jul 1, 2009

For what it's worth, I should point out that I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I really don't know whether non-human apes exhibit some form of spirituality or not. Does the pondering and repetitive behaviour of chimps constitute spirituality? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think we can say definitively one way or another. As such, I also don't think we can confidently say that humans are the only apes capable of spiritual behaviour.

brother_of_invention · Jul 1, 2009

Mallon said:
For what it's worth, I should point out that I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I really don't know whether non-human apes exhibit some form of spirituality or not. Does the pondering and repetitive behaviour of chimps constitute spirituality? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think we can say definitively one way or another. As such, I also don't think we can confidently say that humans are the only apes capable of spiritual behaviour.

That is precisely why I abandoned this thread as pseudoscience. Even proving that another human experiences spirituality would be difficult.

Assyrian · Jul 1, 2009

We could accuse you of solipsism but it might just be your imagination.

brother_of_invention · Jul 1, 2009

Assyrian said:
We could accuse you of solipsism but it might just be your imagination.

I wont resort to solipsism, but how could you prove to me that you experience spirituality? And btw, "rituals, shrines, artifacts and talismans" dont cut it, as spirituality is a mental phenomenon.

Maybe I could chew on your pituitary gland and see if any dimethyltrytamine leeks out?

OrdinaryClay · Jul 1, 2009

metherion said:
But watching humans ponder (meditate) and engage in repetitive behavior (rituals) is? Several religions consist in a large part of those two things.

We don't need every human to engage in the exact same behavior to conclude humans have deeply spiritual psyches. There exists people who demonstrate zero outward spiritual behavior. I still know given the totality of evidence that humans are deeply spiritual .

The evidence for spirituality in humans is leagues beyond what is being proposed for the great apes. We incessantly project our spiritual beliefs onto the outside world in observable ways. This is one of the reasons God has such strong admonitions to idolatry.

OrdinaryClay · Jul 1, 2009

Mallon said:
For what it's worth, I should point out that I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I really don't know whether non-human apes exhibit some form of spirituality or not. Does the pondering and repetitive behaviour of chimps constitute spirituality? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't think we can say definitively one way or another. As such, I also don't think we can confidently say that humans are the only apes capable of spiritual behaviour.

Obviously, I disagree, but we are past that portion I guess.

Let me play devil's advocate too ...

If apes do have spiritual needs why is there no evidence of salvation revelation to the great apes? If a person believes in salvation through Christ then they must conclude that this is at least a relevant question. If a person just concludes the apes are hiding that too, then the whole argument in favor of spiritual apes starts to look like the same type of argument evolutionists say are wrong with creationist arguments. No explanatory power. Never observable.

OrdinaryClay · Jul 1, 2009

brother_of_invention said:
That is precisely why I abandoned this thread as pseudoscience. Even proving that another human experiences spirituality would be difficult.

Sociologists and Psychologists don't consider what they do to be pseudoscience.

Assyrian · Jul 1, 2009

brother_of_invention said:
I wont resort to solipsism, but how could you prove to me that you experience spirituality? And btw, "rituals, shrines, artifacts and talismans" dont cut it, as spirituality is a mental phenomenon.

Maybe I could chew on your pituitary gland and see if any dimethyltrytamine leeks out?

Sorry do you mean prove that spiritual experience involves a connection to a non material reality beyond the study of science? I would have though the existence of the spiritual was matter of faith rather than proof. Or do you mean that humans from very different backgrounds and throughout history share similar experiences that they can recognise from the descriptions of others, that they call spiritual experience?

Mental phenomena, and spiritual experience is by it nature experienced at least in part mentally, are subjective. As such we can never experience what another person has experienced, but people can usually try to put their experience in some sort of words and find that there are others who have experiences of their own who can relate to what the other person has expressed. Prove? No, and solipsism shows it could never be proven, but I think the simplest explanation is when two people describe an experience they consider spiritual, and relate to what the other describes, then both are describing something very similar that is part of human experience and has been called many who experience it spiritual or religious.

brother_of_invention · Jul 1, 2009

Assyrian said:
Sorry do you mean prove that spiritual experience involves a connection to a non material reality beyond the study of science? I would have though the existence of the spiritual was matter of faith rather than proof.

no, I mean: prove to me that similar neural pathways are stimulated in your mind, causing a similar experience of spirituality.

