How does Calvinism work, exactly?

sgs83 said:

For context, I’m coming at this as an agnostic who’s very interested in religion. Growing up, I went to a conservative evangelical church that taught the sort of modified Arminianism that’s common in America (free will with, paradoxically, eternal security). I’m intrigued that the Reformed view has been making a real comeback in recent years. I have two interconnected questions for any Calvinists reading this -

1. I want to make sure that I fully grasp the Reformed position. I’ve heard it articulated in two rather different ways:

A. Man is every bit as “free” as is in Arminianism with one major exception: he has no way whatsoever of accepting God’s gift of salvation. Man is so fallen that he is only capable of freely choosing damnation and corruption. Just as a dog’s nature inevitably compels him to choose a poisoned steak over a plate of vegetables, man will choose hell over heaven every time. If a person is saved, therefore, it is because God unilaterally steps in and compels belief.

Thus, humanity is like a group of wheelchair-bound paraplegics tasked with climbing a mile-high mountain. No one deterministically directs their movements around the mountain; they are free as far as it goes. But they are physically incapable of climbing the mountain.

According to Calvinism, God snatches up certain paraplegics with a giant crane and drops them atop the mountain, whether or not these paraplegics want to go. These people are the elect. The unelect are out of luck since the crane is the only way to the top, and God has chosen not grab them.

Arminianism, in contrast, teaches that God lowers a massive elevator and invites everyone to the top. It’s up to the individual paraplegics whether or not they want to go.

So in short, when referring to the absolute Sovereignty of God, Calvinists mean that God alone determines who will and will not accept His plan of salvation.

B. Every last detail of the universe is predetermined down to and beyond the subatomic level. Every word that I am presently typing originates from God, and He has willed for me to type these particular words at this particular Starbucks in Atlanta, GA at this particular point in history, 9:06 PM on Friday January 11, 2013 A.D. In film geek parlance, God is the ultimate auteur: the screenwriter/director/cinematographer/producer/editor/marketer etc. etc. etc. of the uber-budgeted epic of the universe.

Obviously, then, God alone decides who will accept His plan of salvation just like He alone controls absolutely everything else that goes on.

So in short, when referring to the absolute Sovereignty of God, Calvinists mean that God controls absolutely everything that happens in the universe down to the smallest detail, including whether or not individuals accept his plan of salvation.

These strike me as fairly different views, but I’ve heard Calvinism described both ways. It would seem possible to characterize a “A” as single predestination (since God foreordains who will be saved but does not foreordain sin) and “B” as double predestination (since God, indeed, foreordains everything). But I’ve actually heard “A” described as double predestination, which seemed odd. I could also envision various intermediate positions between the two extremes.

Also, I recognize that “B” is not technically pantheism, but it strikes me as vaguely pantheistic, as if everything down to the tiniest molecule is an extension of God’s consciousness. I understand that in “B” Calvinism God is a separate being set over and above creation, and that creation reflects God’s will down to the tiniest detail but is nevertheless set apart God, whereas in pantheism creator and creation are interconnected and are in fact the same. But thinking that God is author of our thoughts, in particular, evokes a kind of eastern/pantheistic interconnectedness. I am sure that you all feel very differently.

2. I suppose this is sort of a compound question - What theological propositions must a person accept, at absolute minimum, to be considered a saved Christian. How do you justify these requirements Biblically? Must one have perfect theological beliefs to be saved? If not, why would God elect someone but then imbue them with imperfect beliefs? Are Arminians saved? Are Roman Catholics? If Arminians are saved but not Roman Catholics, how do you justify this position since both parties believe that “works” are necessary for salvation (even if the Arminians don’t realize that they believe this).

Thanks for listening, and I look forward to any answers.

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I can't answer for anyone but myself. You have actually posited 2 charicaturizations(sp?) of Calvinism. Neither one is actully true. God is absolutely sovereign. If He weren't He couldn't be trusted. Whatever He doesn't control must impact Him as it does us, it controls. The things we do not control control us. We are forced to react to those things and that gives those things control. If God has to react He changes and if He changes He cannot be trusted. His promises are as worthless as ours and He is not really God.

The truth of Calvinism is actually that God's electing love leaves out no one who truly wants in. He nevers forces us to believe against our will but makes us willing. He draws us with chords of love. He works in us and for us giving us life and faith in Christ Jesus the Savior. If it weren't for God's electing love no one would be saved. God doesn't owe us anything. Well He does owe us eternal damnation but chose to save some as the objects of His infinite mercy grace and love. He isn't obligated to give us salvation yet He does. The wonder of it is that He saves any.

Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith says about God's redemptive plan. Most Calvinists subscribe to this.




Section 1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:1 yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.3

1 Eph. 1:11; Rom. 11:33; Heb. 6:17; Rom. 9:15, 18
2 James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5
3 Acts 2:23; Matt. 17:12; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Prov. 16:33

Section 2 Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions;4 yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.5

4 Acts 15:18; 1 Sam. 23:11, 12; Matt. 11:21, 23
5 Rom. 9:11, 13, 16, 18

Section 3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels6 are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.7

6 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41
7 Rom. 9:22, 23; Eph. 1:5, 6; Prov. 16:4

Section 4 These angels and men, thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number is so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.8

8 2 Tim. 2:19; John 13:18

Section 5 Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory,9 out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;10 and all to the praise of his glorious grace.11

9 Eph. 1:4, 9, 11; Rom. 8:30; 2 Tim. 1:9; 1 Thess. 5:9
10 Rom. 9:11, 13, 16; Eph. 1:4, 9
11 Eph. 1:6, 12

Section 6 As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, foreordained all the means thereunto.12 Wherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ;13 are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified,14 and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.15 Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified and saved, but the elect only.16

12 1 Pet. 1:2; Eph. 1:4, 5; 2:10; 2 Thess. 2:13
13 1 Thess. 5:9, 10; Tit. 2:14
14 Rom. 8:30; Eph. 1:5; 2 Thess. 2:13
15 1 Pet. 1:5
16 John 17:9; Rom. 8:28; John 6:64, 65; 10:26; 8:47; I John 2:19


Section 7 The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonour and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.17

17 Matt. 11:25, 26; Rom 9:17, 18, 21, 22; 2 Tim. 2:19, 20; Jude 4; 1 Pet. 2:8

Section 8 The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,18 that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.19 So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God,20 and of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation, to all that sincerely obey the gospel.21

18 Rom. 9:20; 11:33; Deut. 29:29
19 2 Pet. 1:10
20 Eph. 1:6; Rom. 11:33
21 Rom. 11:5, 6, 20; 2 Pet. 1:10; Rom. 8:33; Luke 10:20

sgs83 said:

A. ... According to Calvinism, God snatches up certain paraplegics with a giant crane and drops them atop the mountain, whether or not these paraplegics want to go. These people are the elect. The unelect are out of luck since the crane is the only way to the top, and God has chosen not grab them.

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Your first example worked up to this point, when you said "whether or not these paraplegics want to go". It's not always easy to make analogies work, because there really is nothing to compare election to in the world around us.

It would be more like this: None of these parapalegics even wants to go. Ever wants to go. If God gives them exactly what they want at this time, none of them will ever make it to the top of the mountain. It is because evey one of them has a "heart of stone."

However, God chooses to replace some of those stone hearts with hearts of flesh. Those who get the heart of flesh, now see what God has for them and wants it. Every one of them. Every time. And makes it to the top of the mountain.

Does that help? Apart from God regenerating the heart, nobody would ever want to choose Him.

GrinningDwarf is right: God doesn't force people to have faith against their will. He renews their heart and then will.

But the original question is a reasonable one. Predestination is really only about salvation. It need not include full determinism. The primary concept is that to save us, God has to renew us. That argument would work just fine in a world without strict determinism.

However in practice I would guess that most Calvinists are sort of determinists. Not necessarily in the Newtonian sense. But we do tend to believe that everything happens in accordance with God's plan.

The pastoral implications are interesting. My pastor was discussing that just last Sunday. What do you say to someone who has had a relative suffer and die. Do you say "don't worry; it was God's plan." It sort of sounds like it makes God heartless. But on further thought I'm not so sure. It seems like the only thing worse than saying God was in control when your loved one suffered is saying that God wasn't in control.

I'm not taking a personal position on this. I have some sympathy with process theology. But you asked about Reformed theology, and I think the traditional Reformed position has a lot to be said for it.

GrinningDwarf said:

Your first example worked up to this point, when you said "whether or not these paraplegics want to go". It's not always easy to make analogies work, because there really is nothing to compare election to in the world around us.

It would be more like this: None of these parapalegics even wants to go. Ever wants to go. If God gives them exactly what they want at this time, none of them will ever make it to the top of the mountain. It is because evey one of them has a "heart of stone."

However, God chooses to replace some of those stone hearts with hearts of flesh. Those who get the heart of flesh, now see what God has for them and wants it. Every one of them. Every time. And makes it to the top of the mountain.

Does that help? Apart from God regenerating the heart, nobody would ever want to choose Him.

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Amen. Well said.

sgs83 said:

For context, I’m coming at this as an agnostic who’s very interested in religion. Growing up, I went to a conservative evangelical church that taught the sort of modified Arminianism that’s common in America (free will with, paradoxically, eternal security). I’m intrigued that the Reformed view has been making a real comeback in recent years. I have two interconnected questions for any Calvinists reading this -

1. I want to make sure that I fully grasp the Reformed position. I’ve heard it articulated in two rather different ways:

A. Man is every bit as “free” as is in Arminianism with one major exception: he has no way whatsoever of accepting God’s gift of salvation. Man is so fallen that he is only capable of freely choosing damnation and corruption. Just as a dog’s nature inevitably compels him to choose a poisoned steak over a plate of vegetables, man will choose hell over heaven every time. If a person is saved, therefore, it is because God unilaterally steps in and compels belief.

Thus, humanity is like a group of wheelchair-bound paraplegics tasked with climbing a mile-high mountain. No one deterministically directs their movements around the mountain; they are free as far as it goes. But they are physically incapable of climbing the mountain.

According to Calvinism, God snatches up certain paraplegics with a giant crane and drops them atop the mountain, whether or not these paraplegics want to go. These people are the elect. The unelect are out of luck since the crane is the only way to the top, and God has chosen not grab them.

Arminianism, in contrast, teaches that God lowers a massive elevator and invites everyone to the top. It’s up to the individual paraplegics whether or not they want to go.

So in short, when referring to the absolute Sovereignty of God, Calvinists mean that God alone determines who will and will not accept His plan of salvation.

B. Every last detail of the universe is predetermined down to and beyond the subatomic level. Every word that I am presently typing originates from God, and He has willed for me to type these particular words at this particular Starbucks in Atlanta, GA at this particular point in history, 9:06 PM on Friday January 11, 2013 A.D. In film geek parlance, God is the ultimate auteur: the screenwriter/director/cinematographer/producer/editor/marketer etc. etc. etc. of the uber-budgeted epic of the universe.

Obviously, then, God alone decides who will accept His plan of salvation just like He alone controls absolutely everything else that goes on.

So in short, when referring to the absolute Sovereignty of God, Calvinists mean that God controls absolutely everything that happens in the universe down to the smallest detail, including whether or not individuals accept his plan of salvation.

These strike me as fairly different views, but I’ve heard Calvinism described both ways. It would seem possible to characterize a “A” as single predestination (since God foreordains who will be saved but does not foreordain sin) and “B” as double predestination (since God, indeed, foreordains everything). But I’ve actually heard “A” described as double predestination, which seemed odd. I could also envision various intermediate positions between the two extremes.

Also, I recognize that “B” is not technically pantheism, but it strikes me as vaguely pantheistic, as if everything down to the tiniest molecule is an extension of God’s consciousness. I understand that in “B” Calvinism God is a separate being set over and above creation, and that creation reflects God’s will down to the tiniest detail but is nevertheless set apart God, whereas in pantheism creator and creation are interconnected and are in fact the same. But thinking that God is author of our thoughts, in particular, evokes a kind of eastern/pantheistic interconnectedness. I am sure that you all feel very differently.

2. I suppose this is sort of a compound question - What theological propositions must a person accept, at absolute minimum, to be considered a saved Christian. How do you justify these requirements Biblically? Must one have perfect theological beliefs to be saved? If not, why would God elect someone but then imbue them with imperfect beliefs? Are Arminians saved? Are Roman Catholics? If Arminians are saved but not Roman Catholics, how do you justify this position since both parties believe that “works” are necessary for salvation (even if the Arminians don’t realize that they believe this).

Thanks for listening, and I look forward to any answers.

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Hello and thanks for the question.

Very simply, Calvinists believe that God is the Originator and Author of everything. If He is not Sovereignly in control, then we have to say that His creation is in control. It can't be both. The universe itself is organized and runs like a perfectly-timed-machine. This doesn't happen by random chance. He operates everything He created, including human hearts.

(Grinningdwarf's answer is a good one, as well as hedrick).

God existed before anything in His creation did. He controls and sovereignly plans it all, and according to Psalm 139, "All of our days were written in His book BEFORE one of them came to be."

I only responded to God because He came to me first. If He had not come to me first, I would never have sought Him or responded to Him.

GrinningDwarf said:

Your first example worked up to this point, when you said "whether or not these paraplegics want to go". It's not always easy to make analogies work, because there really is nothing to compare election to in the world around us.

It would be more like this: None of these parapalegics even wants to go. Ever wants to go. If God gives them exactly what they want at this time, none of them will ever make it to the top of the mountain. It is because evey one of them has a "heart of stone."