Obviously the non-material aspect must be taken on faith, but we study what we can.

Or do you mean that humans from very different backgrounds and throughout history share similar experiences that they can recognise from the descriptions of others, that they call spiritual experience?

Not my original intent, but very true. Carl Jung called it the collective unconscious, but we must delve deeper than psychology if we want to relate our findings to other primates.

What neurotransmitters are involved in the spiritual state? What specific regions, pathways, and receptors are active? What radiation is emitted?

Mental phenomena, and spiritual experience is by it nature experienced at least in part mentally, are subjective. As such we can never experience what another person has experienced, but people can usually try to put their experience in some sort of words and find that there are others who have experiences of their own who can relate to what the other person has expressed. Prove? No, and solipsism shows it could never be proven, but I think the simplest explanation is when two people describe an experience they consider spiritual, and relate to what the other describes, then both are describing something very similar that is part of human experience and has been called many who experience it spiritual or religious.

Right. Without resorting to solipsism, I am convinced that you experience spirituality.

However, the requirement of a description automatically eliminates all other known creatures, and sharing a language with humans should not be necessary for spirituality. This is why I suggest we work with more of a 'hard science' when applying spirituality to another species.

Notedstrangeperson · Jul 2, 2009

From what I've gathered, secular evolutionists believe humans are capable of abstract thought (the use of symbolism for example) - and one of the 'side-effects' of this abstract thinking was the invention of a God and an afterlife. Obviously as a theistic evolutionist, I personally do not believe this.

Other animals do display ritual behaviour, but it is not the same as human religions as their rituals do not seem aimed at any sort of supernatural entity.

Chesterton · Jul 2, 2009

OrdinaryClay said:
How does evolution explain the fact that only one genera of animals with spiritual beliefs and behaviors has ever been produced on earth?

Well, there is a Praying Mantis.

Hallelujah!

metherion · Jul 3, 2009

But not all religions necessarily require a god or gods...

such as IIRC Buddhism, no?

So the supernatural need not be a requirement for spirituality.

Just sayin'.

Metherion

OrdinaryClay · Jul 3, 2009

Chesterton said:
Well, there is a Praying Mantis.

Beautiful picture. Wonderful example of mimicry.

OrdinaryClay · Jul 3, 2009

metherion said:
But not all religions necessarily require a god or gods...

such as IIRC Buddhism, no?

So the supernatural need not be a requirement for spirituality.

Buddhism has such ideas as karma and rebirth so they have super natural components, but I suppose there are purely materialist Buddhists just as there are atheist "Christians".

In any event, my point is that there are observable features of true spirituality within a species, not necessarily individuals, beyond "pondering".

metherion · Jul 3, 2009

Buddhism has such ideas as karma and rebirth so they have super natural components, but I suppose there are purely materialist Buddhists just as there are atheist "Christians".

Point taken, but because of other primates' lack of language we might not know that/if they are thinking of such things.

In any event, my point is that there are observable features of true spirituality within a species, not necessarily individuals, beyond "pondering".

Such as certain rituals preformed at the death of a member of the tribe, etc. etc. etc.

Metherion

Chesterton · Jul 3, 2009

metherion said:
Point taken, but because of other primates' lack of language we might not know that/if they are thinking of such things.

Yeah, what can we possibly know for sure of animal consciousness? It's like speculating on what's inside a closed box, isn't it?

OrdinaryClay · Jul 3, 2009

Chesterton said:
Yeah, what can we possibly know for sure of animal consciousness? It's like speculating on what's inside a closed box, isn't it?

Not at all. Minds interact with the physical world. This interaction leaves evidence.

Chesterton · Jul 3, 2009

OrdinaryClay said:
Not at all. Minds interact with the physical world. This interaction leaves evidence.

Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. But even where it does, how do you interpret the evidence? If an alien were spying on earth and watched different groups of humans doing different things - say he sees some strippers dancing nude in a club, some people working on a construction site, and some people praying - how could he possibly know which, if any, of those activities were spiritual? (Bearing in mind that the alien has no communication with human thought - through literature, art, history or anything else. After all, animals have none of these things, not even history really; horses think and do in 2009 the same things horses thought and did in 2009 B.C.)

How does evolution explain one genera of animals with spiritual beliefs

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