However, God chooses to replace some of those stone hearts with hearts of flesh. Those who get the heart of flesh, now see what God has for them and wants it. Every one of them. Every time. And makes it to the top of the mountain.

Does that help? Apart from God regenerating the heart, nobody would ever want to choose Him.

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Ok ... This analogy here helps me understand Calvinism more. Thank you.

But, I have a question. God still could of chosen to give everyone a heart of flesh if he wanted to, right? But, He just chose to only give it to certain people?

alwaysJesus said:

But, I have a question. God still could of chosen to give everyone a heart of flesh if he wanted to, right? But, He just chose to only give it to certain people?

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Yes, that is correct.





Section 3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels6 are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.7

6 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41
7 Rom. 9:22, 23; Eph. 1:5, 6; Prov. 16:4

Elderone said:

Yes, that is correct.

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter 3, Of God’s Eternal Decree
​

Section 3 By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels6 are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death.7

6 1 Tim. 5:21; Matt. 25:41
7 Rom. 9:22, 23; Eph. 1:5, 6; Prov. 16:4

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Thanks Elderone. I'm not sure how to defend Calvinism if someone was to ask me why God would only choose to save some. How would I respond to that?

alwaysJesus said:

I'm not sure how to defend Calvinism if someone was to ask me why God would only choose to save some. How would I respond to that?

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Calvinism, a.k.a. Reformed Theology, comes completely from the Bible. One of the first things that should be remembered is that God is Sovereign.

The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will (see Eph. 1:11). His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted (see Isa. 46:11); nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign de jure (in principle), but sovereign de facto (in practice).

If you check the Internet for “Passages about the Sovereignty of God” there are many sites and hundreds of Bible passages.

In short, God does whatever He has planned, He is completely in charge.

Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 3, Of Gods Eternal Decree, says, in part, about that.

“Section 1 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"

Proof texts.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Rom 11:33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

Heb 6:17 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath,

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Here is a link to a good website that explains many things about Reformed theology, (Calvinism).

http://www.calvinistcorner.com/

Hope this helps.

Ok ... So, from those Bible verses and from what you've explained, it seems like the answer is pretty much, God chose to only save some because He can.

So pretty much I would just say that since God is in charge of everything then He can pretty much do as He please because He's holy and good. Is that right?

I need to digest all this in ...

He chose to have mercy and predestine some of His creation and sent His son Jesus to the cross to pay the price for their sins.

Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

It is a lot to take in but it is all Biblically based. Also, the Bible does NOT contradict itself so if you come to passages that seem to be doing that, your misunderstanding something.

Ok ... the popular belief I keep hearing is that Jesus died for all men. So, that would be unBiblical, right? He only died for those who the Father chose?

alwaysJesus said:

Ok ... the popular belief I keep hearing is that Jesus died for all men. So, that would be unBiblical, right? He only died for those who the Father chose?

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Jesus did not die for all men, he died for those whom His father gave him, the elect.

The L - Limited Atonment - of the TULIP doctrine answers your question more fully. Here is a very long explination with considerable Bible proof texts.

1. Westminster Confession of Faith III,5
Those of mankind that are predestined to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel of good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, to everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or Perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto; and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

III. LIMITED ATONEMENT
A. Arminian Position: Christ's death was designed to make salvation possible for all people. Christ's death made salvation possible for everyone, but it did not actually secure or guarantee the salvation of anyone. Fallen man determines whether or not Christ's work will be effective by his faith.

B. Reformed Position: Christ's death was designed to actually secure the salvation of all of God's chosen people. Christ's death secured and actually accomplished the salvation of all of God's chosen people. God has determined that all for whom Christ sacrificed Himself will be saved.

C. Scriptural Support for the Reformed Position

1. Christ's death is set forth in scripture as that which ACTUALLY accomplished salvation, not that which merely made salvation possible.
Rom.5:8 - Rom.5:10 (NKJ)
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
2Cor.5:18 - 2Cor.5:19 (NKJ)
18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Eph.2:15 - Eph.2:16 (NKJ)
15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
Col.1:21 - Col.1:22 (NKJ)
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight
Gal.3:13 - Gal.3:13 (NKJ)
13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
Titus.2:14 - Titus.2:14 (NKJ)
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.
Heb.9:12 - Heb.9:12 (NKJ)
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Luke.19:10 - Luke.19:10 (NKJ)
10 "for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
1Tim.1:15 - 1Tim.1:15 (NKJ)
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

2. Jesus Christ was sent into the world to save the people whom the Father had given Him.
John.6:35 - John.6:40 (NKJ)
35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
John.10:11 - John.10:11 (NKJ)
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John.10:14 - John.10:18 (NKJ)
14 "I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own.15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.16 "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.17 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again.18 "No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."
John.10:24 - John.10:29 (NKJ)
24 Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Eph.1:3 - Eph.1:4 (NKJ)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph.1:7 - Eph.1:7 (NKJ)
7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace
Eph.1:13 - Eph.1:13 (NKJ)
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

3. Christ's sacrificial and intercessory work as high priest is for those the Father had given Him, not for the world.
John.17:1 - John.17:11 (NKJ)
1 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: "Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You,2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.4 "I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do.5 "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.7 "Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You.8 "For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.9 "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.10 "And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.
John.17:20 - John.17:20 (NKJ)
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
John.17:24 - John.17:26 (NKJ)
24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.25 "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.26 "And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."
Heb.2:17 - Heb.2:17 (NKJ)

Part Two.


17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Heb.3:1 - Heb.3:1 (NKJ)
1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,
Heb.9:28 - Heb.9:28 (NKJ)
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

4. Christ's saving work was intended to save a particular people.
Matt.1:21 - Matt.1:21 (NKJ)
21 "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins."
John.10:11 - John.10:11 (NKJ)
11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John.10:15 - John.10:15 (NKJ)
15 "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.
John.10:26 - John.10:26 (NKJ)
26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
Acts.20:28 - Acts.20:28 (NKJ)
28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
Eph.5:25 - Eph.5:27 (NKJ)
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.
Rom.8:32 - Rom.8:34 (NKJ)
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.
John.15:13 - John.15:13 (NKJ)
13 "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
Matt.20:28 - Matt.20:28 (NKJ)
28 "just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."
Matt.26:28 - Matt.26:28 (NKJ)
28 "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Heb.9:28 - Heb.9:28 (NKJ)
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

5. Those for whom Christ died are an innumerable host from every tribe, tongue, people and nation in the world.
Rev.5:9 - Rev.5:9 (NKJ)
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
John.3:16 - John.3:17 (NKJ)
16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
John.4:42 - John.4:42 (NKJ)
42 Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."
2Cor.5:19 - 2Cor.5:19 (NKJ)
19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
1John.2:1 - 1John.2:2 (NKJ)
1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
1John.4:14 - 1John.4:14 (NKJ)
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
Rom.5:18 - Rom.5:18 (NKJ)
18 Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
2Cor.5:14 - 2Cor.5:15 (NKJ)
14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
1Tim.2:4 - 1Tim.2:6 (NKJ)
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
Heb.2:9 - Heb.2:9 (NKJ)
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
2Pet.3:9 - 2Pet.3:9 (NKJ)
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
Note: The Bible often uses the words all and world in a restricted, limited sense.
Luke.2:1 - Luke.2:2 (NKJ)
1 And it came to pass in those days that a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered.2 This census first took place while Quirinius was governing Syria.
1Cor.6:12 - 1Cor.6:12 (NKJ)
12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Cor.10:23 - 1Cor.10:23 (NKJ)
23 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are helpful; all things are lawful for me, but not all things edify.
John.12:32 - John.12:32 (NKJ)
32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
1Cor.15:22 - 1Cor.15:22 (NKJ)
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

That should be enough intellectual ammunition to keep you going for a while.

thank you for that ... I'm going to go over that as much as I can ...

alwaysJesus said:

Ok ... So, from those Bible verses and from what you've explained, it seems like the answer is pretty much, God chose to only save some because He can.

Click to expand...

The truth is, we don't really know why. We do know that God is not capricious, or following random whims, so I don't think we can say "God chose to only save some because He can." God has a reason for everything; He doesn't always share those reasons with us.

I asked the Lord once to please explain to me some of His purpose in election and predestination. He gave me this one thought:

"Just as in ONE human body there are only so many parts, so it is with HIM".

In other words, once each member of His body has been added to Him, then the body is complete. There are only so many members to one body, even a human body, and then the body is complete. In the Second Adam, we were chosen and foreknown because we were in Him, just as in Adam all die that were in the 1st earthly Adam.

God chose the members of His own body and predestined them before time to be His body. From Head to toe, (Jesus the Head, the body being the bride), there are only so many that make up that one body, that one New Man.

He helped me to see that election and predestination is His choosing of those IN Him from before the creation of the world were His plan, to make up His one body. Not all in this world are His Seed or are born of His Spirit. Only the wheat, the sheep are the of the Good Seed, which is Christ. These are His body, whom He chose and predestined.

Hope this helps.